Hi! I have lazy trolls. One is a 11 year old and is getting lazier by the day. She is only required to do the dishes everyday. I have a 15 year old boy who does all the bird and sometimes cattle chores and I don't get a lick of trouble out of him,except using tools and not putting them away,but my daughter is very lazy. She wants to be in Girl Scouts and thinks it is o.k. for me to run her,but when it comes to resposibility she doesn't feel she is accountable for anything.She is very disrespectful at this point... of not feeling she has to do anything. I am so tired of harping....preaching...nagging...reasoning.I have always had trouble with our kids stealing our things and not having any respect for others property. The boys will use Dad's tools and leave them in the dirt, where they get done and my daughter finds nothing wrong with taking earrings out of my drawer and never returning them. They never ask to borrow anything...they just do as they please. I have also tried to explain the implications of stealing others property,have tried to explain everyone must do their share and try to get help in the garden since they all eat like horses. Help I am so frustrated trying what doesn't work. I've even stopped all eating out and running to their social activities to no avail.

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 23, 2002

Answers

Oh and we've done the allowance thing!

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 23, 2002.

Try the "lockdown/earned merit" approach . Lock interior doors to your private spaces and lock the food up too. Establish a basic food allowance for sustainence and any extra is credited to the yield merits they have accrued. This way , they are fed , but if they want more, they earn it with chore merits. Don't worry if they don't like you enjoying the fruits of your merit points, thats incentive for them to do more. As they get to an age to work part time jobs, charge them room and board on a scale comparable to what they earn. Basically, turn homelife into a model of real life. You may even be able to get rid of the interior locks in a year or so. I saw this done with four brothers and after two years of this three of them became successful, the fourth joined the Army.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), February 23, 2002.

Put a lock on your bedroom door to keep your belongings safe; hire a kid that likes to work in the garden who is not in your kids circle of friends, praise the kid who does the work, and at supper time tell them to fend for themselves. It should not take more than 3 to 5 times of this senarico before your kids come with "we need to talk" attitudes. Jealousey is a firm persistant teacher.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), February 23, 2002.

We went through many of your same problems...don't give up. I had to resort to locking up my tools so that the kids had to "check them out and return them", just like a lending library. I hated to do it, but I NEED my tools. I also got tired of buying them all their own tools, they treated them no better than my own. Now that they are a bit older and can find occasional work of their own, they have to acquire their own tools and I notice that they do take way better care of them now that they realize the value of the darn things and how much easier it is to use a saw/hammer whatever that is not an inch deep in rust and sharp.

We also had problems with monetary theft, although it was pretty easy to monitor since we we are usually with them when in a store. If they all of a sudden have money to buy gum with we can start the third degree.

I still resent that I can't trust my own children and I don't know exactly what we did wrong, although I have to say that as they've gotten older they have become more responsible.

My only advice is don't give up, and don't be afraid to lock things up, including your money. You might also shake your head and sigh loudly, each time you have to unlock things and remind them what a shame it is that you are forced to protect your stuff from your own children.

-- Tis I (really_tis_i@yahoo.com), February 23, 2002.

Take away everything that is not a neccessity. No T.V., phone, computer,radio, etc. Dont take them anywhere. You are the ones paying the bills. Theft is theft weather it is from family or not. Taking things that does not belong to you is a crime. Period. I might sound harsh but if you allow this in your own home and not take severe action now what else will they do? It sounds like they dont respect you. BEING A PARENT DOESNT MEAN THEY HAVE TO LIKE YOU> but they must obey the rules set forth in your home.

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), February 23, 2002.

woodshed meeting? switch,, strap ,,,,

-- sopal (sopal@net-port.com), February 23, 2002.

I'm with Tracy. Hit them where it hurts! No TV. That's where they learn these things,and it's going to get the most attention from them if you remove it. And no going over to friend's houses, either, where they can get access. All of that and some serious sit down talks will help a lot.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), February 23, 2002.

We just had this conversation with our 17 year old daughter, who likes to debate the issue of what she should and shouldn't be responsible for doing. We bought her a car, pay for the insurance (like we did for our oldest until she was 18), pay for her cell phone (used to pay for her gas and pager). She had a part time job for awhile and took over paying for her gas and any minutes she was over on her cell phone plan (which was every month.) Then she quit her job. Didn't like the new management. Has filled out a few applications here and there (or so she says), but STILL no job (since before Christmas).

We are struggling financially ourselves to keep the rent paid and food on the table, but yet we still pay her car insurance and cell phone bill every month. We lowered her monthly plan for her cell phone though after her bill came it at $170.00 one month and we had to pay it! I made her work for me at my office for a week to pay us back for that one though. We told her that the cell phone will be used to contact ONLY my husband and myself (we have detailed billing so we know when she makes a call and to whom.) We got the cell phone after our oldest got a flat tire late one night out on the highway coming home from work by herself. It was quite a distance for her to walk to get to a pay phone and not safe at all. Fortunately a nice man and woman showed up and helped her. We didn't want to take any more chances like that. Not in the area WE live in. But still the necessity of having a cell phone for emergencies became a new toy for her. We told her from the beginning that we will pay for a basic, no frills, minimum minutes plan and SHE had to pay for anything over that price.

