I set up a test.My Nikon F5 next to my M6 ttl.Same film(sensia 100),same lens type(35mm f2),same exposure details(125/f5.6),taken at exactly the same time,using a sekonic 508 ambient reading.I also took a few frames using the built in meters.

So why then has the F5 produced perfectly exposed slides and the M6 slides are all over the place?

I also tried the same test with SB28 nikon & SF20 Leica flash.I set both cameras to 30th/5.6.Nikon was perfect,Leica was overexposed in the flash and underexposed in the ambient.

why,why,WHYYYYYYYY???????

I am greatful for any help.

-- Jacob Shimmen (jacobsladder34@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002

Answers

Was EVERYTHING on the cameras and lenses set to manual?

-- Virgil (leicavirgin@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002.

Yes Virgil,I everything.I even made a double mount for the cameras to sit next to each other on the tripod and taped the cable-releases together so they would trip the shutters at the same time.

-- Jacob (jacobsladder34@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002.

"So why then has the F5 produced perfectly exposed slides and the M6 slides are all over the place?"

I'm a fan of the M6 meter myself, but I would never claim that it is anywhere near as clever as the F5 or F100.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), February 07, 2002.

I don't know in that case Jacob?

This is a job for the more technically minded members of the forum......

-- Virgil (leicavirgin@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002.

But Rob,everything was set to manual,so the results from both cameras should be consistant?

-- Virgil (leicavirgin@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002.

i assume that the SB-28 and SF-20 are also set to manual (i.e., not TTL)...if not then that's the cause of the difference in exposure...

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002.

Sounds like your not questioning the exposure as much as shutter speed? Do you think your M's shutter may be off. That would account for the "M6 slides are all over the place" 125/f5.6 should be the same on both cameras in terms of exposure in your test.

-- Bob Haight (rhaigh5748@aol.com), February 07, 2002.

I agree with Bob above. If your exposures were all over the place, and you used 1/125th @ f5.6 for everything, then clearly your shutter is not behaving as it should. You can get errors of +/- 1/3 stop or so at the higher speeds of 1/500th and 1/1000th, but it should be very consistent at 1/125th. I regularly shoot transparency film in my M6's and have NO problems -- they turn out as good as my F5 (that is, as long as I do my job properly!)

:-),

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), February 07, 2002.

Agreed. At 1/125 the M shutter is at least consistent if not accurate. At most your shots should have been over- or under-exposed with the Leica but not "all over the place". Time for a shutter check.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), February 07, 2002.

Jacob:

There is a unique set of exposure parameters for each different camera, lens, film development and even light source combo. To be rigorous, one needs to do tests on each one separately do determine these. Even 2 lenses from the same manufacrurer with consequtive serial Nos can be different, same as 2 amplifiers, cars etc. All Big Macs taste the same, but Steak Diane in 2 different French restaurants tastes different. All E&J G**** wine tastes the same but a Margaux is differnet from a Pomerol.

Even tho' current mass production techniques are very good, Leicas are not really MassProd machines. It take some time to learn the machine, as it can not really be taken out of the box and used straightaway as a Nikon or Toyota can.

The metering system on the Nikon is a complex matrix that integrates readings from many sections of the visual field of view, then the computer calculates an exposure based on algorithms set up by a committee of engineers at Nikon. It can even tell what where the sky is compared to trees when the camera is held horizontally, and can compensate for that.

The Leica reads what falls on one grey spot on the shutter curtain and tells you that it meets the 18% grey criterion; you must interpret that, even with the TTL. You (we) are expected to do the same as the Nikon algorithm does, based on tens of thousands of images and the committee, all in about the same time in your head without being conscious of it, sort of the way a hawk sees a rat and knows just precisely how fast to fly and in what direction to grab it on the run, without algorithims and committess of guys in white coats.

Ask Micheal Schumacher how long it takes to learn how to drive an F1 Ferrarri after learning on a Fiat. As long as I am still waxing philosophic, why does every Stradivarious violin sound different?

Cheers

-- RICHARD ILOMAKI (richard.ilomaki@hotmail.com), February 07, 2002.

I've also not seen what the subject was - -background, etc. -- better for matrix metering?, forgreound/background distance changes, metering area versus main exposure area (the Lecia will meter the central are...

I've manually metered Leica for some time, and per cent "bad" epxosures are very low.

-- Lacey Smith (lacsmith@bellsouth.net), February 07, 2002.

