how there can be a wrong kind of Christian. A Christian is a person that believes in Jesus(of the Bible) repents and accepts Him as his/her Savior. You can live by Christian principals-do unto others..., feed the hungry, take care of sick etc. but that doesn't make you a Christian anymore than sleeping in a doghouse would make you a dog. And neither does going to church or joining a church make you a Christian. It's right there in the Bible for all to see in black white and sometimes red. It's like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002

Answers

what if your not "cristian",, are you "wrong"?

-- Stan (sopal@net-port.com), February 12, 2002.

Cindy, have you ever read any history??? Have you ever been to a Baptist Church?? When I used the term "wrong kind of Christian" that was what I was speaking of. There are those Christians, even as we speak, who thing their denomination is the only one's going to heaven.

We have two men in our Mennonite Church who were the wrong kind of Christian during WWII. Maybe Rags can tell you about the prisons they were in down in Alabama. They didn't refuse to serve, just refused to carry a gun, and were imprisoned, tortured and starved. Now wasn't that just a wonderful thing for a "Christian" nation to do. It was suggested that I read some magazine..........I don't need to. I just read the face of Brother Aaron as he struggles to stand up after kneeling in church. Go figure.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 12, 2002.

You know what the problem seems to be??? Flesh. There isn't one of us who will ever be perfect while we are in it. And I don't mean being a "carnal" Christian, I mean simply having to continue to do the things necessary to still keep this ole body going....in this world. Flesh in itself seems to be a deception. This is just my musing- not something I am ready to back up scripturally.

Then there are wolves in sheeps clothing and there is the fact that Satan is running rampant and he will do whatever he can to cause strife, indifference and hatred to reign. All the denominational wrangling is just another thing that tears people up. I see nowhere in the Bible any basis for denominations. And the thing about thinking only this denomination is going to heaven is just an absolutely unscriptural lie. Yet people being greedy and self righteous, unfounded in the scriptures, not studying, will believe it. Of course there are different ministries and dispensations to members of the Body, but there is no "right" way to sever it by saying "the hand is better than the eye"---what good is the hand if it can't see what it is doing? You are to rightly divide the word of God by knowing His Word. If a person proves themselves to be a Christian (I don't care to argue this point with non Christians) and there is some point they disagree on each should take a step back and study what the problem is. See if there is a chance that the Spirit is working differently in the other person before blasting them.

Satan is having a party and we are all on the menu. Let's try to make sure that we stay off the plate. And you are right Cindy, either you are or you aren't. There really isn't an inbetween.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), February 12, 2002.

Cindy, Christians are still people. And being people, we, they, you and me will still do a multitude of dumb things on a regular basis. I can hold myself up (like I need to) as an example for that one. The root of Christian is CHRIST! Lucky for us, He's bigger and better than anything we can be.

Your analogy of the doghouse is perfect. Many people claim him and seem to know the truth, talk the talk, etc. Not all of them are telling the truth tho. So we probably can't know who is or what is a "wrong" one.

I really don't know if there is a real good answer to your question. But I'm sure you'll get all the answers, commentary and then some you can ever hope for if this thread follows the recent trends.

-- John in S. IN (jdoofus@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002.

Christians can be wrong, but maybe some of these people aren't really Christians at all. There're a lot of pretenders, I speak from experience. I walked the walk and talked the talk but I wasn't saved/a real Christian. Not til years later.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002.

I think Jesus himself set the example. He spent a great deal of time mocking the Scribes and Pharisees(wrong kind of God fearing people) with parables. Than there was that ultimate climactal moment with the bullwhip when he showed the money changers the door ! The church today is full of pharisees, fashion fluanters, the amen choirs( oh watch me pray) and money grubbing adminstrators of their own needs. But do not let this blind you to what vitue there is. Stan, my only job is to witness that I believe, not in any way make you believe, which would be impossible anyway. I can only beg forgivness for the lost that infect the church. They are a sad fact of the reality of greed and ego's. It is my personal belief that the number found in heaven will be much less than anyone ever expected. Even I do not believe that I will ever see the gates but that does not stop me from trying to follow; for it is a better way. Even the atheist or agnostic knows deep in his heart and soul that God exists !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), February 12, 2002.

