This is the whole story real names included. My Mothers statement to her Lawyer.

The OSPCA officers (Kelly Murphy and her partner) had been to my home twice before because they had gotten complaints about the health of my animals. When they inspected my animals they came to the conclusion that I was taking good care of all my pets and livestock.

Phillip Ashley had been bugging me to castrate his dog Oscar for about two weeks before I acually gave in and did it. He knew I had a device that I purchased at my local feed mill called an elastrator.

Phillip brought Oscar to my house sometime in September of 2001. He held the dog while I cleaned the area and iodine on and around the dogs testicles. Then while Phillipwas still holding the dog I put a specially made elastic on the Elastrator and slipped it over the dogs testicles and released it. When the elastic tightened the dog was put on the ground and it followed us like nothing had happened. It did not seem to be in any pain or suffering.

Phillip asked me to keep Oscar at my house for awhile. So I agreed. I sprayed the area twice every day with iodine to make sure infection did not set in.

Then after about two weeks Phillip came to my house to get his dog. When the dog left my home he was still acting like a normal healthy dog. Oscar had a good appetite and showed no signs of pain. The area looked clean and healthy.

Then somtime in September, 2001 Kelly Murphy and her partner from the OSPCA came to my home again. They told me I had put an elastice on a dog to castrate him and that the dog had become infected. They asked me if I had done it to any other dogs. I said yes, that I had also done it to one of my dogs. The other dog was my own dog Tonka. Kelly and her partner inspected Tonka between his legs. They told me that I had done this dog because they could see that Tonka had no anal sac.

Kelly Murphy then began threatening me by saying they could come take all of my animals from me including my livestock. I was so upset at the thought of losing my animals that I began to cry. Kelly continued to write in her note book.

I told Kelly that if I had known it was illegal to use the elastrator on a dog I would not have done it. I did'nt think I was doing anything wrong because I purchased the tool, elastics and the iodine at my local feed mill where I buy all of my supplies for my animals. There was no warnings or restrictions posted on the package that the elastrator came in, so I was unaware that it was wrong to use it on Oscar. Kelly then told me that I would be charged for cruelty to animals. Then she handed me a notepad and told me to sign it, so I signed the paper and handed it back. Kelly and her partner got into their truck and lft.

Four months later on January 25, 2002, Kelly Murphy and her partner from the OSPCA came to my house again to charge me for causing unnecessary pain and suffering o a canine (Oscar) and for not providing adequate care for such canine.

Kelly advised me of the court date and said that they requested that I be put on probation and that all my male dogs be taken from my possesion. Then Kelly continued to tell me not to worry and if I needed a home for a small dog, she had someone who would take one.

I asked Kelly if they would like to check my animals while they were already here. Kelly and her partner both said that there was no need because they could see that I was taking good care of my pets.

Then Kelly and her partner left again.

That is the whole story in my Mothers own words. If you have any suggestions as to things that might help her case please let me know.

-- Spring Peterson (jerk@ihorizions.net), February 21, 2002

Answers

Sounds like they are talking out of both sides of their mouths. The animals look great, but we are going to take them away, oh by the way if you need a home for a small dog I just happen to have a home for it????? Have you checked your local laws, regarding this type of an incident? You sound like you need to seek legal advice especially to find out if you did or did not violate any laws.

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 21, 2002.

Ok, I know that I said that I smelled a rat on your first post.....If I am wrong about you I am truly sorry! That does sound awful about what they did to your Mother. I still fail to see how "anonymous" testimonies would help her. I agree with the post above mine that you need to seek legal aide. Sounds like maybe you need some advice and that maybe your Mom inadvertantly signed something that gave some of her legal rights away. Does she know what she signed? Again....you have GOt to know how fishy your story sounds. I am one of those gullible types and your story just didn't ring true to me. I am still not sure about the whole thing, but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. You certainly sound as if you could use someone on your side of things if you are telling the truth!!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 21, 2002.

You are really cool Nan. :-)

-- Chuck (reply@mission4me.com), February 22, 2002.

Sounds fishy to me...

The anal sac is NOWHERE near the scrotum. Anal sacs are just inside the anus (rectum).

The same prosecution procedure would happen if such a case happened here. Is the application of an elastrator illegal where you are too? I think the old saying "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is an international one.

-- Cowvet (cowvet_nz@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

Question 1. What is the "law" that has been voilated? the court paper would have this stated and a code number on it.