It seems like a viscious cycle. We went through the same thing (but worse) with our oldest daughter who is now 20 and lives out on her own. At least the oldest knows now what it takes to keep the bills paid, your own place clean, your own car maintained etc. It takes work and discipline.

All we ask of them is to do a few household chores everyday and get good grades in school. Unbelivable that they have this "you owe me" kind of attitude. It has caused plenty of friction in our household I can tell you that. I will be watching this post VERY closely and more than likely, implementing some of the advice suggested by everyone here. We are trying not to make the same mistakes with each child and have changed some things we did/allowed with our first so the second doesn't follow the same pattern, but it is a constant vigil I can tell you that. Good luck and keep us posted as to what you try and what works.

Blessings,

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), February 23, 2002.

One other thing that works but you have to do it. If thier stuff is laying all over the house and they wont clean up after themselves. BURN IT. Believe me. it will only take a couple times to get the point across.

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), February 23, 2002.

I don't own any kids, so I am by no means an expert, but my experience has been that if you and your husband clearly state your expectations, and then take action to ensure that your expectations are met, your kids may well surprise you and rise to the occassion. I have 2 nephews who used to live with me. Their father is a very lazy, self indulgent, undisciplined liar (can you tell I don't care much for him, LOL?). The kids, however, are wonderful- not sure how that happened, but they have been influenced by other family members who have had a hand in their raising as well. The oldest boy (12 1/2) is great, but does tend to get a bit lazy if he is allowed, which he is at his dad's house. At my house, however, he understands that he is required to pitch in, and he will do it, but I often have to remind him to make his bed, pick up clothes, towels, etc. I even have to remember to check the bed after he makes it because sometimes he cheats and just throws the bedspread over unmade-up sheets. He is a real little scamp, but I don't have to get mad or nag him- as soon as I tell him, he knows he is busted and he'll just grin at me and then go do whatever he should have done in the first place. I think it is his way of testing to see what he can get away with. When he lived here full time he never pulled any of that nonsense because it was reinforced daily. Now he just visits occassionally so the rules need to be reinforced moe often. Now, IF his dad would do the same thing at home, the boy would be less likely to try to get away with things, but because there is so much inconsistency he constantly tries to. The younger boy (10) will take things at his house that don't belong to him, but his deal is that he is a wide-open, generous kid who would give away the shirt on his back, so he doesn't completely understand that everyone else does not always feel so generous with their belongings, LOL. At my house, however, the rule is that NOTHING is to be touched without permission if it does not belong to you, and both kids respect that rule. Frequently I will bring home souveniers from shows that I work on, things that the kids see and would like to have. They will always come to me and ask if they can have it. Sometimes I say yes and give it to them; sometimes I tell them that they can "earn" the item in question by doing some extra chore; and sometimes I say no just because I don't want them to think that anything they want can be had for the asking. So, I think, the key is to clearly communicate what is expected; be consistent in enforcing proper behavior; remember to teach by example- don't be a hypocrite!; and remember that respect works both ways- you want them to respect you, so make sure you respect them. Around here we all respect each other and that helps a lot. Unfortunately, I also think it is easier to raise a kid "right" in the first place than it is to "fix" one that has managed to slide by without acting right. In your case I think you and your husband might just have to sit your kids down and explain that you are not satisfied with their behavior and set some hard, solid rules. Explain that there are going to be changes in the household, explain what they are, abd then be consistent in enforcing the rules. Kids are smart, and once they realize that you mean business, chances are that they will fall in line, though yours will likely continue to "test" you for awhile since they have already learned that they can get over on you. Also, don't forget to praise them and reward them for correct behavior- this is just as important as punishing bad behavior. In the interim you may have to do as others have already suggested- lock things up so that they cannot get at them. If they want to "borrow" something, give them the opportunity to do so, but be prepared to ride herd on them to get the item back- make sure they understand it is on loan only. Remember too that the less you ask of them the less they will extend themselves- so, raise the bar and don't let them get away with shirking. They might surprise you after awhile.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), February 23, 2002.

Hi, Carla, I never had the stealing problem, but my kids knew that before any extracurricular activities came chores, if chores weren't done, no extras, no exceptions. I never gave them an allowance for chores, but they could earn money by doing extra jobs. If there was a problem, first thing to go was TV and phone privileges. They knew I meant what I said, I always carried through my threats. If I had to pick up their stuff, it went into a trash bag which could be redeemed within a week if certain criteria were met. If not redeemed, it went out with the regular trash. I always followed through, even though it was difficult sometimes. As they got old enough to drive, they had to get a job and pay insurance and gas, or they didn't drive. I bought their first car (all three were older cars not great on looks, but ran good) but they were responsible for the maintenance as well, if it was big dollar, I split the cost with them. Eventually they all got newer cars that they pay for themselves, and still pay their own gas and insurance, but I pay their college expenses. When I bought clothes and necessities, they had to wear what I bought, if they wanted brand name so-and-so they paid for it themselves. Right now, they are really good responsible students, and I couldn't be prouder, it paid off!! Sometimes it was tough, and sometimes they hated me, but oh well! Perserverance!!

