Why do pro's like the black M's?

-- Phil Andrews (philandrews@hotmail.com), February 16, 2002

Answers

Sorry to say such a thing again, Phil (last week I was one of a dozen) but such a question has been asked dozens of times within the last year, so I hope you've looked at all the old postings here. If not, check out e.g.
"Chrome vs. Black?" under
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005Y LS

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), February 16, 2002.

Sorry about that,should have looked first.It's just that I'm buying an M6 soon and wondered if they are different.

I'll go and look at that link.

Thanks

-- Phil Andrews (philandrews@hotmail.com), February 16, 2002.

Well, one's shinier than the other. Personally I think the silver ones are cool. Don't believe all the nonsense about stealth and so on.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), February 16, 2002.

Phil, it's me again. Here are another couple of goodies. Among other things, there are differences (at least for Ms older than M6 TTL) between black chrome and black paint, and then there are the famous sayings about how some of us like the pairings black lens on chrome body etc. Especially if you buy body A today but the good-deal-second-hand lens you buy tomorrow ends up having finish B.

"Lenses: Black vs. Chrome"
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0048 kf

"Inconspicious M outfit"
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006t MG

"Lens-body pairings (black on chrome and vice versa)"
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006v wV

"Black Chrome or Silver Chrome?"
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=007X Hm

"Black chrome vs black paint M6"
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=007X VW

Have a nice weekend!

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), February 16, 2002.

Rob, you are the master of stealth - even with your built in meter...now, which way to the yellow brick road?

But black IS better - chrome just looks too old fashioned for me.

This is such a personal matter that it can only come down to which YOU prefer the look of, as simple as that.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), February 16, 2002.

I chose silver with silver 35 lux. It just jazzes up the appearance, and looks very classic. Black to me was dull, and although it looks good in the brochure (so much so I was gonna get black) silver looks even better in person. This is just my opinion on the aesthetics. Maybe black does add a little to stealthiness. Anyway, silver makes the M6 and lens look like more of a serious machine. Good luck choosing, look at both in person before deciding.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), February 16, 2002.

Back in the mid 70's when I bought by first quality 35mm camera, black was considered a pro camera and chrome was for amateurs.. For models offered in both black and chrome, you had to pay a bit more for the black version. Even though that stereotype is probably not correct, I bought a black camera then and have ever since. At this point a chrome camera just wouldn't look right in my hands. Ultimately it's just a matter of preference. Buy whichever looks good to YOU.

Dale Griffith

-- Dale Griffith (dgrif55@aol.com), February 16, 2002.

Because Black Is Beautiful, Baby.

-- Dolomite Doyle (soilsouth@cox.net), February 16, 2002.

Totally unrelated, but...

Until the mid-1980's most stereo (hifi) equipment was Silver. Then suddenly they all went Black. And now Silver has come back. My old stuff is suddenly cool again, not that I care about it.

Why is it that some Leica lenses are available only in Black? Is it because Leica knows that the demand for those lenses is very low, so they keep the production lines to the barest minimum?

When I was a child, the Hasselblads were the camera of serious pros (the one's who took studio shots). They were only in Black, until now. The four colors are quite attractive. Maybe they'll tap into a new market. Leica does this too, but only for the investors (collectors).

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 16, 2002.

I don't mean to state the obvious, but the chrome lenses are a bit heavier, and this alone leads me to buy black. As for bodies, I don't care. I have one of each, just because they were what I inherited (chrome) and found a cheap deal on (black).

I like to work like the old guys and keep color in the chrome body and B+W in the black body.

As for body/lens pairings, I will second my own vote for black lenses. Black lenses look good on either camera, but chrome lenses on a black body? Dahling, it just isn't done...

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), February 16, 2002.

I don't know why they don't stick to just one color, Black, I suppose, and concentrate their efforts in putting out more products and more quality.

Quality is what attracts people to this brand in the first place, not the color. They can always make limited editions of various colors for the sissies who collect these things and don't like to use them. That will drive up their revenue and profit margins, providing more R&D money to create news lenses. Like some super wides for instance, preferably with low f-stops. I'll give up color choice for that.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 16, 2002.

Phil, you're missing the point. The issue isn't which color the pros like. The question is, "Which color do good-looking women prefer?"

[sorry, it's hard to take the question seriously anymore. ; ) ]

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), February 16, 2002.

Mike, that's a terrible parallax problem you've got with your M - you've cut the top of 'er 'ead off!

;)

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), February 16, 2002.

That's the trouble with girls who are 5'11"--they just don't fit in the frame . . . ; )

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), February 16, 2002.

Ultimately its personal preference and mine is for brushed chrome. That was what the finish was called for a few decades before "silver chrome" came into vogue.

As far as Leica is concerned I suspect both marketing and manufacturing play a role in their production decisions. I don't believe any chrome lenses have been made for the R series, although the original Leicaflex had chromes in 35,50, and 90 focal lengths.

Then there was a spell of a decade or so where no M lenses were made in chrome. Now it seems that new M lenses are introduced in black, with chrome generally following in a couple of years. Again, probably to establish the manufacturing line and fulfilling the initial demand for those who will want one of the newest quickly, then as that demand abates somewhat, producing in chrome. They did that with bodies also; witness the M6.

Functionally, the only differences would appear to be that chrome wears better, and the scales on black lenses are easier to read in low light.

