I recently responded to two "For Sale" notices on this site. One was from Mr. Jack Flesher and the other was from someone who is not a contributor to this site.

I had no problem dealing with Mr. Flesher, since he is a known entity on this site and therefore the element of trust is there when doing a financial transaction. No transaction happened but that is besides the point. (Mike Dixon got the lens!)

I got involved with the other person who was selling a Leica Screw Mount camera, and upon investigation found out that he wasn't a regular on this site, and so I became hesitant, on general principles. I have been burned in the past in financial dealings. (He lives in California and I'm in New Jersey.) I'm sure this person is a honorable man, but I don't have a way of ensuring that I won't get ripped off, since there is a non-zero possibility of this happening.

My question is: Do any of you buy from strangers who post their For Sale messages on this site? And if so, how do you go about guaranteeing that neither party gets conned.

I've never used eBay or PayPal, so any hints would be helpful. Are traditional routes the only way to do this?

Is there a cost free (no middle man) way of doing this?

Thanks,

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 22, 2002

Answers

I think paypal.com has ways of suspending the payee from transferring funds that you pay to the seller's account to his bank account. In other words, maybe there's room for paypal.com to save you from a crook. Check out more info at paypal.com. As I have used them when selling items, but never had complaints, they seem pretty organized.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

Also check out whatever eEscrow is calling themselves these days. I've never needed to use them, but they seem like a good idea.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), February 22, 2002.

Oh crap, that's supposed to be iEscrow, www.iescrow.com

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), February 22, 2002.

Be careful -

I lost $975 on Ebay 18months ago. Jim Riddel - Haymaker30@aol.com - cashed my cashiers check but has yet to send the merchandise or a refund. I've been through Ebay (pointless), the Klamath Falls Sheriff (said, "You've been screwed" - his words), the Us Postal Service since the check went through the mail, and the Internet Fraud section of the FBI. I've filled out a fair amount of paperwork and internet forms but still nothing.

Id suggest that there seems little possibility that you can REALLY do much if you get hosed.

Ebay's response was most interesting. They told me that they wouldn't ban Mr. Riddel since he hadn't set a "pattern" of such activity. I said, "So if I murder my brother, you're saying the police won't arrest me if it was my first murder?" They did not care to further discuss the issue. Mr. Riddel is still buying and selling...

Again - Be Careful!!

-- MikeP (mike996@optonline.net), February 22, 2002.

mike,

try the postmaster general (post office or internet). They helped when I bought a new bike mail-order, and the vendor sent me a repainted (used?) bike.

-- chris chen (chrischen@msn.com), February 22, 2002.

I too have been burned, but mostly have had great results. I think a thread where we can post the good dealing people,. This way all would have a place to check first before sending money 4 thousand miles away. I will start here with three recent dealing 1) Stacy Sur, Hawaii. wonderful to deal with , honorable and trustworthy. purchased an M2 and when i complained about some items not being as described she sent me money back. 2) Don Whipple: good to deal with, quik accurate trustworthy. 3) Court Kizer, San Diego : a crook by any meaning of the word. beat me for a 24mm Nikkor.

-- mike (thearea19@aol.com), February 22, 2002.

I would ask if the person has any references at other sites - like ebay or photo.net "user recommendation" section... if they sound good you will probably be okay. if nothing, then i would demand to get their home phone, home address and work phone and work address... then call their work and talk to somebody other then them - i.e. the front desk - and see if that person actaully works there... if it is any larger sized company they will certainly have records of the person... and if it is a larger sized company you will know which police entity to call in order to track down this person, and where to send them. If it is a "i am self employed person" then you may be SOL in finding them, especially if they tell you to send payment to a post office box. Another way of doing it is COD (check on delivery)... it costs about 8 bucks, but includes mailing your payment back to you. FedEx will not deliver the package without getting a certified check (if you tell them it needs to be certified)... this would also work and isn't too expensive.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

Vikram- Remember the old Latin saying: "Caveat emptor." EBay is a perfect example and I will never buy anything from this fraudster's paradise. The only exception would be books or other objects that cannot be damaged.

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), February 22, 2002.

i bought a m-rokkor through a post on this site, though coincidally i was in New York, so we did the deal in person. i never had a bad experience buying something from the net. but beware, just because someone is posting on a site like this doesn't mean you could track them down.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

just found this (for those speaking german):

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzkultur/0,1518,183699,00.html

it is about a recent ebay spam where someone cashed in on about $100.000 selling china figures. it says that ebay is not offering any proper security.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

Unless you are: a. A very trusting person and/or b. A very wealthy person you should never buy online from anyone who doesn't have excellent independent references. I have never been burned as a buyer or a seller, but I have never done a transacton with anyone who did not have a lot of completely positive feedback on ebay and/or photo.net. If you must buy from a newcomer then I would use one of the online escrow services. These cost approx. 3% of the sale cost and assure both you and the seller that each will receive what they expect. Last rule of thumb, if you truly can't afford to lose the money (or you won't be able to eat or pay rent) then you should not be engaged in transactions with this degree of risk.