-- Gina NM (inhock@pvtnetworks.net), February 23, 2002.

Thanks for all the great responses! How many of these tricks truly work and which works best? I do not act as their friend, but as their parent. I try not to be a control freak, yet

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 23, 2002.

Hi, I had the same problems with my kids. Seemed like I spent my entire day screeching at them and never had anything to show for it except headaches.

Then, my DH went on a trip for a week and a half. Guess what? The boys were PERFECT!!! They cleaned, they helped, they didn't fight, they obeyed, we all got along, they even did half the cooking for the family- the oldest is eight. I was amazed. We had a great time. The scholwork got done with no fussing (homeschooled). It was as if I suddenly realized what great kids I had.

Then Dad came back, and now it is back to the same old stuff again, excpet for one difference. I now know that they have the potential to be really great kids, and that they want to be. Something is getting in the way, it must be a power struggle or other conflict with the man of the house. Believe me, we tried everything before- spanking, yelling, cutting them down, time outs, constant survellience (it was never constant enough...), getting rid of every toy they wouldn't pick up. We were severe. And it never seemd to phase them; just made them unhappy.

So I would say that the trouble is not necessarily with your children. Pardon me for saying so, but when I read that they are lazy trolls, I knew that whatever was going on wasn't all their fault.. Children need respect just as much as adults, and maybe more, because they are still forging thier identities. YES they need boundaries and guidelines. They also need understanding and an expectation- a sincere one- that they will do the right thing, that they are good kids at heart and you love them. If you are tired of nagging and criticizing your daughter, then please stop! She will test you to see if it's going to last. Bear with that patiently. Let her learn consequences without you telling her about it and reminding her. Right now you have set yourself up as the meanie who has to make them do everything, it's not a happy place to be, I know. Simply state what you expect from them, and what the rewards and consequences will be, and enact them, both rewards and consequences. And love and spend time with them whichever they choose.

If all this fails, you could do what we did. Send one parent away for a week and see what happens, then after a month or two, let the other parent have a little vacation, and you should be able to pin down what is going on.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 23, 2002.

(oops hit the darn button) Oh well as I was saying....it does get mundane repeating day after day....I would think we would have a system already and she would have an idea of what is expected.We make the cicumstances fall back on her...ie not going to an event yet she is a smug determined little brat. I feel she picked this attitude up staying at a friend's house(if that's possible) she commented that her friend isn't required to do anything!! Needless to say I told her only because she was staying overnight. It's been three weeks and she'll go without money,she'll go without events,she'll do timeouts and it would appear that none of this effects her.

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 23, 2002.

Carla, the problem is not the kids it is you and Dad. No child just "all of a sudden starts disrespecting you", unless drugs are involved for that total change in personality, or mental illness. You have allowed a pattern of behavior, and now trying to "nip it in the bud" is going to be the hardest thing you have ever done before. The work is going to be yours to do. A family meeting with the new rules written down, a 100% meeting of the minds between you and Dad, your son, and your daughter (who does not need to hear how GOOD her brother is) perhaps some of the problem is that the only attention she gets as the younger child is when she acts up, attention is attention to kids, good or bad. After the rules have been set it will be up to you to enforce them, to watch that the tools are indeed picked up. Why isn't Dad out with them and the tools, a neat clean tool area with a peg board or something similar to put them after use, how does Dad treat the tools? Girl Scouts or something similar may be just what your daughter needs, especially if you were to get involved with her so you could have some time alone with her.

What are the concequences at your house for bad behavior? Did you spank, now once they are getting older what discipline did you switch to? The biggest problem kids come from homes with no discipline. If you choose not to spank a 2 year old you had better have another form of discipline waiting in the wings. Now as older children your discipline will be challanged, you and Dad have not figured out what to do yet, and the kids know this. They also know that they are probably not dealing with a united front! Like animals you must be smarter than them to deal with them. Life also can't be all chores and trouble. What fun things do you do as a family? We used to go swimming summers at a lake near us, it was certainly easy for me to get my 3 to help in the garden with "I can't take you to the lake until I have picked all the green beans" as older kids, I made a deal with my daughter who hated veggies, that if she picked and weeded for me, she was never again nagged for not eating her veggies, now as a young adult she is nearly a vegitarian :) My big "grounding" was "you owe me an hour" Hour's were much eaiser to do than remembering that one of the kids was grounded this weekend, which really grounded everyone! But an hour of clearing fenceline or mucking a barn, is plenty of time for anyone to think about never doing something again. And in the long run kids want to be loved and want to please you, just like the dog :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

Rebekah...thanks for your response,but they get the respect they deserve. We respect their privacy,their things and belongings,but forgive me they are lazy....there is just no other term to describe it, I mean no disrespect it's just the truth. We are not wealthy so they are not spoiled,Dad and I are hard working people so they never learned lazy from us. I truly think it is the influence she is getting from other girls at school. Our youngest is home schooled and the 15 year old boy is in public school....the boys are not the bigger problem she is. She likes Brittney Spears....hummm could that be a problem?