Question 2. An anal sac in inside of the dog, not the out side, why don't any of the people involved know this?

Question 3. Have your or your mother, or her lawyer seen the dog or the vet bill?

Question 4. Who reported all of this to the animal control?

Qyestion 5. Why are there repeted calls to animal control?

Question 6. What state are you in?

Question 7. How are anonymous letters going to help?

Question 8. Why is the dogs owner not being charged?

I can find most of the old post about this, and list them here for you, so you can print them out. I think your mother needs a better lawyer.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

Here is the list of post that I know about.

Under Pet Care:

Personal follwup to the neutering cats/pets thread

Banded Tom Cat

Success with banding tom-cat

elastrator use on tom cats

Dogs castration question

Banding Tom-Thanks folks

More questions on castrating cats

Then Under Pets:

Cat Banding responces

Castrating a cat at home /rubberband style

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

Two more questions, Spring, Why are you useing a fake email address?

and cowvet, where do you live?

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

An apology may be forth coming on the fake email question, Spring emailed me direct, I hadn't checked my mail until after I was last here. I realize now that she may have not checked for responces to come to her.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

The obvious answer why someone doesn't use a real email address for web forum posts is that they don't wish to be the recipient of dozens of email spam per day. There is nothing at all wrong with that. In fact it is quite common because of the continuous problem of huge volumes of spam email that people get. Also many millions of people consider their private email address exactly that, private for use of only who they wish to corrospond with.

I participate in a few forums using my real name but with a non-existant non-spammable email addy. On occasion I will send someone in a forum a private email in response to a question or arrange to exchange email if needed. This can even be done without anyone revealing their private email address.

Sophisticated email harvesters work everywhere on millions of pages on the web and on newsgroups. They also can be set to filter out many common added words to a email address such as johndoe@nospamhotmail.com or johndoeremovethis@hotmail.com and many similar.

As for establishing a throwaway email account just for web posts: It will only work for a very short period of time unless you constantly take a lot of extra time to sign on & delete all the spam mail you get. Thats a lot of extra hours of wasted time that could be better spent on other things and should not be necessary at all.

Unfortuately, email spam is a gigantic pernicious problem and a huge invasion of privacy. Even though illegal in most instances enforcement of email spam is almost impossible. Its quite ok to not use a real email address if one does not want to subject one to that.

My 2 cents, Michael C

-- Michael C (noemailon@webposts.com), February 22, 2002.

I think cowvet may come from New Zealand. Hi there cowvet, me too. Annie

-- wenholm annie (nzcowfarmer5@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

Hey everyone, I got an email from "Spring". Why should this person care if I doubt her or not? The longer this goes on, the more I think something is fishy here. Yes, I know I'm a skeptic, but this just doesn't "feel" right. And, if I'm wrong, who cares!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

NO Ardie, "who cares" is on the other post! heeheehee! And yes she or he may not be telling the whole truth, but she does obviously need help if she is even telling a partial truth. I think that she said that about needing anonymous testimonies because she was trying to figure out some way to help her mother. She or he just didn't realize that was not the way to go about it. So.....Spring, do you have any legal defense? Even court appointed would be better than nothing and I would suggest you try to contact them. If you are not running a tidy place it might also help to get everything in order around the place so that they have nothing else to get you for on your other animals. It couldn't hurt. You might also see if the same officer has charged anyone else. See what, if anything, happened in that circumstance. Thumper came up with some excellent suggestions! Of course she IS from OKLAHOMA! :~D heehee!

-- Nan from OK (davidl41@ipa.net), February 22, 2002.

Another issue for which you should be concerned about is practicing veterinary medicine without a license. As I understand it you can give YOUR animals/livestock shots, medication, neuter, disbud etc.... but you cannot do anything to someone elses animal/livestock.

That was how it was explained to me. I could be wrong but you might want to check into this in case this issue arises.

-- Anita in NC (anitaholton@mindspring.com), February 22, 2002.

You know, I frankly don't care if this question is for real or not. It's more or less on topic for this forum and has the potential for real knowledge to come out.

The real heart of this matter, whether it's a real incident or not, is whether it is OK to use an elastrator on a dog to castrate it? It's not my idea of the way to go about it for dogs, calves or any animal but others may legitimately feel differently. This all assumes that it was properly applied and properly tended to until the wound site is healed.

For what it's worth I stopped off in town last night to see if the neighbor I knew that had done this was still living where last I knew him to be and he is not. Seems he moved back home to California about five years ago so I have no means of contacting him nor know where he is so I can't provide any assistance in that regard.

