The practice of having a clergyman called 'the evangelist' serving in the traditional pastoral role in some RM churches seems strange to me. In evangelical churches, evangelists are usually travelling ministers. I kind of think it's strange that a lot of 'evangelists' in evangelical churches spend their time itinerating between churches rather than actually _evangelizing_ the lost as well.

I think we need to look at the scriptures again and rethink what an evangelist is. The verb for 'preach,' which is related to our word for 'evangelist' shows up many times in the NT. It is used many times in situations where Paul and others proclaim the Gospel to unbelievers. But I only know of three verses which mention 'evangelist' or 'evangelists.'

In the book of Acts, we read about Phillip. Phillip was one of seven men chosen to handle feeding of widows in Jerusalem in order to relieve the apostles of this burden so that they might give themselves to the ministry of the word and prayer. (Since one of these apostles was named Phillip, it stands to reason that this other Phillip was not one of the Twelve apostles.) The apostles laid hands on these Seven men. Traditionally, these men are identified with the deacon ministry.

The saints were scatterred from Jerusalem due to persecution. Phillip went down to Samaria and preached Christ. Many people there believed and were baptized. Phillip didn't stick around long enough to appoint elders. He apparently turned this work over to the apostles. The apostles came and laid hands on the people, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost. Later, Phillip was going along a desert road and saw an Ethiopian eunuch in a chariot. He was led to walk alongside the chariot. He started talking to the eunuch who was having difficulty understanding a passage about Christ in Isaiah 53. He explained the passage, and shared the Gospel with the eunuch. The eunuch saw water and asked to be baptized. Philip baptized him and then disappeared and reappeared in another place where the Lord wanted him.

Later, Acts tells us that Paul stayed with 'Phillip the evangelist' one of the Seven, and that he had four daughters that prophesied.

Let us consider if Phillip were 'ordained.' What I mean by 'ordained' here is more in the traditional sense than in the scriptural use of the word. I'm thinking of a ceremony in which hands are laid on the candidate for ministry.

In the Bible, the apostles laid hands on people for healing, for them to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and to set people apart for ministry.

Phillip did have hands laid on him, but for his service of taking care of widows. There is no mention of him being 'ordained' as an evangelist in that passage.

Now let's look at another reference to 'evangelist' in the NT. Paul told Timothy to 'do the work of an evangelist.'

Some in the RM movement see Timothy as a model of what an evangelist was. The elders laid hands on Timothy, probably before he was sent out to minister. Timothy appointed elders and taught the word.

But is Timothy the 'Biblical prototype' of evangelist? What if one were to argue that taking the responsibility of administrating feeding widows in order to alleviate the burden of other church leaders was the responsibility of evangelists. After all, Philip the evangelist did this type of work, and he was an evangelist.

The problem with this argument is that Phillip's work of feeding widows was related to _another ministry_ that he was entrusted with besides being an evangelist. Phillip was an evangelist and (probably) a deacon as well.

Let's look at another example. Dr. Joe Schmoe is a Medical Doctor and a surgeon. He does heart surgery. Would it be logical for me to conclude that every medical doctor does heart surgery? After all, Joe Schmoe is an MD, and he does surgery. The problem with this way of thinking is that Joe Schmoe can do surgery, not just because he is a doctor, but because he is also a surgeon. Surgeon's can do certain medical procedures that regular doctors are not supposed to do.

Now let's keep this in mind when we think about Timothy. Was Timothy involved in another ministry besides that of 'evangelist?' I Thesalonians 1:1 and 2:6-7 indicate that Paul, Timothy, and Silas were 'apostles of Christ.'

If Timothy were an apostle and an evangelist (or called to do _the work of_ an evangelist) then which of his responsibilities were related to being an apostle, and which were related to being an evangelist?

* Proclaiming the Gospel to unbelievers-- If the meaning of 'evangelist' is something like 'one who proclaims the Gospel' then this would have been a responsibility of Timothy as an evangelist, just based on the meaning of the word, 'evangelist.' Apostles also 'evangelized' (preached/proclaimed the Gospel.)