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 23, 2002.

Dear Carla: We have never had a problem with our children stealing as we do not have any large amounts of cash around? However, as far as lazy children, one thing that had worked for us is that every child has as many chores as he is old. I can remember when I first implemented this rule. Our oldest was 12 and next was 10. The oldest never complained but the 10 yr old said "Well, Mom where is your list of chores"? I said "You know that is a good question, why don't you guys go out and play while I make a list of chores for me." I determined right then' that I would come up with a list of 32 chores if it killed me (I was 32 at the time, 46 now) It didn't take too long to accomplish that. When I called them in I had my list all ready and showed it to them and then asked who wanted to trade??? That quietly ended the discussion. Now, mind you the first 5 are the same for everyone. 1.Brush teeth daily 2.Take shower (Tues/Thurs/Sat) 3.Pick up bedroom floor 4.Make bed 5. Take sheets off beds (Fridays) After that they become individualized and they are free to trade and barter. Once the 12yr. boy wanted some baseball cards that the 15 yr. old owned and so they struck a deal that the 12 yr. old would do 2 of the chores of the 15 yr. for 6 months. On their birthdays is when they get their new chore. I usually have several ideas and they can choose. When the 17 year old flew back East for his senior year of High School at a private academy the 15 yr. old told me "Mom, I know why you are crying.....17 chores just walked out the door." LOL!!!!!! The first time I made the list of chores choices to get us started. As far as learning respect of personal rights. I got a terrific idea from Mike and Debi Pearl of No Greater Joy. That is, that every child has a drawer that is off limits to everyone except parents. Severe consequences if violated. That way every child has more or less a safety deposit box in which to keep their most treasured items. The top drawer of each dresser is that for our children. As far as cars we let our children drive our cars. They have to help pay the gas. We have told them that we do not want them owning cars until they are 18 and if they will wait to do that we will match every dollar that they have saved toward a car up to $2,500. Our first son waited and had $5000 to put toward his first truck. Our second son waited until 4 months before he turned 18, it was summer and he had to have this car. No Bonus. The third son is 18 1/2 and still saving to claim his bonus. The older kids also have to go half on their braces (if they want or need them) Once they have jobs they have to buy their own clothes. IMHO I believe that responsibility brings self-respect.

-- Marie in Central WA (Mamafila@aol.com), February 23, 2002.

I vividly remember how I solved the problem of my son taking my things. I went into his room, picked up one of his beloved model cars and threw it against the wall. Then I turned and told him to keep his ##@#$&* hands off my stuff! Remember here, YOU are the adult, they are the children! No negotiating. It's your house so it's your way. Install locks and also rules. If the rules are broken, they get punished-that simple. You can also mention that there are doors that they can use to leave. If they are old enough to disobey you, they are old enough to get a job, find an apartment and live on their own!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

I don't think that children automatically should have a "hands off" drawer in the house, unless they have given you no reason to look. Why? You're the one who will be sued six ways from Sunday if they commit a crime while still a minor, and if they are stealing from you, they might be stealing from others as well.... Not to mention there might be smoking/drinking/drug problems that you as a parent NEED to know about.

It is your house. As far as extracurricular activities, I would explain that in order for you to be able to run her hither and yon, certain things have to be done, and if you're doing them, well, you don't have time to do other things.... Maybe reading the Charles Long book Surviving Without a Salary will help, because he involved his children in family decisions such as budgeting for vacations and so forth.

If you have a computer, change the passwords so that YOU have to log in and out before she can use it, and allow it for schoolwork only (no chatting, no recreational surfing, etc.). Explain the situation to your school counselor, and teacher, and see how the computer usage is monitored at school as well. You might also have to go so far as to take her off the school computers as well, and as someone mentioned, no visiting friends, either. Good luck.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 23, 2002.

You said your daughter needed the cell phone in case she's out late and has car trouble. If she isn't working why does she need to be out late in a car she isn't paying for? My kids were always told that as long as they lived under out roof they lived under our rules. No job, no car. Period. It didn't take long before they found a job and kept it. They were also told that if they wanted a car to drive they had to help pay for it. No they didn't get new cars, the cars were usually old and not great looking but in good running order.

Once my kids were old enough to set the table, they had chores that they knew they had to do. Anyone who didn't work didn't eat. Period. It only takes a couple of missed meals before they decide they really want to help. I won't even discuss what would have happened to a kid of mine if they'd taken money that didn't belong to them. Yes I was a tough parent and I'm glad I was. None of my kids have ever been in trouble and they have good jobs.

-- Grannytoo (jacres40@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

Wow Grannytoo, it sounds like we had the same manner of raising children!