Hello Jacob. In relation to your flash overexposure problem with the M6 ttl and SF20 flash you are not alone. Fast forward to Jack Flesher's newer thread "Vivid Light online magizine M6 article" thread. In the article the author experiences similar problems and comments on adjustments required. Perhaps Lutz's SF20 Leica flash diffuser, a new accesory for this flash, will address your problem. I'm not sure how to contact the designer of this accessory. Other Leica users will be able to help here. Regards.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

many of you answerers didn't read the thread properly. there was no matrix metering involved. i guess the problem lies in the difference between electronic and mechanic shutters. i would try to shoot a whole film with the m6, keeping the aperture the same and changing through many speeds. every fifth exposure should be at the metered value. then shoot another film with increasing speeds and decreasing aperture, keeping the ev-value level. this should tell you a lot about the accuracy of your shutter. get it repaired or learn to live with it.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), February 08, 2002.

Meters are not all calibrated the same. Further, metering technique is very important, even (especialy?) with in-camera meters. If, in your tests, you just set the cameras on manual, and adjusted the apertures and shutter speed dials until the cameras indicated proper exposure, you will certainly get different results. Check the aperture settings and shutter speed indicators and compare them, and you will see the difference.

As has been pointed out, the Nikons have complex metering systems, and the Leica has a simple "selective"meter. The Nikon evaluates the scene and calculates exposure, the Leica's in-camera meter just tells you what settings will make the central 23% or so reproduce at roughly middle grey, or mid tone.

You may be seeing the Leica's shutter which is known to be less accurate than the Nikon's. You may be seeing meters calibrated slightly differently. You may be seeing the result of poor metering technique. Or, much less likely, you may be seeing a mechnical problem in one of your cameras. I seriously doubt this, and would take a long look at your metering technique, even if think you are just going by what the in-camera meters say. Where are you pointing the lens? As you have no doubt noted, this makes a big difference with the Leica, and with the Nikon, depending upon which metering mode you have set.

Hope this helps. I teach this stuff to highschool and college kids, so feel free to flame me or e-mail with more questions as you like.

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

Jacob: What drew said. Also, do you have a problem with the M6 when used on its own? Or was the problem only apparent within the context of your test? If so, it may have been an artifact of your testing method. I get an occasional bum exposure with the M6, but it's always my fault for ignoring what I know about the effect of the subject luminence deviating from 18% reflectance.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), February 08, 2002.

Dear Jacob, When I test and compare meters in my various cameras and hand held meter I use a hand painted slate "grey card" about 2x3feet in size. I set the lens on infinity to take the readings and fill the frame with the "grey card" The variance between My M6, Nikon F3, Fe2, and Pentax digital spotmeter have always been within 1/3 of a stop. So, I would check your meter readings using this type of test. Then do a Zone 5 exposure with all cameras at several different shutter speed and apeture combinations to cross check for shutter speed accuracy. Develop the film together in the same tank. The only variance that has suprised me is the slightly different readings I get from different M lens,especially the 90 tele-elmarit which passes more light to the film plane, about 1/2 stop.

-- John Elder (celder2162@aol.com), February 09, 2002.

Hi Jacob, hmmm.... the F5 does have a color meter, and the SB-28 and F5 talk to each other - even in manual mode. The Nikon will also take into account the exact distance (if using a D-lens), I'm wondering if the Nikon pair can make small 1/10-2/10th-3/10th adjustments in metering even in full manual. Your flash is working with the F5 in TTL, powerful combo. The Nikon's computer (along with color metering) has a better balanced fill-flash program. Also, have you calibrated your M6 against your sekonic?

-- brooke anderson (dbanders@videotron.ca), February 09, 2002.

YOU

DIDN'T

READ

THE

THREAD

RETARDS

Everything was in MANUAL

-- Harry (harryblat@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002.

No, You are the "retard".

1)Did you use a grey card? your post doesn't specify. Even if you did, you would have to make sure that you always measure and shoot from the same angle relative to the grey card. Make sure that's all the meter sees is grey.

2)Diaphragm inaccuracy, shutter variance, yes, play a role and the above won't matter if these come into play.

3)Photography is not an exact science. (Absolutely perfect focus either never happens or is impossible to achieve- thank circles of confusion for that) If you want exact, you'll have to shoot digitally using lenses that don't involve a physical medium such as glass and operates in a vacuum. Good luck trying to focus, however.

-- Mike DeVoue (karma77@att.net), February 13, 2002.