*Appointing elders- Was this a part of Timothy's work as apostle or evangelist? Paul and Barnabas are called 'apostles' in scripture, and they appointed elders. So there is a pattern for _apostles_ appointing elders.

*Being ordained. Timothy's experience of hands being laid on him is similar to the experience of Paul and Barnabas--both _apostles_. Timothy had a gift that was in him which he received by prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. Let's compare this to Paul and Barnabas' experience. In Acts 13, the Spirit spoke (compare: Timothy received a gift by prophecy.) and the prophets and teachers laid hands on them (compare: Timothy received his gift with the laying on of hands of the elders.)

Phillip had hands laid on him in connection with feeding widows, but there is no evidence that he apostles laid hands on him to be an evangelist.

*Judging elders in 'church court.' Paul told Timothy not to receive a charge against the elders except it was brought by two or three witnesses. Is judging in such cases the work of an apostle, or an evangelist? Perhaps Timothy was acting as a sort of judge. In I Corinthians 5, we see Paul made a judgement concerning a man in sin. Paul was an apostle. Timothy was an apostle. They both seemed to have had the responsibility of judge, or perhaps receiver of charges against someone, in church sometimes. Of course, in I Corinthians 6, Paul asks the Corinthians if there was not a wise man among them who could judge among his brethren, so perhaps other believers could serve as judges besides apostles. Be that as it may, we have no evidence of 'judge' being the specific duty of an evangelist.

*Follow-up ministry. Is following up evangelistic works the particular role of an evangelist? We know that this was a work apostles did. Paul and Barnabas returned to churches they had planted and strengthened them. But what about the evangelistic ministry? Phillip the evangelist went to Samaria, preached, and left, giving further follow-up work to the apostles who were leaders of the Jerusalem church. In the case of the Ethiopian eunuch, Philip shared the Gospel, baptized the man, and disappeared- talk about not doing follow-up!

I'm not saying evangelists can't do follow-up work, serve as judges, etc. One can be an evangelist and have many other gifts and duties. But I do think it is wrong to apply all the works of Timothy to all evangelists in general.

Ephesians 4:11 says that God has set forth in the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

While we know that some apostles were 'separated' to the ministry with the laying on of hands, the fact remains that God sets these different gifted men in the church. The Bible never says that 'prophets' have to be ordained by the laying on of hands. In I Corinthians 14, Paul says that if any man considers himself to be a prophet or spiritual, to acknowledge that what Paul wrote was the commandment of the Lord. If prophets were ordained, how could there be any room for a man to just 'consider himself' to be a prophet? If 'prophet' is not an 'ordained ministry' which involves the laying on of hands, why would we think that one would have to have hands laid on him to be an evangelist?

In both the Restoration Movement and the evangelical movement, an 'evangelist' is often seen to be a professional preacher, a type of clergyman. In the evangelical movement, an evangelist is generally considered to be an itinerant preacher. The odd thing is that, instead of preaching the gospel to unbelievers, many of them preach mainly to believers in church meetings. Philip went down to Samaria and preached to unbelievers. That is not to say that evangelists can't speak to the church. Evangelists are given to equip the saints for works of service.

I've known of some evangelists that preach the same salvation message over and over again. I've heard some comment that it is easier to prepare preaching as an evangelist. He can go from church to church and preach a different sermon all the time.

Evangelicals often have a narrow understanding of the word 'Gospel.' Many use the word very narrowly to refer to the plan of salvation explained in Paul's letters. But if we look at the way the word 'gospel' was used in the four Gospels, I believe we will get a different picture. The Twelve apostles went on a preaching mission to villiages and towns preaching the Gospel. But what was their message? 'Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.' At the end of Matthew, Jesus' commissioned the apostles to preach the Gospel in the whole word. What were they to teach, 'all things that I have commanded you.' I believe the story of the life and message of Jesus are 'Gospel.' Why would we call the first four books of the NT 'Gospels' if their contents aren't 'Gospel?'

