You have the opportunity and change any one aspect of the unwritten social norms that govern the relationships between men and women. What do you change?

Do women make the first move in your world? Is there always sex on the first date? Do you have to date for two years before marriage, or do you have to get married after six months? Or what?

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

Answers

There's no more double standard, when it comes to sex. Men's behavior and women's behavior is judged equally.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

I would change the 'women must eat like little birds on dinner dates' rule, so that from now on, if a woman orders a salad while on a dinner date, the waiter will forced by law to come up behind her and slap her in the back of the head until she orders some real food.

Or if that got too violent, I would like to see mandatory marriage tattoos so that creepy married types couldn't just take their rings off in bars and hit on single people who deserve better. And maybe the "Anniversary Proposal Rule" - on the first year anniversary of the first time you slept with her, you must either pony up a ring an a proposal, or give her the option of cutting you loose. None of this 'I don't know if I am ready to make a commitment so stick around a few more years and lets see' crap.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

I'm with Hannah.

Also, neither gender is allowed to get away with saying, "I'll call you," and then not calling.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

Also, neither gender is allowed to get away with saying, "I'll call you," and then not calling.

See, I would modify things to make it so that if "I'll call you" is said at the end of an intimacy-free first date and no call actually takes place, the spurned partner should not be permitted to make a federal case out of it. Instead, the phrase should be translated as "I had a nice time" with no implied promise of a future date.

After the first date, all bets are off.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

As a corollary to all the phone stuff, can we jettison the whole bogus waiting period before calling someone you like? When I think of the contortions of logic I subjected myself and my friends to during periods of pre-getting together with some ultimately unworthy boy, I think, that the time could have been so much better spent getting a pedicure or ridding the world of all known diseases or something. A pox on the industry standards!

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

There's no more double standard, when it comes to sex. Men's behavior and women's behavior is judged equally.

By whom?

I think in a perfect world that's true, but I know too many women who are treated like sluts and/or prudes for displaying attitudes about sex that men can easily get away with.

I've love to live in that society, but we're not there yet.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

Omar, I know we're not there yet- that's the change I would make in society, if I could.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

Instead, the phrase should be translated as "I had a nice time" with no implied promise of a future date.

Freak, it'd be easier just to say "I had a nice time."

I'd tell you which rule I'd change, but my mother reads the forum sometimes.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

All you over-protective parents- Lighten the hell up! Who decided a girl has to be 18 before she can legally date someone over that age? In my world, when a young woman reaches a certain point of physical and emotional maturity she is considered "dateable." Some girls get there sooner, and some are still too immature for for dating at age 18.

I know that Statutory Rape (??) laws exist to keep the real pervs at bay - horray. But hey- some of us guys have wider ranges of age requirements in their dating lives. In Europe I heard some mothers are actually "pushing" their daughters on older men.. Not in these parts.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

Damn, hannah, I'm sorry. I had a brain-fried kind of day.

I would change the thing where you go to the girl's house to meet her parents and her dad automatically thinks/knows you're having or are goin to have sex with her. Because that always sucks. For me and for him.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

In my ideal world, I wouldn't be expected to giggle and play stupid so that the guy felt smarter. I hate myself every. single. time. the phrase "Wow, I could never do that" comes out of my mouth. Sometimes I even complete the thought with a statement about being too dumb. There must be other girls who do that.

And re: younger women. I think statutory rape laws (and social norms) should stand. The laws only cover to age 14 or 16 in most states. I thought I knew everything at 16...big college girl, me. I was an idiot.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

I'm with the phone rule. And that goes for just about anything: if you don't mean it, don't say it.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2002

"And maybe the "Anniversary Proposal Rule" - on the first year anniversary of the first time you slept with her, you must either pony up a ring an a proposal, or give her the option of cutting you loose."

This is why 50% of marriages end in divorce. Remember kids, developing a solid relationship isn't important, planning the wedding is.

And since when does a man need to give a woman permission to break up?

