I have been trying to find the right phrase to distinguish the difference between the two, and I read the interview with Ralph Gibson on the thread and he said :

“I have spent forty years working with the Leica rangefinder. The rangefinder enables one to see what’s outside of the frame as well as what’s inside of the frame. You make a decision predicated on the presence and/or the absence of various aspects of the subject. With a reflex, the camera determines what is seen, and half the time it's out of focus. One could follow a reflex around the world and focus it from time to time until it came across a picture. With a rangefinder you see something, you make the exposure and you continue to look at what you’re seeing. The rangefinder is ideally matched to the perceptive act, the personal act of perception. I only use a reflex for extreme close-ups.”

I like the words ‘ perceptive act”

What is your thoughts on this ?

-- Tim Tan (kctan18@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002

Answers

ralph gibson needs to learn how to look at a scene without the camera up at his face if he ever wants to use an SLR effectively. He also needs to learn to use manual exposure and focusing on SLR's. I can see where he is going with his argument, but the way he portrays an SLR taking control of the scene is grossly exaggerated.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002.

Seeing outside the frame is a much vaunted but, IMHO, highly questionable benefit of RF cameras. It depends entirely on the frameline in use and on the viewfinder magnification; for instance, you don't get much of a view of what's outside the 28mm frame with a .72 body or even, for that matter, with a .58 body. I also agree with Matthew that Mr. Gibson needs to learn how to use an SLR to better advantage, so that his criticisms thereof can be better informed.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002.

I think he's just putting a lot of fancy words on a personal preference. The idea that SLR's are any less capable of producing excellent photography than M's is absurd.

Can you tell? I can't, and I _know_.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

Sorry, I should have said that one of those snaps was taken with an SLR, the other with a rangefinder.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

Rob,

Yeah, but you obviously missed the "decisive moment" with the SLR. (lol)

In my view, a rangefinder is just a tool, and like any other tool is good for somethings, and unsuitable for others. I'm of the opinion that it is counterproductive to argue RF vs. SLR - use what's right for the task. Where there are limitations with either, learn where you can work around those limitations, and where you can't.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), January 25, 2002.

Rob,

Two more examples of your work, thanks for sharing! To answer your riddle, I think the first was taken with a rangefinder and the second was taken with an SLR. My reasons:

The first, very dramatic picture has been carefully composed to exclude the face of one of the two murderers, no doubt the ringleader, as they hurry from the scene of their crime, leaving their pathetic young victim to expire tragically on the sidewalk (a.k.a. pavement). We are left wondering just who is this sadistic but, no doubt, highly professional assassin? This adds just the right amount of mystery to the picture and could only have been achieved by being able to see outside the frame (I know this contradicts my earlier post).

The second picture has the subject's eyes closed: exactly what can happen with the SLR's blackout at the moment of taking the picture. I suppose, to be fair, that another possibility is that the subject is in a state of rapture, induced by the proximity of the hurtling train as it thunders past her head while she inexplicably attempts to wash her clothing on the adjacent track. I doubt this is the case, as I have never heard of it happening, but there's always a first time.

;-)

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002.

Rob, very, very appealing photos! Regarding this argument, it just boils down to once again, which is the best SLR or RF? Bringing in fluffy language like "perceptive act" continues the myth that somehow those of us that use RF's are more worthy!

I agree about the framelines, I like many use a standard .72 finder with a 35mm, even with this set-up so little is actually visible outside the 35 mask that it makes little difference anyway - the 50 of course is a different story.

As has been said both types of camera have their merits but although I use an M4-P almost exclusively now I still feel a good AF AE SLR with a decent zoom is a far more comprehensive photographic tool.

In the past when using a SLR I have never experienced this "tunnel vision" that is often mentioned when comparing the SLR viewing to the RF, indeed with a zoom you can keep the view wide, observing all, then select your area of importance and "zoom in" to exclude the periphary elements.

The vast majority of pro's earn their money with an SLR, if they thought that they could earn it better with a RF then that is what they would carry!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), January 25, 2002.

The first one is a street boy trying to catch the attention of a couple of Yemeni tourists in downtown Bombay, while the second is a Gujarati washerwoman collecting her washing from the railway tracks (where she had spread them out to dry), waiting for a train to pass, again Bombay.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

Ray, you definitely have a future as a caption writer ;-).

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

I think the ability to see outside the frame does sometimes aid composition because it helps to suggest alternative framings for the shot. But I don't think it's a major advantage. Gibson's claim that with the SLR, the camera determines what is seen, seems to be a peculiar remark. It's not like I don't know what's out there before I look through my SLR! When I see something exciting, I shoot, with either camera. I don't think my composition is wildly different, either way.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 25, 2002.