I read an early church quote in _Evangelism in the Early Church_ by Michael Green in which one of the early patristic writers said that it was the job of an evangelist to tell the story of the miracles of Christ.

If we consider some of the early evangelistic techniques of the church, shown in the book of Acts, some of the people involved in evangelism were very astute. Apollos had a thorough knowledge of the scriptures. Paul, Apollos, and others like them, would argue from the Old Testament scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. Many evangelists have a lot to teach the church.

A lot of traditional church organizational structure does not really resemble the church organizational structure in the scriptures. Many think of a church as revolving around a clergyman. The clergyman performs weddings and funerals, gives a long sermon on Sunday morning, and is responsible for the spiritual life of the church. Many people think that 'the laity' should pursue secular interests, go to church on Sunday, and pay money to finance the operations of the church.

However, this set-up is not found in scripture. There is no mention of a clergyman performing weddings or funerals. First century Christians probably married according to existing social customs, though avoiding pagan practices. The apostles appointed 'elders' --plural-- in these churches to be responsible for them. Elders were to be 'apt to teach.' But a careful study of scripture, focusing on such passages as I Corinthians 14 and Hebrews 10 shows us that early believers had meetings in which different believers shared teachings, revelations, songs, tongues, and interpretations. Assembling was an opportunity for mutual exhortation (Hebrews 10:25.) Instead of practicing this today, we have one person speak for the entire teachign time at church. Even in Acts 20:7, when Paul taught all night, the word for 'teach' is the word from which we get the English word 'dialogue.' Paul may have been carrying on a discussion with the saints.

In evangelical churches, there is often one man called 'the pastor.' If there are elders, often the elder role has been redefined to a role different from that in the scriptures. In the Bible, elders were to be 'apt to teach' and were charged to pastor and oversee the flock of God (I Peter 5, Acts 20.) In many congregations, 'elders' are committee members who are not expected to do any pastoral duties.

Some in the RM consider the evangelical role of 'pastor' to be unbiblical. But it seems like the role of 'evangelist' has been modified from the Biblical model, in some RM churches, to basically be the same thing as a traditional evangelical pastor. The evangelist preaches the sermon, does the pastoral duties, and the other things expected of 'a minister.'

Considering all these things, is it possible that there are many unrecognized people who are 'evangelists' in the Biblical sense? Could it be that a pew-sitting brother who, outside of the four walls of a church building, evangelizes unbelievers and strengthens his brethren, could be an evangelist? If Scripture doesn't teach that an evangelist must be ordained by the laying on of hands, could it be that many of them go unignored, while others who have odination or clergy cards are recognized?

-- Link Hudson (link@worldmissions.org), February 13, 2002

Answers

Great subject, Link.

It is good to see you posting again.....I'll have to print out and read what you've said, but the following came to mind:

Jeremiah 3:15

And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

I always think of pastors as ministers to the 'flock' ~ the ones who are already believers; then I think of evangelists as missionaries ` those who preach the gospel from place to place. Elders' roles are similar to pastors'.

Vine's says of evangelist:

A messenger of good; [Messengers usually carry a message from one place to another].

Cp. euangelizo: to proclaim glad tidings, and euangelion: good news; gospel.

How are things in Indonesia?

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 14, 2002.

Every single bornagain Christian is an evangelist. SOME have the gift of evangelism, others must "do the work of an evangelist". NONE of the disciples had 'degrees', or were 'ordained'. (Paul of course was a pharisee among pharisees but counted that as dung).

What's in a title?

-- (blah@blah.blah), February 14, 2002.

blah,

Where is the "gift of evangelism" mentioned in the Scripture?

-- John (johnboy@hotmail.com), February 15, 2002.