I hope my DD, Lisa/WI, reads this and posts what her twelve-year-old daughter does for chores! And, her four-year-old has his chores to do also. I don't know if they have any incentives(allowance) or not. I do know that they are very strict with the children and I thank the Lord they are!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

Tell me, how long has your daughter been doing dishes? I did dishes for 13 years while I was growing up, and I got so sick of dishes I did as little as possible, did a poor job, put it off as long as possible, fought with my parents about how much was enough, etc. I would much rather done a different type of chore, and when I hit my teen years I tried to talk my parents into a different chore and even gave suggestions, but that was not an option. I got downright mulish about it, as I remember. Sulky, too. There was one other thing that really gave me an attitude. Whenever my mother got together with her friends, she would usually gripe about her kids sooner or later. You know, how lazy we were, how foolish, any stupid or embarassing things we might have done hey anything for a good story if we didn't want our mother talking about it to the neighbors we shouldn't have done such a stupid, or foolish, or whatever thing we had done. Trust me, her stories did NOTHING to improve my attitude! I know my mother loved me, she worked her fingers to the BONE for us, but what I really, REALLY wanted her to do was just to LIKE me, even just a little bit.

You think your daughter doesn't read this forum? Maybe so, maybe no. You HAVE, however, Just called her a smug, lazy brat and a thief, and if she hasn't heard it here, she probably heard it another time when you didn't know she was around. Trust me, THIS WILL DO HORRIBLE THINGS TO HER ATTITUDE! How about modeling the attitude you want her to have? If she doesn't pick up on it, then keep on modeling it! Drop the names! Give her a choice of chores, along with having her set a timetable to get it done, and set a penalty if she doesn't! I'm sorry, I'm not usually this blunt, and actually I have been downright rude, I don't know you OR your daughter, adolescents are often HORRIBLE to live with, but if you have an attitude with HER, you will make her behavior EVER so much worse!!!!

I am withholding my name here because I have given out this site to my family, and I REALLY don't want to get into it with them right now, this has NOT been a good month at our place, and I don't have the emotional reserves to get into it with my mother again.......

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), February 23, 2002.

OOOPS!!!!! I hit the wrong button... I guess I will just have to hope my family isn't reading this..(sigh)

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), February 23, 2002.

GT: I'm sorry, I did not make my point very clear. I meant to say that their drawers were off limits to everyone but the parents. I agree with you, that anything that a child is purposely hiding from a parent is indeed reason for red flags!!! Carla, I have found that my 15 yr. daughter will accept correction/counsel from her father much easier than from me. Has your husband worked with her at all as far as her responsibilities and her attitude? A daughter sometimes thinks the world rises and sets on her father and will be much more open to what he thinks and says. My heart is sad for what your family is going through just now.

-- Marie in Central WA (Mamafila@aol.com), February 23, 2002.

WHOA TERRI!!!! Now that I think I'll go lay down and die and cease to ask for advice from people who've been there....done that. I don't call my daughter lazy to her face, but I could use a better term. What is the politically correct term for....Unwilling to work;moving slowly;sluggish? (Webster's Dictionary) I'm not an evil mother and my daughter is not evil just the aforementioned. There is no perfect child or mother for that matter. We are all just bouncin' around trying to do the best we can. I have let her pick her chores and they usually fall by the wayside just like the dishes. By the way I can top your mother so evily making you do the dishes....my mom used to throw cold water in my face at the age of two, for crying. My sis and I had chores to do and one of them was "THE EVIL DISHES"

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 23, 2002.

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. Part of the problem with today's youth (and adults) is that schools are more concerned with hurting feelings than learning and getting the right answers as well as learning discipline. What do her other friends have for chores?

We used to hear "we love you, but not your behavior", which cushions the blow a bit but still gets the point across. Another option is to send her away to another relative she respects, who can maybe straighten her out a bit. You see this with children of divorced parents all the time. One parent (usually the prime custodian) has all the discipline problems, but you send them off to Dad or Mom for the summer, and they are all squared away to the point of even being good for two weeks or so until they get used to the old home routine again.

Marie's suggestion about Dad is great too, particularly if you're the one she sees day in and day out.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 23, 2002.

Dear Carla, I understand how to feel at least to a small degree. My daughter is almost 6 and about 2 years ago I realized I was not in control of my home and had never been. She was rude and bossy to say the least. I was embarassed my her to say the least. It took me becoming very strict and no leaway. I thruthfully think it was harder on me than it was on her. I had always allowed her to have her way. If I cooked dinner and she didn't want it, I made her something else. I was running myself ragged for an ungrateful, selfish child who would one day become a lazy,ungratful,selfish adult. It had to stop. I sat down one day with my husband and no children and made a list actions on one side and punishments on the other. I still follow them no matter what. I realize that today most parents punish their children according to what mood they are in. If they are in a great mood they let something slide and then the next day they will spank their child for the same action just because they are frustrated. My daughter had to realize that her actions caused her to he in trouble not me or the way I was feeling. And that backtalking will get her in trouble EVERYTIME not just sometimes therefore she tries less and less to act up.Like I have read in previous answers. I had to stop caring if she liked me or not I am not her friend. I cried many times after punishing her for something she did. I have even had to throw things away or make her give a toy away because she broke a favorite toy another child had. But she is almost 6 and is one of the most behaved children and so very caring. She does not expect me to wait on her hand and foot anymore because I dont. It is hard for me to make her take care of herself but she is old enough to do it. She cleans her own bathroom and bedroom I don't help. It seems to me that in trying to give our children everything that we did not have we took away something so important. Why do we feel that cell phones and cars will make them happier children and better adults as apposed to hard work and more responsibility. Our children now becoming mothers and fathers at 13,14,15 and have no idea how! Look at the way our teenagers are and tell me how cell phones and freedom to drive a car that someone else paid for,pays the Ins on and even puts gas it is helping them to become responsible adults. I know beacause I was one of those teenagers.I had my daughter at 17 and married her father at 18. I did not know how to be a mother or a wife. Why? Because my mother babied me. She cooked and cleaned for me, she washed my clothes and paid my bills. My husband taught me to wash clothes. I peomise you those of you who feel that you are doing better for your children by catering to them and allowing the "freedom" will one day be sorry for not teaching them how to be adults. I am sorry I think I'll get off my soapbox now. I just feel so strongly because had my mother been stricter and made me accountable for my actions as a child and teenager Iwould have has a lot eiser time as a young adult.

