WE HAVE 2 GOATS AS PETS. 9 YEAR OLD NANNY NAMED PUFF WAS FINE IN THE AM WHEN MY HUSBAND FED HER, BUT BY MID AFTERNOON SHE WAS IN OBVIOUS DISTRESS AND COULDN'T GET UP. CALLED VET IN EARLY EVENING. HE EXAMINED HER AND SAID HE WASN'T SURE WHAT WAS WRONG, BUT SAID HE WOULD GIVE HER ANTIBIOTICS VIA INJECTIONS, AND THAT IF SHE WAS LAYING ON HER SIDE WHEN WE WENT TO FEED HER THE NEXT MORNING TO CALL HIM BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE A GOOD SIGN, AND THAT HE MAY HAVE TO PUT HER DOWN. HE GAVE HER TWO INJECTIONS IN THE HIND END, AND ONE IN HER NECK, AND WITHIN A FEW MINUTES SHE WAS DEAD. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEA WHY? VET WAS UNSURE OF WHAT WAS WRONG WITH HER, AND ALSO WHY SHE DIED SO SUDDENLY. PUFF'S MOTHER, COCOA, IS 10 YEARS OLD AND SEEMS IN FINE HEALTH, AT LEAST AT THIS TIME. WE'RE CONCERNED THAT SAME THING MIGHT HAPPEN TO COCOA, BUT ARE ALSO CURIOUS AS TO WHETHER THE ANTIBIOTIC INJECTIONS CAUSED PUFF'S DEATH, AND IF SO, WHY.

-- Suzanne from PA (windemaker@cgc1.com), March 07, 2002

Answers

Anyone's guess but what were the other two injections? I can guess some kind of B vitamin was one, a steriod for the other? Could be unrelated to the injections could have been shock from the injections. What were some of her recent details Feed and changes to, mineral, fever, open or preg?????

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), March 07, 2002.

I saw a healthy 2 year old horse fall dead within a few seconds of an injection, apparently a bubble in the blood stream, it does happen.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), March 07, 2002.

Some medications can cause severe reactions, often ending in death, if inadvertantly given in the bloodstream instead of the muscle or under the skin. I have seen people that I thought knew a lot about animals give injections improperly.

-- Stormy in SC (tstorm@prtcnet.com), March 07, 2002.

If the injections were something the goat had never had before, she could have had an allergic reaction to the antibiotic. Anaphylactic shock can kill very quickly.

-- Dia (moocow@gpcom.net), March 07, 2002.

It probably was a reaction to the medicine (not B complex but the Penn G). Two days ago, I gave and have given for several years vaccinations to my lambs, I give the shots and then band the tails. Well a set of twins both started foaming at the mouths, breathing labored, I have always kept on hand Epinephrine but have never needed it and wasn't even sure of the instructions (didn't have my glasses with me). I immediatly gave them the shot through of Epinephrine and after having to give them each 2 shots five minutes apart they finnally came out of it. The point is they would have died with out the saver Epinephrine. I've talked to vets who say that it is better not to save because they think it is genectic, I find that hard to believe because I own the mother and the mother's mother and this was the first time I've seen this. Although, it was twins so...I don't know. But..I will never give a shot without Epinephrine in my kit.

-- debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), March 07, 2002.

Could it also be that she just so happened to die at that time and the shots had nothing to do with it?

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), March 07, 2002.

I read an article in Dairy Goat Journal that giving shots to goats can be very tricky as there is a nerve or something in the backend that if you hit that, you can kill them.

-- Dianne (willow@config.com), March 07, 2002.

One of my friends had a goat drop dead right after getting some PennG. The doe had never had a reaction to this drug before.

-- Leslie in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), March 07, 2002.

It is prudent to buy some enepharine from your vet to have on hand just in case of a reaction to any medications, especially anti biotics.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 07, 2002.

Especially antibiotics? Could you explain that in more detail please? I can't say I've ever sen an adverse reaction to antibiotics though I know any injection can cause anaphylactic shock. I've seen it often (half a dozen times?) when we use Tramisol injectable wormer, once or twice with vacinating, I seem to remember Ivomec doing it once as an injection too. But never with antibiotics or vitamins. Can't say I've seen it with Dex, oxytocin, or PMSG either. Not suggesting any of them are fool proof just questioning if you know of some research showing antibiotics being particularly problematic. I don't keep epinephyrine BTW. I do mean to pick some up but it hasn't been a big deal.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), March 07, 2002.

The fact remains that she was so sick that she couldn't get up - it is more likely that what she had wrong with her was more to do with her death than some commonly used drugs. Drug reactions are extremely rare - especially those causing instant death!

I will always remember a sick goat that I got called to euthanase - very old and a bit sick - didn't look like it was at deaths door. I drew up the euthanasia solution and took one step towards it - it promptly lay down and died before I even got the needle into it - I kid you not!!!!

-- Cowvet (cowvet_nz@hotmail.com), March 07, 2002.