Humans was not made to serve religiions. Religions were made to serve humans. Ment for the purpose to try to civilize humans and keep them civilized. A kind of law book with morals claimed to be from the devine, design to keep stabilization and order in society. Every book of religious content wether Buddist , Hindu ,Muslim, Hebrew, Christian is writen by men who claim the words were Gods words.The messages are simular and universal in each religion,being a lustful, , hateful ,jealous,greedy,revengeful,self serving and violent savage is destuctive to yourself, your family and others around you and will eventually break down society , order and destoy the civilization or and best currupt it.In the Christian religion, Jesus cleans the feet of his deciples, a task that was done by slaves or servants of the time.Symbolizing he was here not to be nor asking to be worshipped, he was giving his life to serve others,the highest action a being can accomplih on the material plane.

-- SM Steve (notrealmail@msn.com), February 12, 2002.

I was reading my bible yesterday and sure wish I could quickly recall exactly what book it was which addressed this issue (I had read several different ones). It strikes me that it may have been in James. Anyway, I read the verses addressing the fact that although men may worship in public and appear to be holy, when they do not speak or act in a manner which exemplifies Christ, they have no true faith. Many,many people who declare themselves to be of a Christian church are not Christians at all, according to the bible because they do not speak or behave as Christians. I used to be one. In years past, I attended church because it was the "thing" to do. I even enjoyed the sermons and felt somewhat righteous. If someone had accused me of not being a Christian, I would have been grossly insulted. It was more a fixture of my superficial lifestyle than of my heart in those days. In my private life, I was the disseminator of filthy jokes which I thought were a riot to share; I happily went about ignoring every single commandment without a care in the world, but by George, on Sundays I could be found in church with my head bowed. Bowed not in awe of the Creator, not in penitence for my many sins, but bowed because all the other folks in church bowed their heads when the pastor said to. Sometimes, I would be planning a party in my head while the prayers were going on. My new son-in-law was a fundamentalist Christian. I watched him always take his bible to work with him and rolled my eyes, saying how foolish he looked, and what on earth was my daughter thinking to marry such a fanatic Jesus freak weirdo. My eyes were opened several years later to the truth of really BEING a Christian. I have found that it is very difficult for those fortunate folks who turned to Christ in childhood to understand folks such as I used to be who SAY they are Christians but do not behave as one. They have no frame of reference for being "unbelieving believers". I have also found that there is a place for heated rhetoric defending Christ and there are more places for gentle witness. I truly believe that the folks who follow Christ in ALL His teachings are fewer in number than we can imagine. There is a passage in the bible that scares me to death..it says that many on the judgement day will call Lord, Lord, and not comprehend when God looks them in the eye and says, "Go away from me..I do not know you". But for the miraculous grace of the Almighty in my life, I was surely destined to be one of those people. That is why it is so important to NOT spend time castigating folks who do not speak and act like Christians yet claim to be one..it is more Christlike to love them so much that your heart bleeds for them to see the truth. I cannot imagine anyone being persuaded to come to Christ in reality by intimidation or harsh human judgement.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 12, 2002.

Diane, what does your reference to asking Cindy if she had ever been to a Baptist church mean? I am Baptist and I can tell you the Baptist church is probably one of the most open as far as excepting other religions than any other denominaton. However, Jesus doesn't really care what denomination we are just as long as we believe and follow him. We are all sinners regardless of what denomination we belong to. There are saved sinners and lost sinners. Saved sinners have excepted Jesus Christ as their savior. There will be Methodist, Mennonites, Church of Christ, Baptist and all different denominations in heaven. I do agree with Joel however that there will be fewer there than we expect. "Narrow is the path". Joel, you can know for certain you will be going to heaven if you have excepted Him.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), February 12, 2002.