Ephesians 4:1-20:

RSV Ephesians 4

4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called,

4:2 with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love,

4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

4:7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

4:8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 4:9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

4:10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AND HIS GIFTS WERE THAT SOME SHOULD BE APOSTLES, SOME PROPHETS, SOME EVANGELISTS, SOME PASTORS, AND TEACHERS...

SO 'PASTORS' ARE O.K. AND 'EVANGELIST' IS A CALLING.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;

4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

4:17 Now this I affirm and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds;

4:18 they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;

4:19 they have become callous and have given themselves up to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of uncleanness.

4:20 You did not so learn Christ! --

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 15, 2002.

Connie,

I'm doing fine in Indonesia. My wife is expecting, and Lord willing, we will mvoe to America next month.

Btw, about the word 'pastor,' a pastor (shepherd) in the Biblical sense is 'okay.' But there are a lot of ideas people have about the word 'pastor' that aren't Biblical. The Bible says nothing about 'pastor' being an occupation that you start by going to Bible college in your youth. It doesn't say that every local church should have it's own 'pastor' who is the head of it. In the Bible, the apostles appointed elders, plural. Acts 20 and I Peter 5 charge elders to pastor the flock of God.

To bla bla,

'Ordained' is used in one of the KJV passages about either Paul and Barnabas or Timothy or Titus appointing elders. Paul and Barnabas laid hands on elders. Paul, Barnabas, and Timothy, who were involved in apostolic ministry, had had hands laid on them as well.

-- Link Hudson (link@world-missions.org), February 16, 2002.

Hi, Link,

Were 'Preachers' and 'Evangelists' sent to Bible College in the way that 'Pastors' were not?

By the way, Paul studied under the tutor Gamaliel, so you can't say he didn't go to school.

It seems to me that the 'Evangelists' and 'Preachers' of the CC/CoC/RM are paid just as Evangelical Pastors are.

Pastors 'shepherd' the flock and care for them as they would if they were truly shepherds on a hillside tending their sheep.

I think that the Restoration Movement has a 'streudel in its noodle' over this office. It was a perfectly legitimate position, just as 'Elder', Evangelist', 'Preacher', 'Teacher' and 'Prophet' were.

We have several elders who fulfill the office just as detailed in the New Testament. They do it as unpaid volunteers and it is no small job. They have to have a calling from God to do it.

IMHO

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 16, 2002.

Jeremiah 3:15

And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

I always think of pastors as ministers to the 'flock' ~ the ones who are already believers; then I think of evangelists as missionaries ~ those who preach the gospel from place to place. Elders' roles are similar to pastors'.

Ephesians 4:1-20: RSV Ephesians 4

4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called,

4:2 with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love,

4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

4:7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

4:8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 4:9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

4:10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AND HIS GIFTS WERE THAT SOME SHOULD BE APOSTLES, SOME PROPHETS, SOME EVANGELISTS, SOME PASTORS, AND TEACHERS...

I see no differentiation between all of these offices. Why are they split to single out the calling and gift of 'pastor'?

Just as everyone is not a hand or a foot, not everyone is a pastor, teacher, preacher or evangelist.

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 16, 2002.

'Course, I believe we should just 'use Bible words for Bible things'.

And we should 'speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent'.

How about you? ;-) ;-)

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 17, 2002.

Connie,

I don't believe it's wrong to go to school. Paul studied under Gamilael, who was the grandson of the even more famous Hillel. Paul considered his Jewish pedigree to be dung that he might know Christ.

Peter and John were considered to be uneducated men by the Sanhedrin, which would have had plenty of educated men. The lists of qualifications for church overseers in the Bible doesn't mention 'seminary educaiton' as a requirement.

The big problem is that, nowadays, so many of the Biblical qualifications for overseer are ignored, and 'pastors' are often chosen based on their educational backgrounds and talents. The apostles appointed elders from within the very congregations. They didn't hire boys out of Bible college to oversee congregations that they didn't know. This is a big difference.

