I recently bought a doe from a very reputable breeder in a neighboring town. When i went to his house and looked at his doe's i picked one thathe noticed had a knot on the side of her face. Smaller than a golf ball. Well other than that i really liked her and he told me the knot was from her rubbing on the wood in the barn, and that she had likely gotten a splinter. He told me that it would take a few months but that the hair would fall off and then to lance it at the bottom and treat with iodine. Now i was reading in the Archives about abcesses and now i'm worried. No one says anything at all about a knot or abcess bec of a splinter. I was reading about people who sold off thier entire herd to get rid of them. Did i make a mistake buying her? Like i said the breeder is very reputable. what do you think?

-- Susan (dsowen@tds.net), March 09, 2002

Answers

An abcess can be caused by alot of things.If it is very noticeable,I would lance it,drain the pus,then treat with iodine or similar medication. It's not a major problem,unless you wait too long...blood poisoning can result.It's also better to lance it,rather than let it burst. Johna

-- Johna (marcnjohna@aol.com), March 09, 2002.

In my opinion I'd get her off your place as soon as possible. I had a goat dairy when we lived in Wisconsin-never had an abcess. When I moved to KY I wanted goats again, I too found three nice does( or so I thought). About a week after getting them home one got a lump about the size of a golfball, then another got a smaller lump about the size of a 'shooter' marble. Well goat #1's lump swelled then broke open. Although I cleaned it well, it was too late & all the goats were infected. We contacted a local livestock auction to inquire about selling them but told the auction house that they had caseous lymphitis(sp?) and the guy looked at us like we were nuts. He said most goats 'get lumps', we tried to explain the possibility of them being contagious but he still bought them. That was a year & 1/2 ago and we will not put any hoofed animals on that land for another year. If the abcess hadn't broke we probably would have got away without problems, but since it did we are afraid to take a chance on infecting any new animals. If you do sell them & the abcesses hadn't broke open, afterwards put down alot of barn lime ( till the floor is totally white) & let it sit for at least a week, then sweep it up & relime lightly & leave it until you are ready to get new animals. Sorry to give you possible bad news, but we have been in your shoes & this is what we did to help prevent further contamination. You can alos contact the county extension or a dairy goat association for further recommendations for your area. I hope this helps, you're not alone, many of us have had a bad experience buying from a local farmer with a good reputation. We just didn't know that in some areas they don't think abcesses are a big deal. Good Luck, Kathy

-- Kathy Aldridge (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), March 09, 2002.

Susan, I don't know about abcesses in relation to goats but I do know about cats.

From my understanding, an abcess is caused by a puncture wound of some sort (with cats it is usually during a fight and done by a claw). The hole seals over but the inside gets infected and fills with pus. When you discover an abcess, you should open it (lance it) and drain it, squeezing out as much pus as you can. Then you will need to get antiseptic into the hole or opening. I have seen a child's medicine syringe (no needle) used to "irrigate", meaning to squirt the antiseptic into the hole and let it run out to flush the wound.

Perhaps someone knows what might be the best antiseptic to use? Alcohol, hydrogen perioxide, or what??

-- LBD, Maryland (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), March 09, 2002.

Susan, I don't know about abcesses in relation to goats but I do know about cats.

From my understanding, an abcess is caused by a puncture wound of some sort (with cats it is usually during a fight and done by a claw). The hole seals over but the inside gets infected and fills with pus. When you discover an abcess, you should open it (lance it) and drain it, squeezing out as much pus as you can. Then you will need to get antiseptic into the hole or opening. I have seen a child's medicine syringe (no needle) used to "irrigate", meaning to squirt the antiseptic into the hole and let it run out to flush the wound.

Perhaps someone knows what might be the best antiseptic to use? Alcohol, hydrogen perioxide, or what??

(This may be a double posting. I am sorry if that is the case, I wasn't sure if the first one went through.)

-- LBD, Maryland (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), March 09, 2002.