While many would argue that the weight difference is also a "functional" attribute I've never really bought into that arguement. Has any one ever calculated how many Leica lenses of the varying focal lengths one would have to carry to see a difference of one kilo total for black vs. chrome? Could you even reach that total with todays production? I don't think so but am comforted by the fact that someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW- The Hasselblad was initially (first 15 years or so) chrome body and lenses only. Now I believe all lenses are black and have been so for almost 30 years.

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), February 16, 2002.

The Leica R lenses only come in black.

Leica has one of the lowest production levels of high quality camera manufacturers, yet they are probably the only ones who have the chrome and black option on lenses. I suppose this says more about the clientele than about Leica. Obsessed with quality but focused on vanity, as far as equipment goes! Most pictures though, are at the Topcon or Vivitar level (with scratched Hoya filters). (I include myself in this category, so hold the flames.)

The black vs. chrome thing is reaching comical proportions, doesn't Leica realize the amount of angst they are causing by giving grown people a choice. I wonder how many man-years have been spent thinking about black vs. chrome.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 16, 2002.

Vikrum,

Probably not as many as people spend contemplating the color of the next car they order, but the same wheels are turning in their mind when they do.

And besides the simply vanity related reasons, even that cogitation can have a "functional" basis too.

Do you have a camera/lens finish preference?

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), February 16, 2002.

Mike, I'm envious of the babes you get to photograph! Thanks for posting them.

Hmn, seems like this color issue is bringing in some stronger responses relating to what's the more basic and manly choice. I say it's just a color choice, and I prefer the heft of the silver lenses. As for black being the only color offered on certain lenses, well isn't that common sense- how much would some of the longer focal lengths weigh given brass/chrome construction? Who would want to buy that? Either lens color is fine, I like the silver 35 lux and black 75.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), February 16, 2002.

"Do you have a camera/lens finish preference?" -- Jerry

Jerry,

My comments were more of a public self-criticism than aimed at others, for one should be able to laugh at oneself, and because I spent a few minutes actually thinking about the color of the body.

As some wag stated in an earlier thread: "If you get a Black body, you will wish you got a Silver one, and vice versa." I went through that experience for a bit. I suppose it is a strange form of buyer's remorse.

To help future M owners, here's the current M lineup:

21mm mar, 24mm mar, 35mm lux/cron, 50mm lux/cron/mar, 90mm mar = Black OR Chrome

28mm cron/mar, Tri-Elmar, 50mm Noct, 75mm lux, 90mm cron, 135mm telyt = Black ONLY

The above seems to have no logic to it.

I chose black because I could have any lens that matches the body. Call me boring, but c'est la vie.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 16, 2002.

For years I bought black. Then a few months ago I bought a silver M6 Classic. All my silver lenses looked cool on it. It brought meaning to my life.

And just why did you cut the top of your model's head Mike?

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), February 17, 2002.

Alex, the simple answer is that I thought it looked better that way. Having her eyes closer to the top of the frame draws more attention to them. The original slide has more forehead, but the extra empty space around her head at the top put things "off balance." I think I wanted the brick at the bottom to fill more of the frame, but I couldn't lower the model without screwing up her posture.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), February 17, 2002.

Vikram,

First of all a couple of "Mea Culpas". I realized that I spelled your name incorrectly in a previous post. "No greater sin....etc., etc.

Secondly, I had no intention of infering any "elitist" posture on your viewpoint. It was simply argued on my part that given the choice where available, most will balance the options with the functionality of each finish. Then of course.. you pays your money and makes your choice where is one.

I suspicion that the list of "black only" lenses will be reduced in time. Already there is a Titanium version of the 90 'cron being produced, using the same barrel materials as chrome lenses. Next cadidates are the 28 'cron and the Tri-Elmar. Ver 1 of the 3E already had a chrome version during its short run.

Because marketing and sales are probably twisting productions arm to produce these in chrome as we speak, it will no doubt happen. Probably within a year or so.

That would leave only the 135, 75, and the Noctilux on the "black list". There isn't that large a market for the 135 lens, as good as it purportedly is, so we may never see a chrome version.

The decision on the 75 'lux may have been made long ago as to whether ever to produce it in chrome. Its coming up on two decades of production now and I doubt you'll ever see it in that finish. It would be very, very heavy. Although I think the short tele focal length of 75 would be enticing, I can do without the speed (and cost!). If they made a 75 in f/2 for public consumption I'd be tempted though. Rumor has had it for several years that they have formulated and produced a lens with those parameters with fantastic performance, unfortunately it's only customer has been the US goverment for satellite use. They in turn will not allow production for the public. If true, I imagine that as a taxpayer I've already bought a few of them.

The one lens that I'd bet will never see a chrome finish is the Noctilux. Of limited production throughout its life, it has seen only one finish. As a "signature" lens for Leica, I could not imagine it in any other finish than black given its use, and I suspect they can't either. In chrome it would probably weigh a kilo.

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), February 17, 2002.

My last words only sum up what has been said elsewhere: if I have the chance, I'll only buy a black M lens. Every current M lens brand new is black, and a black lens looks good on any M body finish. Sure hope the 75 'cron comes out in black first.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), February 18, 2002.

Interesting to note that the new 90 APO Summicron in titanium is 660g per the Leica brochure, versus 500g for the normal black version, and would make it heavier than the Noctilux (at 630g)!

-- Gregory Goh (gregorygoh@hotmail.com), February 24, 2002.

The question is, "Which color do good-looking women prefer?"

Okay, Mike, if my shots could turn out a fraction as good as yours do, I'd buy a red TTL tomorrow.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), February 24, 2002.

The question is, "Which color do good-looking women prefer?" A: gold and platinum

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), February 26, 2002.