I Peter 5 tells elders to pastor the flock of God willingly, and not for filthy lucre. If a pastor only pastors if he gets a certain wage, is he obeying this command. I don't see any Biblical precedent for a pastor leaving a congregation behind just so he can go to another congregation which is bigger and offers a better dental insurance plan.

-- Link Hudson (link@world-missions.org), February 18, 2002.

From the Apostle Paul:

1 Corinthians 9 RSV 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?

9:2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

9:3 This is my defense to those who would examine me. 9:4 Do we not have the right to our food and drink?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...A RIGHT TO OUR FOOD AND DRINK?....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

9:5 Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

9:6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?

9:7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WHO SERVES AS A SOLDIER AT HIS OWN EXPENSE? WHO PLANTS A VINEYARD WITHOUT EATING ANY OF ITS FRUIT? WHO TENDS A FLOCK WITHOUT GETTING SOME OF THE MILK?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

9:8 Do I say this on human authority? Does not the law say the same? 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned?

9:10 Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of a share in the crop.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...BECAUSE THE PLOWMAN SHOULD PLOW IN HOPE AND THE THRESHER THRESH ***IN HOPE OF A SHARE IN THE CROP***.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

9:11 If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...IS IT TOO MUCH IF WE REAP YOUR MATERIAL BENEFITS?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 9:12 If others share this rightful claim upon you, do not we still more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.

9:13 Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT THOSE WHO ARE EMPLOYED IN THE TEMPLE SERVICE....AND THOSE WHO SERVE AT THE ALTAR SHARE IN THE SACRIFICIAL OFFERINGS?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. 9:15 But I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing this to secure any such provision. For I would rather die than have any one deprive me of my ground for boasting. 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

9:17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward; but if not of my own will, I am entrusted with a commission. 9:18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel.

9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more.

9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law. 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law.

9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

9:23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.

9:25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 9:26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AND THIS:

1 Timothy 5 RSV 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

LET THE ELDERS WHO RULE WELL BE CONSIDERED WORTHY OF DOUBLE HONOR. ['HONORARIUM' COMES FROM THIS SAME GREEK WORD.]

BOTH RESPECT AND PAYMENT.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 5:18 for the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FOR THE ***SCRIPTURE SAYS***...."THE LABORER DESERVES HIS WAGES".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

5:19 Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 5:21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without favor, doing nothing from partiality.

5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man's sins; keep yourself pure.

5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. 5:24 The sins of some men are conspicuous, pointing to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

5:25 So also good deeds are conspicuous; and even when they are not, they cannot remain hidden.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do preachers and evangelists in the CC/CoC/RM serve without being paid? Paul did it that way, but one church did give him money. He also was unmarried with no children.

I believe we should support our preachers and pastors.

Blessings,

Connie

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 19, 2002.

'Honor' and 'honorarium' are actually Latin words.

'Time' (tee-may) and 'timao' (tee-mah-o) are the Greek forms of these words.

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive927@cs.com), February 19, 2002.

Philippians 4 RSV 4:10 I rejoice in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me; you were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity.

4:11 Not that I complain of want; for I have learned, in whatever state I am, to be content.

4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound; in any and all circumstances I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and want.

4:13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

4:14 Yet it was kind of you to share my trouble.

4:15 And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedo'nia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving except you only;

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NO CHURCH ENTERED INTO PARTNERSHIP WITH ME IN GIVING AND RECEIVING EXCEPT YOU ONLY;

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

4:16 for even in Thessaloni'ca you sent me help once and again.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

....FOR EVEN IN THESSALONICA YOU SENT ME HELP ONCE AND AGAIN.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

4:17 Not that I seek the gift; but I seek the fruit which increases to your credit. 4:18 I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphrodi'tus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I HAVE RECEIVED ***FULL PAYMENT***...I AM FILLED HAVING RECEIVED...THE GIFTS YOU SENT....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. 4:20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

4:21 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who are with me greet you.