Good bless you and good luck!! Jennifer

-- Jennifer (Jenniferthf@aol.com), February 23, 2002.

Well woman you got a problem. The problem is not the children. The problem is the parents. You should have trained your children when they were still on your lap. We live in a very permissive age when parents don't have any discipline of their own. I have eight children - three daughters and five boys. All five boys are still at home and all have jobs. I never wake them for work and they are hardly ever late. My oldest son told me that in five years he was late once, and that was two minutes. It is almost too late to do anything with your children but not qquite. First of all you must be consistent. If you promise them punishment you will have to carry it out - every time. The worst thing you can do is threaten them. If you do it one more time . . . No, they have already done it one more time.

And please don't embarrass them and tell them they are brats or lazy. If you respect your children they will respect you. I spanked my children. I didn't beat them. Spanking is politically incorrect, but if you want juvenile delinquents . . . I don't even call my children kids - I call them children. They are my best friends. My boys don't run around, drink, do drugs. We do a lot of things together as family. No television. Absolutely get rid of your television if you have one, unless you want them to turn out like what they watch. God bless you as you train your children - and discipline your own life.

-- Al (mastclan@juno.com), February 23, 2002.

I've had kids taking my things and ruining them. They pay me back. They don't have lots of money, but I know what they own, and what they really like of their possessions. One child was wrecking one of my saddles. I warned him of the consequences and he continued. He subsequently purchased my wrecked saddle with his Sony playstation (I, of course, had no personal interest in the Playstation other than knowing it would definitely get his attention). Guess what? The kids leave my stuff alone. No physical violence necessary, just a bit of cleverness and consistency.

-- Laura Rae Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), February 23, 2002.

Carla, I have thought about it long and hard, and I believe I owe you an apology for snapping at you in print. You and your children really are having difficulties, and you were asking for help about it. caring parents do.

Please, don't stop seeking: just don't get caught complaining where it might get back to your daughter by friends, neighbors, her friends, your E-mail that might get read by the children because it's right there on the computer, use an E-mail adress no one who knows you will recognize, and so forth. My mother NEVER knew that I grew up hearing her laugh at me, she just never realized how small a world it was.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), February 24, 2002.

I first saw this post yesterday, and I've spent the past 24 hours thinking about it. The subject is so painful to me that I almost couldn't respond! Carla, my heart goes out to you. Wherever you may be lacking as a parent, in skills or consistency or whatever, the bottom line is that some kids are just lazy, obnoxious, ungrateful, or what-have-you. And believe me, I know it hurts to say those kind of words about your very own kid. You never thought you'd be the type of parent that would think to yourself "I hate these kids, I absolutely hate them." To even think it makes you feel like they'd all be better off if CPS just came and got 'em! (Unfortunately, CPS won't come pick your children up just because you ask them to. You have to HURT the kid first, THEN they'll pick 'em up, I guess). Anyway, the point I want to make is the opposite of most of the folks who have posted here. Some kids are just plain jerks, and I know because I have one. My 13 yr. old has been in trouble since age 9, and I mean everything from a smart-mouth to theft and vandalism. He's incredibly difficult to live with because of his total lack of respect for other people's feelings, possessions, goals, etc. He is selfish and deceptive and has no guilt or remorse for anything. He has done damage to the neighbor's property on both sides of us, has been expelled from school for theft, has been in juvenile detention, and has been in a kids' psych ward. Needless to say, he has also been counselled & medicated most of the time, too. Now, trust me, I feel INCREDIBLE guilt over the problems this child has. My husband and I continually rack our brains for new methods of coping with this boy, hoping to salvage some of the good that remains in him. We have been counselled to death ourselves. We have tried ignoring the behavior, and we've tried nailing him for every single thing he does wrong. And all options in between. So far, nothing works for very long. We have almost resigned ourselves to the likelihood that this child may very well end up in jail or prison before he figures it out, and there's not a lot we can do stop him. We WOULD feel like complete failures as parents, except that we have another son, age 11, who is NORMAL. He is mouthy and sneaky, but that's the worst that could be said of him. If not for this boy, who is being raised the same as the troubled one, we would feel like this situation WAS entirely due to our poor parenting. But the truth is that, depsite whatever failings we have as parents, sometimes the fault really is the kids'. They are all individuals, with their own personality traits and faults and flaws, some minor & some very serious. We are only parents, not God Almighty Himself, and the truth is that there ARE limits to how much we can control and influence our kids. You folks out there who raised good kids who became good adults; I have one thing to say: Be GRATEFUL, NOT SMUG. You certainly had a lot to do with how those kids turned out, but luck and chance also played a big part. Given another set of kids way back when, you, too, may have been climbing the walls trying to figure out where you went wrong. I know people who were raised by drunks and molesters, who somehow grew up decent. And I know of others who were raised in normal loving families, who've had difficulties from day one. Parenting skill is only one of the many factors that determine how kids act!