I think you guys are missing the point somewhat. Obviously the same shot can be taken with both types of camera. What the r/f does is to tend to lead you into seeing and taking different types of pictures. Over a period of time using m6's my pictures have changed - the way that they are composed, the way that the edges of the frames have become more "central" to the picture etc. : more than anything, how much more important backgrounds have become in my compositions - when I used slrs I tended to either blur them out or crop them out. Now, clearly, if I started using slrs again extensively I could take the same pictures as I'm taking now. BUT, if I'd stayed with the slrs I don't think I'd take these kind of pictures at all. Let's face it, it's easy to rubbish these ideas (they are pretty subtle, after all), but if you look at Ralph Gibson's colour work, for example, you can see what he means - the fact that everything is in focus in the v/f of an r/f means he's made more aware of colour mass in the background which would be o.o.f. in an slr. Similarly, Salgado's more classically composed and structured images are more SLR like - they're slower, more thoughtful, more like old paintings. BTW, and FWIW, I'd be happy with either fellow's portfolio. What I mean I think is that a person needs to know what type of image they want to create before living their house, then choose equipment appropriately - for me the technology certainly steers me in one direction or the other - I'd be lying to say it makes no difference. (Could be I'm just weak willed)

-- steve (stephenjjones@btopenworld.com), January 25, 2002.

How about Bill Allard's take on it, from "William Albert Allard: The Photographic Essay", ISBN 0821217356, p.41:

"With an SLR, you're looking at your subject through the optic; you're literally seeing what the picture is going to look like. You have a device that will show you your depth of field, the area that will or will not be in critical focus. This is particularly true for me, because I'm often shooting at the maximum aperture of the lens, the aperture you actually view through. This helps you see how areas of color are affected. It can tell you if that blue has a hard edge, or if it's somewhat soft and blended into something else.

"When you're looking through a rangefinder, though, everything is sharp. The rangefinder window is by and large a focusing and framing device that lets you pick a part of the subject you want to be in critical focus. The only real way you can tell how the rest of the picture is going to look is by experience, or maybe a quick look at the depth-of-field scale on the lens itself. I think the rangefinder frees you up in a certain way. You're probably going to work a little looser in a structural sense, because everything is clean, clear, and sharp. When I look through an SLR, I think I'm a little bit more aware of compositional elements, of the structure of the image. With a rangefinder camera, I'm seeing certain spatial relationships."

-- Anon Terry (anonht@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002.

I happen to agree totally with what Gibson says. I do shoot differently when I use a rangefinder as opposed to an SLR, and the main difference I find is that with the rangefinder, exactly as he says, I tend to leave the camera at my eye and look around me through it and expose when I see what I want. With the SLR I watch, see something, bring the camera up to my face and freeze it with the camera. Does either make a better photo. I don't think so and I don't think that is what Gibson is saying. My take on what he has said is that for his personality the rangefinder way works better. Hate to say it, but with what - 15 or so major books behind him, countless gallery exhibitions, prints that most of us can't afford - I think he probably has the right to state his opinion.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002.

T add fuel to the debate, I notice differences in my photographs when I switch from my auto focus Nikon to my manual focus Nikon! Not better or worse, just different.

-- Sanford (sanford@usa.com), January 25, 2002.

Bob, as people we all have a right to state our opinions. I'm sure there's a difference for the individual snapper whether he prefers the one or the other, but I don't think it's something you can see in a picture. My personal style hasn't changed in any way due to the switch.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

Rob,

Why, in your estimation, are these two examples you've offered, excellant?

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), January 25, 2002.

I like them, but my reference was to the potential of two types of camera, not to my own pictures.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

Rob: I know we all have our own opinions. I was taking to task specifically Mathews statement "ralph gibson needs to learn how to look at a scene without the camera up at his face if he ever wants to use an SLR effectively." Looking at Gibsons success (if you read his article he has made his living for quite some time soley off of his fine-art photography, and a good living at that), I just think this is a somewhat inane statement. I'm sure Gibson can use an SLR just as effectively as any one of us.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002.

Fair enough. I always tend to react badly to appeals to authority, but I appreciate your point.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

Funnily enough, I think Gibson's work is almost antithetical to the typical use of a rangefinder: his pictures are so formal and precisely composed that I would have thought he would prefer an SLR, given the poor accuracy of the M viewfinder. Which just goes to show something, I suppose.

BTW, the first of my two snaps was SLR, the second M. Both 24 mm lenses.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 25, 2002.

Some other quotes that may apply:

Bill Pierce on reviewing the first Canon F1 (c. 1970): "Looking through an SLR viewfinder is like watching a slide show. The picture is the only thing you see, surrounded by quiet black space."

Friedlander or Winogrand (attributions vary, but both RF photographers): "I photograph things to see what they looked like photographed." (If he/they used SLRs, they'd already KNOW what something would "look like" photographed, on the focusing screen).