Barb,

There are different kinds of Baptists, and there are some wide cultural differences between them, and indeed, between individual churches among them. You are right, most Baptists are wonderful people. (I am one, and my father and grandfather are both Southern Baptist Ministers). However, there are some Baptists who sort of believe that God is a Baptist, and that only baptists will go to heaven. We don't have that market cornered, though, there are people from nearly every Christian denomination who belive thus. That doesn't make them right.

God refuses to be put in a box. He won't be labeled and He can't be owned. He did set forth one very clear way to Him, that is through his Son Jesus Christ. Christ claimed to BE God. ("I and the Father are one.")

To say that Jesus was a "great teacher" or just a very good man is intellectually dishonest. Christ claimed to be God incarnate. Either he is or He isn't. Lord, Liar or Lunatic, those are your only choices.

I'm not so sure of your choice of words, Cindy, can there be a "wrong KIND of christian? There are those who say they are and aren't, there are those who are and don't act like it, and there are those who are and act like it. Being a Christian, though, isn't about how you act, it's about what you believe. True belief leads to action, however. Many people seem to put the cart before the horse.

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), February 12, 2002.

Christian is a word , words are part of language,language is a tool used to express thought in a detailed descriptive manner.Words are what lead to arguments , arguments are what lead to wars, wars are what leads to death of the body or soul by violence.The word Christian ,as other words, have too many different meanings to, too many different people, who use the tool of language too many different ways, for me to be comfortabe using this word to describe my beliefs or my relation with God. Christian is a word derived from the latin language , pertaining to light.

-- SM Steve (notrealmail@msn.com), February 12, 2002.

Barb, sorry.......I kind of blew it there. Nothing new to me I can assure you :>( I was doing exactly what irkes me about denominations, lumping all in one lump. My grandmother was a Baptist, absolutely wonderful woman that I never heard say a mean thing about anyone. So was my grandfather, who would not speak to my mother for 12 years because she married a Catholic.

I have only attended services in three Baptist Churches. Each of them preached from the pulpit against all who were not like them, all other believers were in error.

I am in total agreement with what has been said here. Many will say Lord, Lord and will not be recognized. I truly am the worst of sinners and could never, ever claim to be anything else. I love Paul, because he speaks so to my heart when he talks of doing that which he most does not want to do. Offending brothers and sisters in Christ is never something I want to do, but so frequently do. We all see through the glass darkly.

I often wonder what our Lord is thinking as He watches us. I try to go to the scripture and see what HE did in situations. Can you imagine it?? When the mob came to get Him in the garden, who did he rebuke?? His own follower who drew out the sword. Who did he heal?? The man who came along to kill Him. As He was there on the cross, who did He pardon? That worthless sinner who probably didn't do an honest thing in his life except acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, an innocent man. When I compare myself to that, I am as worthless as a grain of sand in the desert of the universe, yet He died even for me. May God get all the glory..........amen.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 12, 2002.

We all crucified Jesus on the cross. Each and everyone of us. He died for us all whether Baptist, Mennonite or whatever. I don't agree with doctrines of all the other Christian churches but I do love my christian brothers and sisters in other denominations. I have been a Baptist for almost 1/2 a century. No, I don't think they are a perfect denomination but they most closely match my beliefs. Yes, I know there are different kinds of Baptists. I have never heard one say they were the only way to heaven but perhaps many years ago there were some who thought that. There are a lot of denominations today who think that. Diane, while I don't agree with all the doctrines of the Mennonites, I do admire them greatly. My favorite store is a bulk food store run by Mennonites. I love those people! I have read a lot of their literature. Baptist and Mennonites do have one thing in common - we are both anabaptist - that is we don't believe in infant baptism.