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), February 24, 2002.

my little speach.".....and this little piece of land is MY Country, and it is not a Democrocy it is a Dictatorship, and I am the DICtator. Everything is done MY way and if you don't like it you can find another place to live that is safe and warm and where you are well cared for." My 15 yr old son stole $40 dollars from me and I had him arrested. I spoke to the judge before the court appearence and made sure that the courts DIDN'T go easy on him as a first time, youthful offender. He was ordered to work as a janitor at the court house to pay me back, and as bonus got a first hand look at what happens to people who break the law, he came home every week with a different horror story. End of problem. He'll be 19 in a few weeks, he is doing well in school, has a part time job and helps with chores as well as maintaining my old car. Tough love, works. Good luck to all of you - I know how you can love them with all of your heart but not like them very much, how you would do anything to protect them and want to strangle them at the same time.

-- Kathy (catfish201@hotmail.com), February 24, 2002.

You're getting a lot of good advice here. I have only one thing to add: Get the book "Teaching Your Children Values" by Linda and Richard Eyre (parents of 9 children) and have both you and your husband read it. I think if you can follow what they're teaching in this book, it will definitely help your family. I also know personally from being brought up in a family of 6 children that having privileges taken away and having to EARN them back was by far the MOST effective way to get our attention. It was really tough on my Mom when 2 or 3 of us were "grounded" at the same time and we absolutely hated it and thought they were the "meanest" parents in the whole world, but I'm sure we all turned out better for it. Good Luck and let us know how things turn out in a month or so. Maybe you should show the children the responses to this post and see what they think? They may realize how easy they've got it right now and how tough life can be elsewhere.

-- rose marie wild (wintersongfarm@yahoo.com), February 24, 2002.

Carla, so far you have said nothing about Dad excpet for his tools. It would help to know what his relationship with the kids is like, particularly between him and the daughter.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 24, 2002.

Carla, you have my deepest sympathy for your situation. I have three children, and the oldest has always been a challenge for me and my husband to raise. The other two have been a delight from the beginning. Yes, we made mistakes as parents, but I also know that each child comes "pre-wired" a certain way from the Creator, for a reason. If I hadn't had my difficult eldest child, I would be an arrogant know-it-all because my other two children are model children. So, I have learned humility and the necessity of prayer because of my oldest child.

I recommend reading the classic "Dare to Discipline" by Dr. James Dobson. It has much good advice for parents. Just don't give up on your children. God certainly hasn't. They are masterpieces in progress. Best regards...

-- Liz Rhein (merhein@shentel.net), February 24, 2002.

Carla, Good books: Shepherding a Child's Heart, by Ted Tripp. Dare to Discipline, Dobson.

There is also a parenting course called Growing Kids God's Way. I've heard really good things about it.

Each of my three children are different and respond to different modes of discipline.

Things that work here: fines for things not cared for properly. If there is no money for fines then they lose something else meaningful.

Consistency is key.

Mine all have chores to do. Most chores are done first thing in the morning. No breakfast until chores are done. Often on Sundays, I will do the dishes and relieve the one whose chore it is.

It is explained that we all live in this house and must all do our part to make it livable. We homeschool and I cannot physically DO everything.

There must be appropriate consequences and rewards. If something is not done as it should be...do not do it for the person and do not fix the problem made because something wasn't done. Example: if you require that all dirty clothes be placed in the hamper do not go to a bedroom to collect the dirty clothes. If they don't make it to the hamper, they don't get washed.

We had a problem with too many dishes being used and not washed on a daily basis. I dealt with it by removing all but the barest essential dishes and cups. We ran out of clean dishes faster and they had to be washed in order to be used.

You have not mentioned whether or not you are Christians. Either way Scripture has some very wise things to say about what to do with lazy people. It would work with Social Services if they cared to be Bibilical. Scripture says "He who will not work, shall not eat." The idea is that the gov't should not support people who will not work. The family is a government ordained by God. His rules for living work well in both realms.

As for theft and restitution. Scripture speaks to that as well. Make the offender pay it back plus some.

I had to laugh at the one suggestion of having the same number of chores as of years old. The part about 17 chores leaving is funny but really true. My children are by no means perfect, we struggle with different character faults, but I will really miss how much they help around here when they are gone. Perhaps yours need to feel that what is done is vital and necessary.