Cowvet, that was one well-trained goat. It just wanted to save the owner the cost of the euthanasia meds! Somehow I just can't seem to train mine that well.

I've had an animal go into anaphylactic shock while vaccinating, but only to the point where she fell over...then she got up and went about her business. Hey, I guess I do have the animals trained well...she got up BEFORE I could give her the Epi shot!!! Well, I'll be darned!

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), March 07, 2002.

Sheryl, sounds like you had a Fainting goat! lol! Seriously though, we vaccinated our 3 fainters about a week ago and about a minute after vaccinating one of the wethers he fell over! Talk about scaring us... but he was just fainting because another goat was bullying him. :o)

-- Sharon in AL (Sharonspaws@aol.com), March 08, 2002.

Suzanne:

She may have just died because she was too far gone, but I disagree with Cowvet....reactions to medications are VERY VERY common in humans and animals. Antibiotics can save lives, but can also be dangerous medicine. I have seen so many who are the vicitims of bad medicine -- humans-- that I don't do it with my animals at all....

however, antibiotics are the meds of choice in a crisis, which this was. it may have caused death, or may not have.... you could pay to have an autoposy done.

i am sorry for your loss.

-- marcee (thathope@mwt.net), March 08, 2002.

Although not common, adverse reactions to anti biotics can cause both humans and animals to go into anaphlaytic (sp?) shock. That is why I suggested having the enepharyine handy just in case. Usually signs of shock are swollen tongue, convulsions, and chocking a sthe tongue swell and the air is cut off. Its probable that the doe may not have died from anti biotics, but without a autospy its hard to know.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 09, 2002.

Well I have had my second set of twins go into shock and "Thank You" for Ephrinphene. The antidote has saved me 4 lambs this year, they would have all died for tentus antioxidin. I have horses too close to the sheep is why they have to have the vaccination. Although, I think the rest will just have the cd/t. Never seen the reaction to shock before this year. You can buy the antiodote through MidWest Sheep/Goat Supplier in Kansas. Otherwise you need a vet to get it for you. I will not give a shot without it next to me. I doub't though that your goat died that quickly from the shot, it usually takes about 15 minutes. Unless it was so sick and any reaction to the shot did her in. Sorry for you lost. I lost a few lambs this year and it is upsetting.

-- debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), March 09, 2002.

Thank you Bernice, I don't walk around feeling lucky, generally speaking. You have to keep some perspective on drug use and not let the VERY odd occurance or reaction scare people away from using medication appropriately. I can reasonably guesstimate that I've done over 20,000 injections over the last 10 years, 9 reactions makes for a laughable percentage, and of those only one death. Now if I had Epi on hand how many would I kill by using that? Yeah I'll get some,........ eventually.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), March 09, 2002.

Ross, I am wondering if you know anything about Ephriphrene. I don't so I am asking anyone if they have seen an adverse reaction to the antidote. I am wondering if you should think twice before using it if there is. Thanks, Debbie P.S. I am learning too. This was my first year for shock from vaccinations. Although the kind of vaccination I used is supposed to be one of the hardest on an animal.

-- debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), March 09, 2002.

You are so welcome ross. I really must apologize for the typos in that last e-mail. Been milking a few does by hand and its getting to them. Debbi, I have not read of nor heard of any adverse reactions to enephyrine, but I imagine that is a possibility.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 09, 2002.

I have a lot of animals and injection really is the fastest and most accurate method of getting medication where it's needed. I do use oral dosing; it's almost a bigger pain. No there isn't a real danger to using epinephrine; some will be allergic to the cure is all. There are horror stories for everything that happens in life. Kids get attacked by the family pet, gun accidents, sudden heart attacks......... it's all risk and it all makes life the more valuable. Misdiagnose the ailment and the cure can be worse than the problem, still doing nothing can be worse than that still. By reading the responses the theme was shifting towards "the cure being worse than the condition" based on a rare occurrence. That's just plain wrong and most of it is based on hype. I've seen adverse reactions to injected drugs and it's no monster. Untreated disease will kill with much more authority.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), March 09, 2002.

You are so right Ross. Sometimes the old tales get in there and folks, especially newbies get scared. By NOT doing anything the disease or condition can worsen and death will result. i recall myself having given sick goats a hodge-podge of medications to try to save it. On most occassions it has worked, lost a few though. I think the saddest was a baby buck las tyr who was in my arms as I wa smixing the life saving conction up and had the phone to my ear as a dear friend and goat mentor helped. But again, those incidences are rare. And sometimes its just nature, no matter what you do, its inevitable.

I think you have to know your goat and its health history too in order to determine the best route of treatment.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 09, 2002.

I am no goat expert (yet) but I can tell you that epi is a synthetic adrenalin and we use it in allergic reactions in people all the time. It is also used in cardiac arrest and other emergency situations. I have never heard of anyone being allergic to it, although it can have some side effects such as shakes and jitters and racing heart. These are all just a normal reaction to adrenalin. Jan

-- Jan in WI (vrf@pressenter.com), April 16, 2002.