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

Right now I would change the attitude that a woman's career is just a pastime or hobby she indulges in until her child is born and her real life starts.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

"And since when does a man need to give a woman permission to break up?"

wait, i've heard this one.

oh yeah, when she's chained to the wall in your basement.

but i agree with you about the marriage stuff. would you rather have a guy who proposes to you because the calendar says he should, or because he wants to spend the rest of his life with you?

if you're unhappy waiting, move on.

my rule change? make it so eatin' truly ain't cheatin'.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

Heh. Love droogie. Eatin' ain't cheatin', indeed.

All you over-protective parents- Lighten the hell up!

I bet five thousand that Brian doesn't have a daughter.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

I read a really fascinating book last year called Baby Wars, in which the author tries to put Western cultural mating methods in a sociobiological context -- everything from postpartum depression to incest. His (actually their: the doctor and his co-writer) explained parents' protecting daughters in terms of gene passing: if the daughter has a child and then gets abandoned by the father, that's a triple whammy to the grandparents: it means greater likelihood that their own resources will have to be tapped; it means fewer resources for the grandchild, and thus a lower chance of the grandchild growing up and continuing the gene line; and it means fewer resources for the daughter, decreasing the chances that she'll have more healthy children. Parents can afford to be more lenient about their sons' children because if he mates with the wrong woman, it doesn't mean nine months of inability to procreate for him, and it's less likely that their (the grandparents') resources will be called upon to support the child. On the other hand, they might be suspicious of a son's mate because they don't want their son to be contributing to the survival of a child that isn't actually his.

It was all very bleak and, like I said, Western-centric -- I'd have to go back and read to see if it discusses matriarchal societies -- but it put my parents' attitude towards The Smoker, at least, in a context I hadn't considered.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

I bet five thousand that Brian doesn't have a daughter.

Oh my god. That is why I am so afraid I'll have a daughter. I'd be so afraid of the guys she was dating, I'd never want to let her leave the house. I would totally be one of those paranoid, suspicious/scary dads when it comes to her dates/boyfriends.

I think that's always karma for how we guys acted as teens, that it comes back to us like that.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

Yeah, that's what The Smoker says -- that he'll be a protective dad because he knows what he was like as a teenager.

I mean, will I be worried about my daughter? Yes, because there are so many ways in which teenage sex can go wrong, from the merely off- putting to the genuinely dangerous. But I hope I won't view every guy she brings home as a guaranteed future crack addict.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

I'd make it okay for women to propose. Yeah, yeah, I know it's supposed to be okay, equality and all that. But I have a friend who proposed and now every time they fight or she feels neglected in the relationship, she wonders if he would have ever done it if she hadn't. The female brain would have to be completely rewired to make this one work though. And the male brain too, no more of this 'I am man. I must provide. I must win you and ravage you.... oh yeah, bring me a beer, would ya?'

Sorry, I'm just sayin'....

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

Oh, I'm going to worry like hell over my daughter. I don't know how anyone couldn't - the number of friends I have who've been victims of date rape alone makes me scared to have kids, period.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

I'd also make it so Egg Snatchers would have to have a special i.d. or something. Just a little E.S. on the bottom of their license.

I for sure think a parent's level of worry is directly related to their teenage years. Therefore my parents, Sandra Dee and Shy Guy, didn't do a whole lot of worrying. I probably won't either, unless I marry That Guy and our children are his payback.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

"Anniversary Proposal Rule"

Dude, what state does that law exist in? I'd be married and divorced ten times over if I ever had that expectation.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

I don't think there has to be a proposal by the one year point, but there has to be honest discussion. "I see us married, but not until at least another year or two." "I see us married, someday, and I have no idea when that will be or how that will happen." "Talking about marriage gives me hives, it'll give me hives six months from now, it'll give me hives four years from now, I'm just going to pretend I didn't hear you." "Wait- you thought we were dating?"

You know, whatever you really think about the future of the relationship. But if you're stringing a girl along, be honest about it.

That's my biggest peeve- dishonesty. Which is why the "I'll call you" rankles so much. You don't have to say it. No one is making you. If you're not going to call, don't say it.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

But... I thought that's what you wanted to hear...