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), February 12, 2002.

I believe that there are Christians in every Christian faith. I also believe there are lost people in every Christian faith. I am a card carrying Baptist. I cannot decide for someone else whether they are a Christian. I can however tell everyone what the Bible says. People have complained because I whip out the Bible at every opportunity. I base my whole life on God's Word. It applies to every situation.

2 Timothy 3 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Cindy, you are right there is NO right kind of Christian. There is however a choice for each Christian to take God's Word and hold it up to man's tradition and compare.

Titus 1

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Even in Paul's day there were those in the Church that were teaching bad doctrine. Paul teaches that we are to remain true to our calling and shun evil.

In Matthew, Christ tells us that we will "know them by their fruits".

In Ephesisians five Paul says this:

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Biblical Christianity is about holding every doctrine, every philosophy up to the perfect light of the Bible. If the doctrine or the philosophy fails the test of God's Word, then not only should it be shunned, but also the faith that is teaching that doctrine. This does not mean however that every one attending the church that is teaching falsehood is headed for hell however. It does mean that it is the duty of every Christian to follow the path of Christ faithfully, and when a group of people step out of the path we ought not to follow them.

Joel, we can KNOW that we are going to heaven. These are for you.

1 Corithians 2:12

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2 Corinthians 5 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens

Colossians 3

23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

1 John 5

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 12, 2002.

ok,, ALL CHristians are W R O N G ! ! ! ! ! ,,(there,,someone had to say it)

-- Stan (sopal@net-port.com), February 12, 2002.

Joel said, "Even the atheist or agnostic knows deep in his heart and soul that God exists !

How presumptuous. A very egotistical statement. And wrong. I have proof.

-- joj (jump@off.c), February 12, 2002.

Psalm 14 1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 12, 2002.

Little Bit, I agree with you. Our religion should be based on the Bible. Unfortunately, the problem arises when different religions interpret the Bible differently. We will only know the truth when we get to heaven and I'm sure we'll all be wrong about some things and right about some things. All we can do now is ask for guidance and read and study the Bible. God bless you all.

-- Barb in ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), February 12, 2002.

If each one of us would ask the Holy Spirit to show us what to believe instead of interpreting for ourselve, and wait for an answer, we wouldn't have these denominational problems. He'll lead us where He wants us.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002.

Cindy, in my never so humble opinion, the "wrong" kind of christians are the ones who follow another christ, not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Our biggest problem as the Body of Christ is putting our faith in denominational doctrines before putting our faith and study in the Word of God as He gave it to us in His Holy Bible.

I agree if we were all sensitive to the teaching of the Holy Spirit we would be oh so much farther ahead, but not everybody is that spiritually mature and many may never be that mature. There are many nice Christian folks who do not want to be that intimate with the Spirit of God. It is a fearful thing to be in the hands of the Living God!

We each need to read our Bible and study with other Christians. With both intellecual and spiritual growth, new meanings and interpretations are grasped. A passage I studied 10 years ago takes on a whole new deeper meaning today. Were we wrong 10 years ago? No, I don't believe so but I could not have grasped the concepts that I can now.

God tells us we are not to judge the world, that is His job, but we are to judge one another. If we see sin in a brother or sister, we am commanded to address this. We are to pursuade and encourage one another toward growth and we are not to stagnate in our own growth.

We can never hope to be perfect in this life. Even Martin Luther, as he railed against the Catholic Church for being the anti-christ, held an ani-baptist in his dungeon for being a heretic.

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002.

Christos means messiah. I believe its Jesus THE Christ.

I know I'm gonna get blasted for this but there is only ONE messiah and it is LOVE. Where there is LOVE, you find Christ. Its that simple, completely non-denominational and not even specifically "Christian" tho many "Christians" like to believe they have a corner on truth. If you have love, you have truth.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 13, 2002.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6) Jesus the living breathing man said that, not Jesus your Gnostic/New Age abstraction, John.

