I think even John will like this one. :)

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/August2001/0801Neusner.htm

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), February 18, 2002

Answers

Jeffrey

Many thanks for this article -- It helped clear up a problem -- My wife will love it and thank you.. GOD BLESS

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), February 19, 2002.

Jeffrey,

Great article. It brings up many more questions in my mind about when "Life" begins in the bread? It has the potential for Life, and according to the article begins to have life when water and yeast are added to begin the fermentation process.

Is this why the Priest drops the one piece of the host in the chalice that contains the wine and water during consecration? Wouldn't the presence of wine (which I believe contains natural yeast enzymes already) and water begin the development of life in the bread?

Very interesting. So amazing to see how many times science catches up with scripture and Church teachings years and years after. How about the amazing revelation that a glass of red wine is actually good for you on a daily basis? Took science until the last decade on that one, but Christians and Jews have been practicing that for centuries.

Thanks,

-- Christian (wardirish@yahoo.com), February 19, 2002.

Christian,

I'm not certain, as I don't often see a priest dip the bread in the wine unless he's intincturing (possibly because of alcohalism).

No, I think the "potential for life" Neusner was speaking of dealt more with the way the bread is made in the first place. It has potentialities that rice does not have.

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), February 19, 2002.

"... even John ..." -- Cute, Jeffrey!

Jeffrey, Christian is referring to the placement of a fragment of the Host into the chalice after the "fraction" (breaking of the Bread) during the "Lamb of God." This occurs in every Mass.

Our Host doesn't have "potential for life" but is Life Himself.
God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.

John,

Oh, ok. :) I was never an altar server before coming to the seminary, and I guess I just hadn't been paying enough attention to exactly what was done with the broken bread.

As far as the potential for life/actual life, I thought we were speaking of the Eucharistic elements, specifically what needs to be present before consecration takes place. Before consecration, wheat (as opposed to rice) has potentiality for life--which is actualized by the Eucharistic celebration. Is that correct, John?

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), February 20, 2002.

I read somewhere that the dropping of a particle of the Host in the chalice meant that since on the Cross the Blood of Jesus separated from His Body, so in the Mass that "apparent" separation is somewhat symbolically "remedied" by uniting both elements. And by the way since in death our body and soul are separated, this could also mean the reunification of body and soul of Christ in the Resurrection.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), February 20, 2002.

John,

Thanks for clarifying what I meant by the "Fraction". I watched the consecration and Eucharist preparation very carefully this morning. Although I could not see the fraction clearly enough, I am curious why that is done. I recognize it probably has nothing to do with potentiality of life in the bread, but I thought it may be an interesting unintended relationship.

Another side question. What is the actual Moment of Consecration according to the Church?

Thanks,

-- Christian (wardirish@yahoo.com), February 20, 2002.

The Transubstantiation occurs when the priest during the invocation of the Holy Spirit asks:

And so Father, we bring these gifts. We ask you to make them holy by the power of your Spirit, that they may become the body and blood of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate this eucharist.

From the Roman Missal - 3rd Eacharistic Prayer.

-- FB (abody@host.com), February 20, 2002.

Jmj -- Hello, folks.

Jeffrey, you wrote:
"Before consecration, wheat (as opposed to rice) has potentiality for life -- which is actualized by the Eucharistic celebration. Is that correct, John?"
Rabbi Neusner may have made that statement, but I must say that I had never come across a reference to "potentiality for life ... actualized" before. I am not a theologian, so I don't know if it is proper for us to adopt that language to refer to the Holy Eucharist.

Enrique, I have read two interpretations of the fraction -- more often the one you mentioned. I am glad that you referred to the "'apparent' separation" of the Blood and Body of Jesus in the Mass, as it is now (since the Resurrection) impossible physically to separate the two.

Chistian, you asked, "What is the actual Moment of Consecration according to the Church?"

That is an interesting question. I have heard that the moment occurs at one point in the Latin Rite Mass -- but slightly earlier in the Divine Liturgies of the Eastern Rites. FB quoted a text from the Latin Rite -- the invocation of the Holy Spirit, known as the "epiclesis" -- and stated that this is the moment of consecration.

I have to disagree with FB, though you'll see in a moment that there is a kernel of truth in what he wrote. In the Latin Rite Mass, the moment of consecration/transubstantiation is actually at the priest's repetition of Jesus's words of "institution" ("This is my Body ... Blood"). But in the Eastern Rites, the moment of consecration is at the time of the Epiclesis (invocation of the Holy Spirit).

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 21, 2002.

We are in the presence of a holy mystery when we assist at the breaking of the bread and transubstantiation. It is the breaking which is *fractionamiento del pan*. The tiny bit reunited in the cup of Our Saviour's Precious Blood signifies (for me) a new life. When our priest says the words of Consecration, a ''separation'' or death takes place; Body and Blood apart from one another. This is Calvary recalled to our presence. Recalled by the mystery of our Saviour's True Presence.

Not as the fraction. Fraction takes place when the priest breaks the bread for the first time, and then says the words of Consecration. ''He took bread in His holy and venerable hands, broke it and said, This is my Body . . . ''

Nothing can be more mysterious or holy. Thanks be to God!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 21, 2002.

And it won't work with rice. *sigh* And I really like rice, too. (I'm being facetious)

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), February 22, 2002.

Gene, you wrote:
"Not as the fraction. Fraction takes place when the priest breaks the bread for the first time, and then says the words of Consecration."

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but, in reality, a priest who follows the rubrics of the Mass does not break the altar bread before speaking the words of consecration (despite the fact that Jesus did break the bread at that point).
The "fraction" refers to the only "breaking of the Bread," that which is done during the recitation or singing of the "Agnus Dei."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

Yow! Twice in two days with these italics!

-- (_@_._), February 22, 2002.