The problem of taking things without asking doesn't usually pop up without provocation. It is a rule established when they are little that they do not take things without asking. Locking up your things might work but I suspect that it will encourage someone to find a way around the lock. It doesn't address the heart problem of not respecting other peoples things.

One time, one of mine had messed with something of mine and had destroyed it. When I discovered it, I went to the treasured construction of Legos and destroyed it. My point was made and taken.

You've asked for help and gotten lots of advice. Some blunt, some gentle. Hope you find what works.

-- LBD, in MD (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), February 24, 2002.

Terri you are foregiven! Now can we forgive our mothers? I bet everyone has an evil mother story or two. I was raised insanely literally, but I vow to God it will not continue into the next generation! God Bless!

-- Carla (herbs@computer-concepts.com), February 24, 2002.

Honestly, we always adhered to the swat on the butts, and FIRMLY, mentality when young for willful disobedience and non-compliance.

1) QUIT BEING A MOM. I do this sometimes. i cook a fabulous meal for me and my husband. Kids are on their own. I refuse to do ANYTHING as a mom. So, depending upon how severe it is, don't shop for them, don't provide them food, etc. It is interesting how quickly they learn the importance of everyone pitchingin.

2) two summers ago, kids were 7 and 9, we went to weed the horribly overgrown strawberries together because they hadn't kept up on it. It could have been done in an hour or a bit more. After 1/2 hour, I had done three rows. Them? Zip. Nothing. This was 10 am. What did I do? Well, I fed them lunch, I pleaded, I yelled. I told them that dinner would be ready in 1 hour and that if they weren't done I would spank them both with a wooden spoon and they would have no dinner (and this was at 5pm). I did it. And told them they would not enter the door until the job was done, even if this meant they would sleep outside all night. Please understand, they were just DEFYING me because for some insane reason they thought I (who NEVER back down) would really back down on this one. I didn't. They finished the weeding with flashlights and a lantern at 10pm (and this is NOT a big patch). They were out there 12 HOURS almost non-stop just to try and beat me on this....on a small job. They learned a lot. They came in crying and told me they were sorry, had done a bad thing. They actually apologized, told me they loved me, and asked if we could cuddle. We talked, while we cuddled, about their behavior. And they told me that they just didn't think they should have to do it, and they figured I would eventually let them in and drop it so they wouldn't have to. Which is weird, because they don't have a precedent for this assumption. I am not like that!

3) i don't feed them until chores are done with the animals. I say the animals count on them for feed, they count on me for feed, and i will feed after they feed....

4) i have a chore list. They do get allowance, which is NOT payment for chores. However, if they DON'T do what they are supposed to do, I deduct from it. They don't deserve some spending money.

5) New one: I MAKE THEM WRITE. 50 times, 100 times. "I will not lie" or "I will show my brother the love I feel".

6) Okay, another new one. Somehow I have managed to tap into the drama queen, and instead of yelling twice in the last year I have MADE myself start quietly crying instead of yelling. This cut them to the quick. They saw how it hurt me. I don't know...my kids talk back, but not much. They learned this wasn't acceptable years ago.

-- marcee (thathope@mwt.net), February 24, 2002.

Try the book, "Kids Are WOrth It".

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), February 24, 2002.

It can get worse! my girlfriend's little girl decided to walk out of school when she was 16 because the law said she could! We could not keep her at home becase the law said so. So she left,went to Mass. and got her GED!!!! 4 months before she was to gradguate! This seems like double education tax!!! Now they are going to train her for "something" to enter the real world. Is that not what the school was to do??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

-- william Henry Szall (billisaszall@earthlink.net), February 26, 2002.

i agree totally with the ones that said "no work, no eat." my 2 oldest know if the animals aren't cared for, they don't eat. last summer they "forgot" to water the rabbits. the bunnies died. i had the kids throw the bunnies to the hogs. bunnies have been with water ever since. they no longer argue (much) about outside animal chores. dishes-if they aren't done right, (the oldest 2 take turns) they re do them and if they still aren't done, they eat on the dirty dishes (gross, yes, but...) i no longer have a problem there. rooms- took toys, worked for a while, will do it again this weekend. all toys not put up neatly disappear permanently. even the 4 yr old must put away her own laundry-they 3 oldest sort and the oldest can run the machine. they youngest (21mo) will put his own toys up and knows where his shoes and boots go. many times my children have said " you're mean i wish so and so was my mom she's much nicer than you" my reply "she's not raising you, i am. deal with it." if they don't eat what i cook, they go to bed hungry. they don't take our stuff- never have had a problem with it-but they do invade our privacy in the bathroom. i've slammed the door in their face-they are learning. oldest has called me evil for coming down hard on her, but everyone who sees my kids (teachers, sunday school, church) always tells me how great they are and what a pleasure they are. they aren't always at home, but they are kids. daughters listen better to dad, sons to me. try having dad deal with her. Kevin Leman's "making children mind without losing yours" is another book with some really good stuff. Pray.

-- laura (okgoatgal@hotmail.com), March 28, 2002.