RE: Gibson, composition, SLRs and RFs. RG uses a 50 almost exclusively, which means he DOES see a lot outside the framelines - and in the Leica viewfinder the 50 is almost a telephoto with a smallish frame area relative to the eye's field of view, which makes it easier to do "SLR" type graphic framing than with almost any other focal length - the wides require peripheral vision or accessory finders and the real tele's frames get pretty tiny. That being said, I think his comments went a little over the top - I don't think Jay Maisel (e.g.) just "follows his reflex around the world...until it comes across a picture."

From a technical standpoint, the lens and film don't know what kind of camera they're mounted on - they just project and receive an image. The difference, if any, between RF and SLR, IS perceptual - how (if at all) they influence what/how we see.

I like Bill Allard's comparison - it's a fair stab at a very slippery psychological difference. For me the difference boils down to composition in space (SLR) vs. composition in time (RF).

Rob's 'quiz' - guessing, I'd say top-RF, bottom-SLR. But for my first 30 years in photography I shot SLRs and yet emulated/favored the work of RF photographers (Manos, Mark, Fusco, Freedman, early Gene Smith ). You can produce pictures in any style with any camera - some cameras just lend themselves to certain kinds of perception more readily than others.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), January 25, 2002.

I find rangefinders far easier to shoot with when not looking through the viewfinder.

Otherwise, I think, like Rob, it's personal preference, and the results are not indicative of the tool. I think experience teaches one to see the scene without looking through the viewfinder, even if composition is done through the viewfinder. In this case, it hardly matters, except for what is comfortable for someone to shoot.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), January 25, 2002.

Everyone seems to be reading into RG's quote what they want it to say, and not what he's actually saying. Personally, I only use an M6 and an Elmar-M, 50mm, f2.8. For me, this is the only combination that makes sense. The 50mm frameline is approximately half of the viewfinder area. I like being able to see twice the area that I'm photographing. Without moving the camera, I can easily see what's included and excluded, and reframe quickly. With an slr, this is not possible without moving the camera around, and then you don't remember anyway. The other thing is that there is no out of focus with the RF. This has its good points and bad points. With an slr, almost always, part of the viewfinder is out of focus, because, of course, the lens is set at its widest opening. Obviously, both types of cameras have taken classic shots that live a life of their own. As for guessing which type took which picture, how about this: I could care less. What does that have to do with my photography, my vision, or my quest? But I'll say this, if I see one more boring, (everybody and their relatives are doing it,) "the masses and cows are starving in India," photo, I'm going to puke.

-- Glenn Travis (leciaddict@hotmail.com), January 26, 2002.

Glenn, I agree with you 100%. Western (and even Indian) photographers tend to portray India as a vast refugee camp, which is a bit one- sided to say the least. Which is why I don't photograph people starving. I photograph them playing, working, doing all sorts of things. They are all pictures of people I would count as acquaintances and friends, and who enjoyed being photographed, often over a long period of time. If you find my pictures boring, that's my failure as a photographer, but if you see them as pictures of people starving, then I suggest you're bringing your own (Western, I should think) preconceptions to the slide show.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 26, 2002.

I agree entirely with RG, especially this comment: "With a rangefinder you see something, you make the exposure and you continue to look at what you’re seeing. The rangefinder is ideally matched to the perceptive act, the personal act of perception."

With a rangefinder camera, the photograph is already composed before you bring the camera to your eye. The only reason the camera comes to your eye, really, is to accomplish two things: 1) establish viewpoint; 2) to finalize image boundries with fast positioning of the framelines. Focus, exposure, and composition have already been taken care of. A long time ago. That is the way to use a Leica rangefinder. And that is why the RF is labeled with terms like spontaneous, intimate, unobtrusive, responsive, and, most importantly: unhesitating and absolutely compliant with your terms.

An SLR modifies your view of the subject by showing how the scene will look at a given f-stop, most of the time wide open with very little depth of field. It is necessary for the photographer to "get past this," and "fix the problem" of focus before a photograph can be taken. This is all during the time the photographer is looking into the viewfinder. With an RF, focus is immaterial - a totally nonexistent issue. The photographer already knows the f-stop and focus settings. The shot happens in a blink. Spontaneously, and without another thought.

Carl Weese said it best in his famous article: (paraphrase) "You look into an SLR; you look through a rangefinder.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), January 26, 2002.

Tony, I wish I had your skills! I'm afraid the camera spends a good deal of time up to my eye and I often walk around with it up there focusing and adjusting exposure until I see what I want to see.

But I like the idea that you look _through_ the rangefinder, that appeals to me.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), January 26, 2002.

Rob,

I may be an old softy, but this is a beautiful photograph (the happy child, the proud mother).

-- Glenn Travis (leciaddict@hotmail.com), January 26, 2002.