.......Alan.

-- Alan (athagan@atlantic.net), February 22, 2002.

Well, guess what...I think we all got emails from Spring! Sorry, but I have to stand behind my previous posts. NO..not one...attorney would tell her to get annynomous testimony or handle a case this way. The guy wouldn't even have been able to pass the bar! Nothing in this makes any sense. If I am wrong then my sincerest apology to Spring...and, oh yeah, also if legit...get another lawyer!

-- Karen (mountains_mama2@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

UH OH Alan...."POP" went that can of worms! Those of us who raise calves usually use an elastrator. At least those that live around here do. Some use a razor blade and for me that would just be YUCKY! (With a capital YUCK!) Since I am the one to help take care of the calves, cutting would not even be an option! It is different on dogs though......like the people said before. A dog or cat can get back there and chew the rubber band off and make a real mess of things. There are so many posts on the subject of whether it is morally right or an abomination, that it would literally make your head spin. Most of us know the facts about castration and it is really up to the individual to decide what is best for his/her livestock. I would be guessing that most people would say that the use of an elastrator on a dog or cat is a NO NO. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but that it is very difficult for the dog and cat! Let's say that we try to help Spring out and then discuss elastration on a different thread so that she or he can get the help she needs now. For her it is toooo late to decide if what was done was the right thing to do. Water under the bridge so to speak..........

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 22, 2002.

Karen, if you look at my post above it says that I think that she was telling us a partial truth about the lawyer asking for anonymous testimonies. Spring, it would really help out if you confessed about the anonymous business and then we could get on with the way to help you out! Otherwise people are going to be stuck on that and when you tell a little white one, people won't believe the whole shebang! (Why is it that people don't think that their fib is obvious, but everyone else does??????) Now that is a stumper! heehee!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 22, 2002.

this whole thing sounds wierd...If I needed a lawyer, I wouldn't air my dirty laundry here.

-- julie (jbritt@ceva.net), February 22, 2002.

I'm trying to figure out what in Spring's post you don't believe? I don't mean to be a smartass but this sort of stuff really happens. As a former state humane agent I was mandated to up hold the law. There is some flexibility in your judgement but the law is the law. If the agent is a jerk your sunk. The state you live in makes a big difference. Here in Minnesota you can not dock a dogstail or trim their ears, a liscenced vet has to with anesthetic (sp). Most states make a distinction between pets and livestock and how they are treated. A farm dog also has different laws protecting it versus a pet dog.

When I lived in the city I had a pet rabbit. He had a really nice hutch outside up against the house. Tucked in between the house and a fence on three sides. My neighbor called the humane society and complained about my cruilty to my rabbit. They thought is was cruil to keep it outside in the winter. The humane society called me and threatened me with a lawsuit if the rabbit died. It did not batter what it died of. Go Figure!!! The person on the other end of the phone said that animals needed fresh water at all times.My rabit got fresh water twice a day every day. I asked her what wild rabbits did for water in Minnesota in the winter. She tried to tell me that wild animals find open water in the winter. I defy anyone to find open water in the winter here, the Mississippi even freezes over. So don't poopoo Springs story it happens.

Susan

-- Susan In Minnesota (nanaboo@paulbunyan.net), February 22, 2002.

Nan,

As I clearly stated in my post there are and will be others who legitimately disagree with my position on elastrators whether we're talking bull calves or dogs. That's fine, we're talking management methods here and there can be several ways to get a job done. Provided they all accomplish the same end and do not cause undue suffering then they're all OK.

As far as banding a dog and their ability to chew the band off that's no different than bandaging a dog. If they're going to chew on it then either come up with some way to protect the bandage or put one of those wide cone shaped collars (the name escapes me at the moment) on them so they can't reach it. That's a simple management problem that is fairly easily solved.

There are no moral issues involved here, just management issues. A dog is an animal, a calf is an animal. As animal owners we have an obligation treat them humanely but "humane" has been steadily evolving to mean different things to different people. Why is it OK to band or cut a bull calf to castrate him and not OK to do the same to a dog? Is it because one is a food animal and the other is generally kept as a pet? I have a dog, intend to get two more over time but NONE of them will be pets. They're working animals whose job it is to watch the homestead. They're entitled to a certain amount of care just as are the goats, cows, and so on.

