Im a little confused about what determines the price/value of a goat. Can a dairy goat be non-pedigree but still be registered with AGDA as a dairy producer?

If you have a non-pedigree (or half-breed) that you successively breed back to , well the breed you want--what's that called and how does that affect value?

What difference does all this make to showing goats?

Why should I care about any of it? What should I care about with this stuff?

I know that many of us don't care a whit about pedigrees, registrations and such so don't tell me that because I UNDERSTAND that.

I really want to understand the fuss about THIS stuff that I can't understand.

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), January 18, 2002

Answers

Purebreds, pedigrees and all that stuff is valuable only if you want to breed outstanding dairy goats instead of crummy ones. You're going to be breeding dairy goats anyway---they won't milk otherwise---so the question is do you want to use all the resources available to breed better goats, or is mediocrity enough for you?

Purebreds are only valuable in that someone somewhere along the way concentrated certain desirable genes in an individual animal, allowing that animal a greater chance of passing those genes on to its offspring.

Not all purebreds are superior, by any means, but if they are, they are more likely to bestow that superiority on their kids than grade goats are, who have a wide variety of good and bad genes to send on to the next generation.

Some people find this predictability of value, and are willing to pay more for it. That's why purebreds bring extra money to their sellers...at least sometimes.

Non-pedigreed goats can be *recorded* by ADGA (not registered ever) and their records are kept in a seperate herdbook. By breeding recorded goats to purebred bucks, you can slowly upgrade, over several generations, to American status (but never purebred), which allows you to show in the same classes as purebreds, but usually doesn't make them as valuable as purebreds (with notable exceptions). There is still a strong prejudice against grade and American goats in some breeds, and this lowers their cash value.

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), January 18, 2002.

She explained it pretty well, but I'll add a little more. purebred means that the animal in quesion is descended only from the original imports of that breed. If you trace the pedigree all the way back as far as you can, you find only aniamls that came here from England, France, and so on. La Manchas are the exception here, they are an American breed and you can grade up to purebred status. As a result, there is little or no discrimination against American La Manchas, and they even give recognition and publicity to grades in their All American program. Alpines are another breed where American isn't such a bad thing. Some breeders, myself included, focus almost entirely on the American Alpine lines and use American bucks most of the time.

To answer your questions- Can a dairy goat be non-pedigree but still be registered with AGDA as a dairy producer? No. She can be recorded as a Recorded Grade. This is also the case if you buy a Purebred doe and can't get the papers. Purebreds and Americans have blue papers. Recorded Grades have brown papers.

If you have a non- pedigree (or half-breed) that you successively breed back to , well the breed you want--what's that called and how does that affect value? A half breed with recordation papers is a 50% grade ( let's say Saanen). If you breed her to a registered American or purebred Saanen buck, any does will be 75% Grade Saanen. The grade bucks can't be papered, they're meat. When you breed that 75% doe to another registered buck her doe kids are now Americans. Again, the bucks are meat. Buck kids from an American doe will be eligible for registration. The process of breeding back to papered sire to get American is called grading up. Value? Depends on the breed. Most of the value is going to be to the owner/breeder. I only mess with the grading up if the grade doe is really outstanding and special. Otherwise, it's cheaper and a lot faster to just go out and buy the best stock in the country.

What difference does all this make to showing goats? You can only show goats that have papers, whether they are grades or registered. Horned goats also cannot be shown, papers or not.

Why should I care about any of it? What should I care about with this stuff? Because- when someone goes to the trouble of papering their goats (and the expense), most of us are serious about what we do and the breedings we make. We're breeding for BETTER goats, not just snobbier ones. We want does that produce more milk, that live longer, that have better udders, easy to milk teats, and good bodies that won't fall apart while she is still young. Have you ever had to deal with raising a doeling and then she never gives even enough milk to feed her kids? Or a doe with teeny teats, an udder that hangs almost to the ground, or a deofrmed mouth with teeth that stick out? It's not to say that you'll never find a registered doe with these defects, but usually when you buy a registered doe, other people have been working for years trying to improve her, getting the faults out, breeding for better production. When you buy a registered goat, you are paying for the breeder's time and work that went into making her what she is. Even with what we get paid, we don't usually make any money on our goats, we do this for the love of it.

You also get records when you buy a registered goat, you can send to ADGA and get years worth of production records, reocrds that were taken with steps to discourage any kind of cheating or falsifying. You can get not only the records for the doe you are buying (if she was on test), but also those of the doe's mother, her grandmothers, and her great grand mothers. There is also type data, which tells you whether the doe had the kind of boy and udder to hold up under years of heavy production. Then there is the disease control which often (not always) comes with a registered goat. You're less likely to have to deal with the hassle and financial loss that comes with CAE, abcesses, and other nasty diseases, and the does have usually been wormed and vaccinated. Breeders of registered goats take a lot of pride in their work, because our reputation is riding on it. If you buy a doe from the auction and she's a cull, who will care? If you buy a doe from a breeder and she turns out bad, it's another story, it affects the reputation of the breeder who sold her to you.