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

God... women are always putting pressure on me... I just say these things to make you happy...

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2002

I would abolish the "door test" that men always pull on the first date. Sure, it's nice to have the car door opened for me, but if I forget to unlock your door or if I can't find the damn lock, don't make a big deal about it.

As for the phone call discussion. I agree with everyone else--if a guy says he's going to call, he should call. That's just rude not to, yo!

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2002

I would get rid of the "best behavior" rule right up front. I've dated some men that seemed great on the first few dates, but after their true, idiotic natures came out, I couldn't stand them anymore. If I'd have known that right up front, I would never have gone out with them in the first place.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

I'd also make it so Egg Snatchers would have to have a special i.d. or something. Just a little E.S. on the bottom of their license.

I'm so confused. Can somebody translate for me?

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2002

An Egg Snatcher (TM - My old roommate Mo) is a guy who will date a girl younger than him, (usually 5 or so years younger) for several, several years, continually promising marriage etc., only to dump her when she's close to 30. Thus, he snatched all her good eggs and left her with nada. Then the Egg Snatcher will begin dating another 25 year old, but this time, instead of him being only 29, he's 34.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2002

First, to stay on topic, I would actually add a rule: All women would be interested in me. It's a little specific to make it into a book, but I think I'd enjoy life. And before I make it an official rule, I'd definately have to refine it quite a bit to nip the obvious caveats in the bud.

Second, I'd also like for folks to wear an "availability" badge. Little signs that say, "I'm married", "I'm single", "I'm married and looking", "I'm single, but plan to remain that way", "I'm desperate", and "I'm looking for a good lay."

Lastly, I just want to say, that while I love this thread, it has just shown me how completely oblivious I am to the "rules".

"Women eat like birds on dinner dates." I thought this was only on tv. Of course, I actively encourage people I go to dinner with to eat more, because I have a very large appetite.

can we jettison the whole bogus waiting period before calling someone you like? Never paid attention to this rule. If you want to call, fucking call already. If you don't, then see the "I'll call you" rule above.

I would change the thing where you go to the girl's house to meet her parents and her dad automatically thinks/knows you're having or are goin to have sex with her. This one probably hurt me. I've never been nervous about meeting the parents. I don't even think twice about it. Unfortunately, I feel the same way about her meeting mine. It's usually been, "Hey, I have to stop by my parents'. It'll only take a minute." I've never really thought about it as being a big deal. I've probably upset more than one woman by that. (Hee! My mom still refers to a particular girl who I dated for 2 weeks whenever I talk about any female friend from college. She made quite an impression.)

In my ideal world, I wouldn't be expected to giggle and play stupid so that the guy felt smarter. My only good relationships with women have been with those who have been willing to step up and challenge me. If you can't hold you're own in a debate, we're not going to make it very long.

But if you're stringing a girl along, be honest about it. That's my biggest peeve- dishonesty. I'm evil here. I won't be dishonest, but I'll string her along. I've just had to many relationships end by her asking, "Where do you see this going?" and me having to respond honestly with, "Nowhere" to deny that this is a bad trait of mine.

I would abolish the "door test" that men always pull on the first date. I don't even know what this is referring to. Is that the, "I unlocked and opened the door for you, so at least you could unlock my door?" I guess I'm a bastard here, too. I've got remote entry, so by the time you get to the passenger side door, it's unlocked. Open it your damn self. I might get the physical door if it was a special occasion like a prom or something, but in general, you know how to get in a car, you don't need my assistance. It seems a lot like throwing my coat down over a puddle (not a fucking chance! I love my coat!).

Seriously, I don't know these little rules. I expect that when/if I eventually get married, it will have been talked about before I go buy the ring. And while I'll open the restaurant door if I arrive there first, I'd expect my date to do the same. And any woman who is not willing to gorge herself on sushi at dinner is completely missing the point of going to sushi.