How much resources one is going to spend on them depends largely on how valuable the animal is to you. Most folks who won't spend much in the way of resources to minister to a sick or injured chicken but will do so for a dog or a cow because the dog or cow is more valuable per individual animal than the chicken. Others, however, will spend a great deal on physicing sick poultry either because they've become emotionally involved with them and made pets of the bird or they're expensive show or breeding stock worth spending the time and effort on. The same situation with the dog. Few folks get in an uproar over castrating calves, pigs or goats at home but let someone do the same thing to a dog and all of a sudden things are much different. Why?

A dog is an animal, is an animal, is an animal. Providing that you do the procedure correctly and do not cause undue suffering why should it be any more wrong to castrate your own dog as it is your own calf or pig?

Personally, elastrators are not the way I would do this kind of thing but others by right should be able to make their own decisions. Given the facts as Spring has thus far stated them the only person I can see that is in the wrong is the dog's owner for not properly tending the wound. If they succesfully prosecute this woman solely on the basis of castrating the dog then every owner of cattle, goats and pigs in that state had better take notice.

........Alan.

-- Alan (athagan@atlantic.net), February 22, 2002.

I, too, got a personal email from Spring. Said he/she was 25 years old. The vocabulary didn't sound quite right for a person of that age, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt. (I was harassed for having a horse in my front yard by "well meaning" folks driving by) If you ever watch Animal Precinct on Animal Planet you know that they promise to treat the owners well but then come back and arrest them for the things they blow off at the time. They maintain that they are not wanting to escalate an already uncomfortable situation. What a load of ASSORTED CRAP. Anyway, Ms. Spring's mom should go to the head dude/dudette and attempt to talk with them. With counsel. And see what complaints have been filed. Sounds pretty interesting. Is Oscar still alive? If she didn't get paid is she still practicing "medicine" without a license? Can we even give our dogs aspirins or food/water without a license? Humane Societies and such do a wonderful job but seem to miss the obvious cruelty cases in favor of others. They are REQUIRED by law to investigate ALL reported cases.... GOOD LUCK!

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), February 22, 2002.

spring,, it seems to me that your lawyer should doing the leg work here. you are the client.why are you or mother getting statements from strangers for your case? doesnt make sense. do these people have a warrant to be on your property? what did you sign and why?why arent you refering them to your attorney when they hassle you?why hasnt your attorney sent them a letter telling them to stop harrassing you and you will deal with it in court?it seems to me if you have an attorney he would be handling this and you wouldnt be seeking advise from public forum. good luck, cody

-- cody (urbusted@alltel.net), February 22, 2002.

Susan, it isn't the story that is in question...it is the way on the other thread that she said that she needed anonymous testimonies to help out her case. The anonymous is what has us all wondering about the other. I know that things like that happen, no doubt. Just also know that when you mix some possible untruths with the other stuff it makes it hard to swallow the ....rest of the story. I hope that I made myself clear.....but probably didn't Sorry....check out the part of the other post about her needing to find anonymous dog elastrator people.

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 22, 2002.

If "Spring" has all these trials and tribulations going on in her life, how come she has the time to email us personally?? And, why would she care if strangers believe her or not? Again...I think that this is a phoney post...although it is a bit entertainingly humorous.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

I find it interesting the spring can email so many of us, [our addresses are real], but she ,who is in such great need of our help doesn't want the responces as quickly as possible. I still get responces from post I did near the middle of last year,

I do inderstand what Michael C is talking about, but I wondered if I would have gotten a longer lecture if I hadn't already mentioned an apology.......[I'm teasing, don't bite me. ;-) ]

I have noticed there is slight shift in consideration, with the use of an elstrator on dogs not being acceptable because the dog will chew on themself, I will point out again, that the problem is from the dog chewing, not from the band itelf, anyone who puts a dog out, with out supervision, or proper follow up care, after any kind of treatment for anything, is being negligent and that is where the "crime" is, not with the method used.

There is much concern about the pain the [male] dog feels, yes there is a nerve to that body part, it is squeezed right along with the blood vessels and the vas deferens, I have no doubt that it hurts some, for a LITTLE while, much like a strong clothes pin on an ear lobe, [something many children do for fun] then it goes to sleep, pressure on a nerve and on blood vessels does that. How often have you felt your arm or leg "go to sleep" normally you don't, you do feel it wake up though, THAT is what hurts.

I expect that most of the discomfort, is from itching, as the dead tissue developes into what is basicly a large scab.