In short, all I can say is that when you pay a little more for a papered doe from a reputable breeder, you are getting one GREAT deal!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 18, 2002.

Excellent post from Julia! LaMancha's do have an open herdbook, so if you purchased unregistered milking goats (they can not be from a known meat breed, pygmy, boer, spanish etc) and registered them to a purebred/registered buck, you could after several generations of kids with correct ear (breed character) have purebred LaMancha's. A very slow way to what you want in the end, and much more expensive than just buying good stock to begin with. But no other breeds have open herd books. Nubian American's are usually worth much less than Purebred Nubians, even in top herds. And you can't even give away some American bucks. The swiss breeds seem to be much less snippy about the whole thing, but if you look closely they still brag on sales lists that she is a French Alpine :)

Papers alone aren't going to cut it if you don't have good management, you can fool some of the people some of the time.......but big sales, for big money aren't coming from just recorded grades, or even purebreds who aren't being shown, or milk records, or something. And if you aren't heat treating and pasturising, you sales to new folks are about it.

You can't show a goat (well except in 4H) that is not registered. AGS and ADGA have sanctioned shows, judged by liscensed judges, most folks think goat shows are 4H and FFA events, but they really are much more than that, alot like in fact dog and horse shows, yes we have kids showing in open shows, but most of it is adults. Win 3 shows with more than 10 of the breed at the show and you win legs towards championship and the CH in front of your does name on her paperwork, probably the best thing to have to make more money off her kids. Milk her for 10 months, or go to a show that has a milking competition and earn your * that also goes in front of her name. You need all the bells and whistles to get the 500$ + for your kids, show records and excellent stock gets you the 350$ to 500$ for your kids. Does who are registered, who don't have show wins or milk records, but perhaps some stuff from ancestors on the 3 generation pedigree are usually 200$+ for their kids, and then you have the unregistered stock which around here is usually -100$. Their kids will only sell for less than 100$ and usually much less if sold in groups. Takes about a buck a day to keep a really good milker milking, so what do you want to sell her kids for to recoup your house milk? My kids are my cash crop, and I am not going to do all this work, then sell kids for 50$.

Your first question is iffy. Yes you can go on DHIR and have really good milk records on does who are not registered, but only in swiss breeds would this help you, and then only for export or dairy sales. In Nubians, its nice to have the milk records, but if she isn't purebred, and if she isn't registered with ADGA, then she isn't worth much.

And................I didn't make the rules, I just play by them. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 18, 2002.

Thank you all for explaining this to me. I can see why some people do this and some people don't. I doubt I'd show given the risk to health of farm animals. I know there are things you can do to reduce that risk, but I'd be worried I'd missed something.

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), January 18, 2002.

Ann, think about this. All the animals at the vet are ill, yet you take your stock there! At goat shows we are all there to improve our pedigrees, have varying degrees of huge amounts of money invested in our stock, I would think shows are the best place to go. I worry more about the visitors to my farm than going to shows. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 18, 2002.

There are far greater risks to showing goats than disease, Ann, for once you discover that it's fully half the fun involved in goatkeeping you'll never have another summer or fall weekend free....

-- Julia (charmer25@juno.com), January 18, 2002.

Ann, on the other side of the coin I think purebreds are over rated. For one there is something to be said for hybrid vigor. Another thing is if you cross a champion 6* Nubian and a champion 6* Alpine and then breed their offspring to a champion 6* saanen. Their kids may be inconsistent in things such as color and breed character, but they'll still be as likely to have good conformation and udders as a purebed would have. You may not get as much for grades but you haven't got as much in them,such as $for registration papers, $ for travel and shows to build a name so that you can command more $ for your animals. I like Alpines and my husband likes Nubians so instead of the hassle of keeping two different breeds we switch which breed of buck we get every few years. The result is still good udders and conformation. If milk for the family and a little side income is all your interested in I Think some well bred grades would serve you well.

-- cindyf (cindy@tctc.com), January 18, 2002.

Hi,

Most of the horse shows I went to were very political and closed to "outsiders" who weren't part of the "clique". I quit showing when I was told that I could pay a certain trainer to walk my colt in the arena and I'd get a blue. I didn't believe it, paid the guy, and I still have the blue ribbon to remind me why I hated showing horses towards the end.

