I just ran across the following, and need some background.

Leica motor for the M labelled "LEICA WINDER M4-2" - I saw the cat. no. but can't remember if it was 14214 or 14400.

The main deal with this motor is that it DOES NOT try to wind film until you let up on the shutter button.

The downside is no motorized sequences....

....but the upsides are that 1) it doesn't kick your finger off the shutter button and 2) it doesn't seem to have the potential for interfering with the shutter operation, since no winding tension is applied until you lift your finger. I was able to shoot 1 second exposures with no problem so long as I kept my finger down until the shutter closed.

It seems to me to be ideal for M work - I just would like something that allows me to keep the camera pointed at the subject (during portrait sessions, e.g.) without having to recompose after every wind. It has the tall, upright build, but actually I prefer that to the new 'gripped' motor - it's more ergonomic for MY hands. It has very little torque or noise - just a rubbery 'whirrr'. I didn't try manual winding with the motor turned off, so would be interested in knowing how that's supposed to feel with this winder compared with others.

This version worked fine as described with my M4-P - I'm going back tomorrow to try the M4-2 body.

I mostly want to know - is this standard operation for the 14214/14400? (I've just never run across any M motor that didn't kick the shutter button). And are there any horror stories to be aware of? And is $195 a good price? And is it supposed to work with both the -P and the -2 bodies. (This one DID work with the later body, but maybe it's been modified somehow.)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), January 25, 2002

Answers

There are two different designs of the Winder-M and two different styles of the later design.

The first Winder M4-2 up to serial number 10349 is a single shot device. It uses a protruding pin shaft to switch on the winder cycle. The M4-2 and M4-P (except for serial numbers 1552500-1552884 and 1563000-1588536 which can be adapted) cameras have a corresponding shaft attached to the shutter release which triggers the winder. The camera needs to be adjusted so that the winder is only triggered after the shutter has been released. They had a great deal of trouble with getting this synchronisation right and horrified testers said: "Great camera, do not get the winder!" I would be leary about using this winder on multiple cameras. The winder body has a removable battery pack which can be hooked up remotely with the appropriate cord. This winder will not work on a M6.

Winder M4-2 with serial numbers of 10350 and up are functionally identical to the Winder M4-P and Winder-M. It, however, still has the same removable battery back which the later winders dropped. These winders can function continuously but, regardless of what Leica says, I would only use continuous with speeds of 1/50 and faster.

I know of several Winder M4-2 continuous selling for around $125US. The early Winder M4-2 can sometimes be found for much less!

My advice would be to buy a RapidWinder. It works on all the M4-2 and up cameras with no troubles.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 25, 2002.

Yo, John. Thanks for the info.

My M4-P is early enuff to dodge the "non-working" serial number ranges (and it obviously worked!) I guess I'll just have to try the M4-2 (whcih is also extremely early and has the little copper rim around the wind-dog), but this particular winder seems to be free of the obvious jerks and grinds and other problems - either little used/abused or well-serviced. Between that and the fact my -P is of the right vintage, I guess I'm just lucky.

The only reason I don't consider Tom A.'s excellent piece of engineering is - if I'm pushing the shutter button with my right hand, and winding the trigger with my left, where does the third hand come from for focusing?

Then again, I guess I can't hold the M4-2 winder in my teeth while changing film. 8^(

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), January 25, 2002.

I handled a RapidWinder and had the same question--with lenses that don't have focus tabs you do need 3 hands or the winder is frivolous. Actually I found I can wind with the thumb lever just as fast as the RapidWinder. The far-left placement of the M viewfinder means I don't need to pull my head back to stroke the lever. Also I had serious trepidations about stabbing or scratching myself, someone else, or furniture or car finish with the RapidWinder trigger which hangs dagger-like from the bottom. Like the soft release I know they have their loyal following but it really beats me why.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), January 26, 2002.

With the RW, you can wind on with one finger if need be and have fingers free to turn a focusing ring without tab. I was just doing that today with my 90/2AA.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), January 26, 2002.

Andy I would suggest to develop a film that you have advanced with the motor winder you're looking at. I bought a similar winder and the transport worked, but the spacing of the negs was totally off, irregular. With manual transport lever, same M4-2, no problem. It was easily corrected by Gerry Smith, but I had no camera for a few weeks.

-- Hans Berkhout (berkhout@cadvision.com), January 26, 2002.

We're back to winders. To repeat: I would leave the old Leica winders alone. (They are the only pieces of Leica equipment that I am happy to see in glass cases.) The Rapidwinder is an excellent alternative is you are a Rapidwinder sort of person. This is not a joke. Some people take to it, some don't. It so happens that I do. I do find it faster than using my thumb, especially if I a view finder in the hotshoe. If I am doing stealth candid photography I find that the Rapidwinder calls less attention to me. I too have misgiving about the "dagger-like" level. It is styled after the original Leicavit and is quite functional. You do get used to the idea of not stabbing yourself or the furniture. I've never done it and I've never heard of anyone who has. Still, I'd like to see it redesigned. The lever of the Canon VT is a good model, I think. It is flat on the bottom. The Bessa T's Triggerwinder's level folds in when you push back on it. But this is annoying at times.

Also, with a focusing tab on the lens you don't need a "third hand." As I've said in another thread, you can even comfortably use the Rapidwinder with lens without focusing tabs once you get your fingers adjusted. Not for everyone, perhaps, but kind of fun for me.

To say it again: One major virtue of Rapidwinders is their ready adaptability to various M Leicas in various states of shutter impercations from M4-2 to M6 TTL. Leica motor winders tend to be touchy. I have the latest motor on the latest M6TTL. So far so good, I love the combo, but have a ready extra Rapidwinder handy.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), January 26, 2002.

Just to wrap this thread up - I tried the M4-2 on the M4-2 winder. it seemed to work so I bought the motor.

Within two hours the motor was jamming the shutters on both cameras! (Not damaging them, just locking up and requiring manual advance to get unlocked.)

The motor went back Monday morning.

The phrase "Leica electronics" falls into the same category as "Nuggets basketball" - fellow Front-Rangers will know what I mean. Makes me wonder about the M(7) =:^o

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), January 29, 2002.