Dogs that I myself, have seen banded, fidgeted and moved around in a manner that reminded me if 1st time labor/delivery females, [I pay very close attention to any chance to learn anything first hand] This continued for several hours, {my notes are packed away somewhere, I can't remember the actual length time} then after that, he played and ran and jumped, streached out on his belly, and acted completely normal [for a dog with a cone on his head] the cone was even removed for short periods of time to let him lick after releaving himself outside, he did nose the dead tissue, as if it where a foreign object suck to his hair, but he was never left alone, with out the cone on. And would the dead tissue alone when told "no, leave it" and the cone was replaced,

I was also told to keep ANY animal that has been banded away from dogs, because the some dogs will try to 'snatch' the dead tissue off, and that can cause the skin to tear, if it is not ready to come off.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

Nan, and a few others, you would have to have read her earlier thread to understand why myself and others are responding the way they have in this thread. She had stated before that they DO have an attorney and what her attorney's advice is. Go read that thread and this will all make more sense.

-- Karen (mountains_mama2@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

That should have said ,"...he would leave the dead tissiue alone..." [ following a basic obedience comand ],

{so much for my proof reading}

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

Funny Karen, that is what I just told someone else to do. I read the posts from the other question and I agree with you...it does still seem fishy. I am just trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think that she lied about the lawyer's anonymous testimonies business. I think that she is telling the truth about her mom being in trouble though. That is why I asked her to admit to the part that she didn't tell the truth about so that we can sort out just how we can help her if she is for real! Did that make sense?

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 22, 2002.

Maybe we should all move on to another subject, as "Spring" has gotten enough advice( and attention) now.

Someone mentioned castrating a parakeet awhile back............

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

oh, Ardie, that made me laugh, ....I'll leave it to Stan or someone else to state the placement for the band on that one !!!!....LOL...

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

In defense for the opposite sex among the dogs, seems to be that the elasticator is out because the dog can reach it and damage himself. How about starting a hue and cry about spaying bitches? Went through that with a Spitz that would not leave her stitches alone. Had a cone but was smart enough to work it around so that she could get at the incision. I don't hear any PETA people saying that that is terribly cruel as probably half of them have been "spayed" as well! I was creating steers and gilts when I was 12 years old with a bottle of iodine and a sharp Lone Ranger pocket knife. Tamed down a number of tom cats as well! That was the way it was on the farm for millenia. Uncle took care of turning potential stallions into geldings so that I would not be possibly kicked into next week. We never lost an animal due to our knife work.

Bottom line here also is that I smell a rat in the original post. Either that or there are certainly some naive people in this world who don't have a clue as to what is going on. Spring "signed" a paper on a notepad. Brain is working overtime to try to envision what would have been on that pad to admit guilt of a wrongdoing or whatever. It is the big money donees who are giving money to programs to save the animals via neutering and spaying. And someone following that advice and being convicted for it? If you can't smell something here, we'll blame it in the weather affecting the sinuses!

Keep that pocket knife sharp!

-- Martin Longseth (paquebot@merr.com), February 23, 2002.

I asked for annonomys (sp) because I did not think anyone was going to admitt to doing something that they could be arrested and charged for under the criminal code. I live in Ontario, Canada, and I am just looking for advice on what I should be looking into.

I believe Karen made a coment about my email adress. For her info my Moms name is Geraldine and her nick name is Jerk.

-- Spring Peterson (jerk@ihorizions.net), February 23, 2002.

Answer to some of your questions.

1. My mom signed what she beleived was her statement, but they didn't give her time to read it. She was very upset at the thought of the OSPCA taking her animals away and was home by herself, so she did not have anyone who could step in and ask questions.

2. There is a small flap of skin between the dogs back legs after a vet neuters the dog. That is what the OSPCA reffered to as the anal sac. Inside the dogs rectum is the anal glands.

3. We don't know what became of Oscar but my moms lawyer is going to find out when he requests the statment that my mother signed.

4. A woman (if you can call her that) was renting a house from my mother. She was given an eviction notice and I guess she felt that she had to get back at my Mom by making two complaints to the OSPCA. The fist complaint was that the animals were starving and the second was about Oscar.

5. There was also a call last year that brought the OSPCA to the farm. My parents had bought a young bull that had a salinium E problem and became sick with white muscle disease. The vet was called in and they have a $600.00 vet bill to proove the animal was not be mistreated.