-- Rags (RaggedReb@aol.com), February 13, 2002.

Elsewhere in the bible it sez God is love. If Jesus and God were/are one and the same then its not new age/gnostic. Its simple reasoning.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 13, 2002.

There are several kinds of greek words for love used in the Bible, John. Some are based upon the word "phileo". Which means, as love toward man. The ones in the verse,

1 John 4 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

are based on the word "agape". Which means, love of God. There are more kinds of Love than one. The verse literally means,

He that loveth not as God would love, knoweth not God; for God is Agape.

1 John goes on to say,

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

and...

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

and...

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Only when God is the source of love is it the kind of love that is meant in 1 John. A person can be loving and even do good works, but only a person who knows Christ can love with agape love, love which has it's source in Christ himself. So in a since you are absolutely right, but the evidence of God is not just doing good works. The evidence of God is a change in heart and life and love through Christ Jesus.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 13, 2002.

You missed the point Little Bit. The word Christos means messiah, not love. But the messiah IS love, not by definition but by spirit, if you get the distinction. If God is love, as it sez in the bible, and Jesus is God, wouldn't He also be love? And wouldn't it then also imply the Christos is Love?

Now here's a news flash, I agree with alot of what you said Doreen. But there's a catch ---but maybe not for the same reasons.

You say "You know what the problem seems to be??? Flesh. There isn't one of us who will ever be perfect while we are in it. And I don't mean being a "carnal" Christian, I mean simply having to continue to do the things necessary to still keep this ole body going....in this world. Flesh in itself seems to be a deception. This is just my musing- not something I am ready to back up scripturally."

I generally agree with the basic contention in that paragraph. The "deciever" operates by creating division among people, by spreading fear rather than love and unity. But the "flesh" and our physical senses make it obvious that physically we are seperate entities. However if we focus more on spirit and consciousness, Christ consciousness, that pulls down the artificial boundries between "us and them".

You go on to say "Then there are wolves in sheeps clothing and there is the fact that Satan is running rampant and he will do whatever he can to cause strife, indifference and hatred to reign. All the denominational wrangling is just another thing that tears people up. I see nowhere in the Bible any basis for denominations. And the thing about thinking only this denomination is going to heaven is just an absolutely unscriptural lie. Yet people being greedy and self righteous, unfounded in the scriptures, not studying, will believe it. Of course there are different ministries and dispensations to members of the Body, but there is no "right" way to sever it by saying "the hand is better than the eye"---what good is the hand if it can't see what it is doing? You are to rightly divide the word of God by knowing His Word. If a person proves themselves to be a Christian (I don't care to argue this point with non Christians) and there is some point they disagree on each should take a step back and study what the problem is. See if there is a chance that the Spirit is working differently in the other person before blasting them."

Denominations: You are absolutely right in what you say about denominations but it causes me to return to an old CS discussion. Denominations have their roots in different interpretations of the same source---the Bible, the Koran, the Gita, Vedas, Torah etc., and a collective adoption of the same interpretation. The interpretation we relate to in turn is very dependent on our own psychological predelictions and perspective IMO. Its virtually unavoidable that we will have different approaches to life and different "takes" on identical stimuli. Even if the bible said "There will be ONLY ONE denomination." it wouldn't be long before someone said this denomination and the interpretation it represents is mistaken and the creation of another denomination would be in the making and they would call it the TRUE denomination, just not the original one.

Even the idea of proving oneself to be a Christian is a denominational issue IMO. I don't know if you consider me to be a Christian or not. According to your definition, probably not. In which case you will not likely discuss this with me. But then, what is your defintion based on??---your own understanding of scripture which is nothing more than another interpretation.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 13, 2002.

Just goes to show you. People see what they want to see. Imho Einstein said it best. "reality is an illusion....albeit a very persistent one." quite obvious I think.

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), February 25, 2002.