-- Steve Rosenblum (stevierose@yahoo.com), February 22, 2002.

Most informative, thanks everyone. And just when I was thinking of shopping on Ebay!

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), February 22, 2002.

Thank you everyone for your sobering views.

Every time I lock my front door, or set the alarm on my car, or sign a legal document in front of a lawyer, I wonder if there will ever come a day when the world will have no need for locks, laws, armed forces or police. Where honesty and integrity will be the norm.

I sometimes wonder why people choose to be evil or dishonest. It seems as if few institutions are immune from this. At least taking pictures brings joy into people's lives.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 22, 2002.

I'm not sure you should come away with such a negative view. I have been involved in around 50 online transactions without a single negative experience. I have had many very positive experiences, in fact, and overall have found reason to have faith in the human race. You just need to be CAREFUL when buying expensive things online from people that you don't know. No different, really, than buying a used item from the classifieds.

-- Steve Rosenblum (stevierose@yahoo.com), February 23, 2002.

Vikram:

I have purchased on line several times, 8 I believe. One time, I purchased from a first time seller. Buyer beware. Ebay couldn't or wouldn't do anything. In general, I would rather purchase from someone in Germany than the USA. You might consider having them take the equipment to a third party for an assessment, but I do not know if you would have any success with this technique. You have to willing and/or able to lose the funds. Use your "street smarts" and interpret how they respond to your e-mails, and the timeliness of the response.

Good Luck.

-- Mark A. Johnson (logical1@catholic.org), February 23, 2002.

I have personally conducted over 300 transactions on ebay with zero problems - it seems others have not been so lucky.

It is an incredible way to reach millions of potential customers and I would not hesitate to recommend it - just check the feedback and take care!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), February 23, 2002.

"I'm sure this person is a honorable man, but I don't have a way of ensuring that I won't get ripped off, since there is a non-zero possibility of this happening"

You are NOT sure and that is why you are hesitant. No one can reassure you of something not within their control, and I too debate at times when wanting to purchase, especially from the US, seeing all the stock is their and there is not much of anything good here in Oz. Make an executive decision based on thorough investigation of each individual. Getting burnt is part of life, and sometimes unavoidable in uncontrolable situations. Good luck

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

Hello Vikram. In my experience when purchasing at arms length,unless the goods are new and under valid warranty,there is always an element of risk or luck.A vendor's good reputation is most important.If purchasing a screw mount or indeed a more recent bayonet mount body you should factor in an overhaul cost.Alfred Eisenstaedt has written before Ebay was even conceived,that he would never purchase equipment,without trial or return privileges.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

"You are NOT sure and that is why you are hesitant." -- Kristian

You're right. I should have said, "I ASSUME he's honorable" rather than I KNOW. In some societies one assumes that the other party is a crook. Why else would we have laws. Ronald Reagan said it best: "Trust but verify."

FYI, I was going to buy a mint Leica IIIg. I feel bad walking away from this opportunity. This camera is a rarity, and is usable.

"Getting burnt is part of life, and sometimes unavoidable in uncontrolable situations. Good luck."

Isn't it sad that life has to be this way. There is something wrong with society if we have to operate this way on a regular basis. What has our civilization achieved, beyond material comforts (and Leica glass)? Below the surface some of us are no better than savages.

"In my experience when purchasing at arms length,unless the goods are new and under valid warranty,there is always an element of risk or luck."

"Alfred Eisenstaedt has written before Ebay was even conceived,that he would never purchase equipment,without trial or return privileges." -- Sheridan Zantis

Thanks for this valuable advice.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 23, 2002.

If you receive a COD package from the US Postal Service, you are *not* allowed to open and inspect it before signing for it. Once you sign for it, you have it! If you are not happy with it, it is between you and the seller. I doubt FedEX or UPS allow inspection prior to acceptance.

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

The problem with the whole "feedback" thing is that if you are trying to deal with someone who is a photographer, they are unlikely to have much, if any, "feedback." I always insist on a daytime phone number and make personal contact before committing to purchase. I haven't done that much since I tend to buy just what I need, and sell what I no longer use, so we're talking maybe 10 transactions, but I have never had a problem.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 23, 2002.

I have had mostly positive experience with people on ebay. I feel most people are honest, but I would not deal with anyone who has negative feedback. Poon is great. I found him on ebay. He is a Hong Kong dealer. Ebay name is etefore. I deal with him without ebay now. If I find people on this site, they always seem to have positve ebay feedback also. I am trustworthy, and feel the majority of people who use this forum are also trustworthy.

-- John Abela (jamriman@yahoo.com), February 24, 2002.

Also would like to mention Tom Booker, ebay name nicegoods, nice guy very trustworthy.

-- John Abela (jamriman@yahoo.com), February 24, 2002.