6. The dog owner is also being charged but I don't know what for. He was also sent the vet bill from the OSPCA for fixing the dog.

Note for Ardie If you think something is fishey then why are you waisting your time reading about it?

-- Spring Peterson (jerk@ihorizions.net), February 23, 2002.

Oh! I feel much better about the whole thing now Spring! Glad that you cleared all of that up and told us that your Lawyer wasn't the one that requested the anonymous testimonies. And yes...you are right, no one is going to give you a testimony and suffer the consequences. So......you have some really good advice given. Let us know if it all works out okay.

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 23, 2002.

Ok Spring, well said, Did you find the post from the past listings? After you read them, you will understand exactly the reaction you got from your question, and it makes a big difference where you live,

Try to find a large animal vet, one who treats cows, and ask them to verify the pain that banding would cause, print out all the post, save the ones that are supportive, then find an answer (responce to) for each negative posting [just to be prepaired], try to find statistics on animals that have died with vet treatment.

I was taught that anal "glands" are attached to the anal "sac" which is a pocket next to the gland and it is these that must at times be the emptied by a squeeze in the right place. {and that is a bad smell you will never forget} Glands secrete, the sac [or pocket] can become blocked and inflamed thus needing to be squeezed to empty them. [ Am I wrong on that? anyone? I am willing to admit that I don't remember every thing right, but that is what I remember from the chart the vet showed me, when it was explained to me]

And the correct name for the "sack" is scrotum, grown people should use the correct terms, some slang terms at are common are, 'purse', 'nut sac', 'bag',or even 'balls sac', calling it an anal sac maybe common in Canada, but I am definitely not the only one who has never heard that one before.

And friend of mine in animal control, told me that pups done very young also have little or nothing to show, so apperance alone would not be conclusive.

And... I DO hope things go well for your mother, and that you can forgive our suspicions about your request for help.

Good Luck with it,

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 23, 2002.

I beleive the charges are:

1. Causing unessesary (sp) pain and suffering to a canine.

2. Not providing adequet care for said canine.

I'm not sure if that was the exact wordind because her lawyer has the papers that were given to her with the charges. Another thing I do not understand is how can they charge her for #2 when the dog was not in her care when it was found to be suffering. I will check the criminal code of Canada and get back to you on the charges.

-- Spring Peterson (jerk@ihorizions.net), February 24, 2002.

The charges are:

Under The Crininal Code of Canada

Cruelty to Animals

Section 446 (1) (a)

Wilfully causes or, being the owner, wilfully permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or a bird.

Section 446 (1) (c)

Being the owner or the person having the custody or control of a domestic animal or a bird or an animal or bird wild by nature that is in captivity, abandons it in distress or wilfully neglects or fails to provide suitable and adequate food, water, shelter and care for it.

-- Spring Peterson (jerk@ihorizions.net), February 24, 2002.

So which part of the law(s) state that, '...The use of an elstrator device, rubber ring, rubber band device or the appiction of such a device, with or with out pain control medication, for the propose of castration, or sterliztion of a male dog [or other animal], shall be unlawful, by anyone other than a licensed veterinarian...' Or any words to that effect,

The law(s) listed here would apply if the dog was allowed to chew on itself, left unsupervised and injured itself, was injured by another animal, or if infection was untreated.

None of the wording makes banding against the law. The level of discomfort demonstrated, by a dog that is properly cared for when banded, is minor, it does not hurt any where near as much as labor and birth, or as some one pointed out recently, the pain that females go through with a surgical spay, [I've had my tubes tied, the anesthesia for the surgery does not last through out the healing process and even with pain pills, it still hurt, ALOT], so I don't believe banding causes "unnecessary pain and suffering"

with the possible exception of those people who have done it and not provided the care needed, and their dog chewed itself into a hospital bill.

If her lawyer is any good, every thing should be fine for your mom.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 24, 2002.

After reading your last two posts, Spring, I agree that your mom should be fine. Is there anywhere else in the statutes (laws) that makes a distinction between a dog and other animals? If not, then I don't see how they can prosecute her successfully for doing to a dog something that's perfectly legal to do to a calf or a goat ~ they're all animals. From what you said she did afterwards, it sure sounds like she provided adequate (and very good) care for the dog. Good luck!

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), February 25, 2002.

Thank you for all your suggestions and info. The next court date is in September 2002. It is a pre trial. I will keep you informed as to what I find out.

-- Spring (jerk@ihorizions.net), February 28, 2002.