Maybe my ineptitude at "the game" (or "the rules") is why I've been single for so long. I like to believe that it's simply evidence that y'all have been missing out (See rule #1).

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2002

Fred- Here's a thought for you. How do you know that a lot of women AREN'T interested in you? I would go out with any guy who asked me - you never know. But they don't ask. So maybe it's y'all with the problem. Runnin' around looking for your very own take on a virginal Pamela Anderson and ignoring the shy girls who could turn out to be a lot of fun. But I'm not bitter...

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2002

Okay, when asked, "Should I call you, or will you call me?", "We'll figure it out" is not an acceptable answer.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

I've got remote entry....

In that case, I think it's perfectly acceptable if the guy doesn't open my car door. It's sort of overkill. But if not, I fully expect my door to be unlocked, and opened.

I have a lot of little things like this. If he hits 9 out of 10 of them, I won't not see him again because he missed number 10, but if he hits none of them? Or two or three? He's not for me.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

H, I'm slow getting back on the internet today, but men? If you don't unlock your date's door? You're not getting any.

I just had this vision of poor H on a date standing outside the car door, waiting and waiting for her date to unlock it, and him just sitting there.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002

Cute. But, assuming its unlocked, do I really need to open it for her? It seems so antiquated. While I'm at it should I tell you who to vote for, tell you what to make me for dinner, or let you know when you're allowed to speak?

Ladies, I believe you're grown-ups. I believe you can be effective firefighters, cops, and CEO's. I certainly hope you know how to open your own car door, and have the motor skills to navigate around your own puddle, because I'm not going to ruin my coat so that your shoes don't get messy.

I hold doors open for other people if I'm the first one there. I think it's polite. I expect/hope others will hold the door if they're there first.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002

No one expects the coat in the puddle thing. Seriously, no one. I've never seen anyone do it and I'm not even sure I've seen it in a movie.

Why not open the door though? I mean, I hate it because I feel like that person is focusing their attention on me, but why not? Every day we do things that fall within the scope of traditional gender roles. I hem my father's pants, for chrissakes. My brother expects me to cook for him when he comes over to my apartment. Opening a door? Not such a biggie. I'll definitely reach for the door myself, but if you can reach it first...

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002

No, Fred, I totally agree with you on the remote entry what-if-it's- already-unlocked scenario. In that case, it's stupid for him to walk around to my side and open the door. Now if he DID it would probably endear him to me a little, but if not? I wouldn't think anything of it. Now, if opens his door, gets in and then hits the unlock button? Bad.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002

I certainly hope you know how to open your own car door

Right on, Fred. I do. However, going by the old adage that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you, consider your options and open the door. It's a nice thing to do - but hey, you don't have to do it every time. Just times when you feel like being really nice to someone. Sometimes I open the car door for my mom or other girls. I have, on occasion, opened the car door for a man if I was driving. It's not a statement about tradition or superiority or who's in control - it's just nice.

I'm not even saying it's The Polite or The Proper Thing to do. It's just a nice, meaningless gesture, like you're saying "Welcome to my car."

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002

Aloe, you sound very thoughtful and mature. Bravo.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002

God, can I please reiterate the If you say you're going to call, CALL Rule? Because, stupid me, I tend to believe people are going to do what they say they're going to do. I mean, don't make a federal case out of wanting to see the person again and then fail to do anything about it.

Sorry. Not bitter.

-- Anonymous, June 09, 2002

Oh, hey, I forgot to tell you! (So and so) called. I totally forgot to deliver the message. My bad.

Carry on! :)

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Omar! That's what the dry erase board is for.

God.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Hannah, don't blow his cover. Around here he's just Omar, a mild- mannered Texan -- not the Supreme Being.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

That's it, Medammit.

Smitings for the lot of you.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

"Medammit." I just got it.

I thought Omar and Mike were revealing their secret love by exposing their pet names for one another.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

If that were the case, I would have said, "Flufferbunny."

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

It kind of has to be secret. I'm banned from the state after that weekend at AB's. But y'all probably saw that story on Court TV anyway.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002