4:22 All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household. 4:23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Blessings,

Connie

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 19, 2002.

"They didn't hire boys out of Bible college to oversee congregations that they didn't know"

Your right, they didn't hire them, but Paul sent Tim to a congregation that 'didn't know him'.

Was he wrong to do that? I didn't think so.

What about churches that are about to close their doors because there is no leadership....do we close it, or appoint someone to lead (who will ultimately raise up others from that flock)?

Everyone involved in this discussion knows there are those that only pastor to make money...it ain't much of a paycheck, but it is a paycheck.

There are churches where the pastor doesn't even get a vote in church matters, the elders or the congregation decide everything.

What a bummer that church government wasn't covered in more detail in the NT....

-- (blah@bla.blah), February 20, 2002.

Hi, Blah Blue, (may I call you that?)

'Blah' alone seems disrespectful ;-)

I cannot imagine anyone going into a pastorate for the money. (TV evangelist, maybe). It seems to me they would make more as a local McDonald's Manager with less criticism.

Not only do THEY need to be perceived as perfect, but so do their wives and children.

I have never known any pastor who was not a devout person called by God, and some who gave up businesses which paid more, and went back to school so that they could better serve the Lord. And their wives were equally devoted to serving the Lord.

I have seen pastors who gave their entire lives to serve the Lord and their fellow Christians who have been abused by other Christians. (Not at our church, but at our Christian School, where the pay was half to a third of what they could have made in the public schools).

Where are these greedy pastors/preachers/evangelists? I am thankful God has spared me from meeting them.

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 20, 2002.

Connie,

Most of those verses, like the one about the altar, are ina context talking about apostles, those who travelled around actually starting these churches. One passage says that the elders WHO RULE WELL are worthy of double honor. Paul also pointed some elders to his own examlpe of self-support.

Bla bla,

If you study Acts carefully, you will see that Timothy had been to Ephesus early on in the days of Paul's ministry there. They knew Timothy, or the people who had been in the fiath a long time had. But since Paul appointed 'elders' and not 'youngers' to overse churches, and because of the culture, they wereprobably used to older leaders. It is evidence from I Timothy 5:1, Timothy was younger than the elders of the church.

Timothy was an _apostle_. See I Thes. 1:1 and 2:6-7. His work was to travel around with Paul, helping to plant churches, and then go back and strengthen these churches. Assuming that chapter 10 and chapter 1 of II Corinthians were originally fromthe same same letter to the Corinthians (and there are contextual arguments that these are parts of two letters stuck together) Timothy and Paul had authority in Corinth because they both brough the Gospel there.

Timothy, as an apostle together with Paul, had authority in areas where he introduced the Gospel. Elders were 'older men.' Timothy was young. His authority wasn't related to his age, but to the work he had done.

It's possible, I suppose, to argue that Timothy didn't have any authority to appoint elders on his own as an apotle, and was only doing it as an extension of Paul's ministry. Paul was in Ephesus before he came, ministering, after all. Or perhaps Timothy did have the authority, but as the leader of the work Timothy was involved in, Paul left the instructions.

And Timothy was the one to _appoint_ elders in Ephesus. He still had a lot of travelling to do. There is no evidence that he was going to stick around at that time and _be_ a local church overseer. He was given instructions on what type of men were to be appointed to that role. There is a tradition that Iv'e read about that he later seettled down and took up the role of overseer in Ephesus in his later years.

-- Link H. (link@wordld-missions.org), February 20, 2002.

Hello, Link,

I think I recall that you meet and minister in a house church (or perhaps more than one) in Indonesia. How are you supported (may I ask? ~ only if you want to answer). Do you have a title?

Are you the 'norm' for RM churches?

In those verses I posted I see no restriction to just apostles. People in various walks of life are enumerated as being deserving of sharing in the product of the work they performed.

I believe that God wants us to share with and support the people who teach and work among us.

Blessings,

-- Connie (hive827@cs.com), February 21, 2002.