I don't know that I would want to show goats if goat shows are like that. If winning depends on who you know, and who you got the goat from and if you know the judge, etc. and if you have the money to have a professional show it for you. Wouldn't seem like too much fun to me. I have a friend who shows dogs and she is a professional handler and she says dog shows (AKC) are pretty much the same way. Gotta have a ton of money to compete and it sure doesn't hurt if you know the right people.

Are goat shows pretty much the same as dog shows and professional horse shows? I am investing in registered goats because I prefer to know the parentage of the stock, but probably wouldn't show them if the shows were set up that way.

Cindy

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), January 18, 2002.

Well.... everyone has pretty much covered it for you. I will say this, that having papers is important if you are breeding for show quality and milk production. The value goes up, but only IF you have good stock. You might breed an awesome recorded grade and get more $ than a registered Pure or American. I've seen both.

Yes, a goat can be registered with ADGA if its not a pure or American. It is as mentioned a recorded grade, meaning that the animal fits certain breed standards, however its only does and not bucks, now don't hold me to that.

Registration impact on showing greatly, you cannot show unless you ahve your does registered with ADGA or AGS. There are a few exceptions such as small local county fairs.

Other benefits of having a goat registered is that you can participate in other programs by ADGA such as milk test and Linear appraisal. Besides show records, the DHIR and LA make the doe more valuable if there are strong and consistent genetics in the line for the breed. It can also depict porblems with crosssing certain lines as well. When you look at purchasing a registered goat look at the pedigrees and then see if there are triangles in the pedigree with certain lines, that means that the "good" genetics or "bad" are passed on such as on seeing low LA scores and DHIR. for example, I got to the USDA site a lot to look for doe and buck pedigree information. I recently checked up on this buck out of a 5,000 + pound milker. I then looked at the buck she had and he wasn;'t able to transmit the milk production on.

As for knowing breeders, judges, etc to influence show wins, well, that isn't the case so much in the goat world, but there certainly are a lot of feuds going on about politics.

here is my humble opinion on this, if you begin with good quality and sound stock you will never go wrong.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 19, 2002.

Boy! you guys are impressive! This is the best lesson on purebred goats I have read anywhere.

Russ

-- (imashortguy@hotmail.com), January 19, 2002.

Cindy asked: "Are goat shows pretty much the same as dog shows and professional horse shows? I am investing in registered goats because I prefer to know the parentage of the stock, but probably wouldn't show them if the shows were set up that way."

No, Cindy, goat shows aren't that way, at all. For the most part, people who show goats are extremely cooperative and friendly folk, who are very willing to help newcomers learn the ins & outs of the show circuit. Part of this flows from how ADGA, as the governing body, has structured shows. Uniquely, dairy goat judges are required to give clear, succinct reasons why they place the animals in each class as they do. It makes it easy to learn what works and doesn't work in conformation, and that is the point to shows---to learn to identify the traits that give you a long-lived, productive dairy goat.

I've been to dog shows (and heard about horse shows), and it never seemed to me that learning was the first priority there. Dairy goat shows are different, and you'll bump into lots of "the salt of the earth" types if you attend many.

Maybe that's why they're so addictive...

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), January 19, 2002.

Is it very expensive to attend a ADGA goat show or perhaps I should ask what is the average cost to show a goat in a confirmation class? Do you pay an registration fee to be listed at the show, then a class entry fee? Anyway, it might be fun to attend a couple of shows (without showing) to see what is expected and see what types of goats are winning.

Cindy

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), January 19, 2002.

Expensive to show dairy goats? Depends on what you call expensive. The entry fee per goat is usually $5 or $6 per show, although this varies from area to area. There's no 'registration' fee.

And it costs nothing to watch.

But there's the expense of fitting a doe for show---clippers, Show Sheen, tack box, whites to wear for the show, plus the gasoline to get there and back, and wear and tear on the truck. Some show folk bring stock panels and tarps to build themselves little shelters for their goats on the outskirts of the fairgrounds, to minimize exposure to other animals who might be diseased. Some bring portable milking machines to milk out their show string.

I guess you can spend as much as you want, really.

-- Julia (charmer24@juno.com), January 19, 2002.

As Julia mentioned it all depends on how much you want to spend. And I will add what your goals are as a breeder. Most shows are generally the cost for registration as julia mentioned. However, some of the more competitive shows like state fairs in some states and the aDGA Nationlas are more expensive. You pay for pens in addition to the fees. But...... in many shows and the state fairs you can win premiums and that offsets the costs if you place well enough in the class.

Start slow in showing, don't go overboard in accessories, get your basics like clippers and other supplies like show collars, etc. I am slowly building up our show supplies and have worked on a herd display this yr too. showing is fun and you get to meet all kinds of really nice folks.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 19, 2002.

And now because of the scrapie regs, its a health certificate for nearly every show you go to! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 20, 2002.