Oh boy! Now before i go any further let me state that many lumps or abcesses are not CL or caseous lymphatis, having said that i will now mention that this does indeed sound like CL. I would be very leary. Again, it could be true, but I am hesitant. Did you ask the breeder when the las ttime the goat was wormed? it may be bottle jaw, but again, the breeder said a splinter. Yes, you can lance and drain and then clean the area, but that is a decision you yourself will ahve to make. if its CL and you ahve goals of showing or selling then you might be shooting yourself in the foot. And, if selling for meat, well, some places will take goats with CL, however, if the abcesses are internal then that could mean trouble. Our meat goat Coop in VA wa stold by a slaughter facility that if a abcess appeared in the goat internally then w ewere responsible if it came from us for the cost of the goat and clean up. Not a good thing.

Here are some websites to help.

CL vaccine site:

http://www.capraproducts.com/CL.htm

You can also treat CL by an injection of formyhalyde as well. Just inject into the center, but you must be careful as if its in the wrong spot you can harm the goat.

http://www.jackmauldin.com/cl.htm

Here is the site with pics of what is and isn't CL for the lump areas. http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles/abscess.htm

Here is a website about bottle jaw: That too can mimick CL abceses http://www.geocities.com/rwalters0/wormsorno.html

Hope this helps.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 09, 2002.

lump is on the SIDE of her face?? Unlikely to be CL as that affects lymph nodes and there are none on the side of the face! More likely an abscess - either from a tooth root infection or mouth injury. Lance, drain and flush - should be OK

-- Cowvet (cowvet_nz@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

he told me to wait until the hair fell off, should i do that or lance it now? and how long should i flush it with iodine? how many days and how many times per day? I am also friends with this breeder and would be shocked if he didn't tell me the truth. If it was something very bad i really don't think he would have let me take her. i hope i am right

-- Susan (dsowen@tds.net), March 10, 2002.

Call your vet and have HIM lance it and test it to see if it's the contagious type of abscesses. Then if it is, you have a professional opinion, otherwise the breeder could just say you don't know what you're talking about. It certainly could be caused by a splinter, especially if an abcess (the contagious type) had busted and splattered on the piece of wood in years past.

I did have a doe that developed a knot on her lower jaw, called the vet out to break it open and test it, because as in your case, I would have needed a vet's say so to prove it and get my money back. In my does case, it wasn't an abcess, the vet said it was probably a splinter or thorn or something. It didn't have pus in it, it was fleshy and weird inside. They cultured it, and it wasn't CL.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 10, 2002.

Susan. I sure hope it is just a splinter. (where exactly on the face is it, how far from the neck?) A lot of breeders are 'barn blind'. They say they hate turned out feet, and have a whole barn full of goats with turned out feet, yet their goats are beautiful and don't have this trait. Their goats don't have CAE, yet they haven't tested for years, some of the does freshen with hard udders, and others have hugely swollen joints. It may be that this breeder has CL in the herd and is simply barn blind. If this is so, it will be difficult, but you need to find out and break the news to him. Don't be surprised if he doesn't take the news well... I would get the contents of the abcess tested for your own peace of mind if nothing else.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 10, 2002.

Quite a few years ago, I started breeding Kinder goats, when the Kinder breed was just starting up in Wash State. I had my herd up to 60 goats and things were moving along quite well - - when an abcess appeared on one of my goats. I was a novice goat person - - just noticed the lump, had the vet look at it - said it was an abcess. The vet warned me enough so I was concerned. . . . . .but not enough to alert me to far reaching consequences. Like,. . .soon goat after goat would have an abcess. Apparently my barn and grounds were infected. I couldn't stop the recurring problem. I ended up getting rid of my entire herd of really beautiful Kinder goats.

Several years passed and I wanted goats again. Purchased a nubian at a sale - and after she was here for a few months, guess what appeared on the side of her face! Big swollen lump. She eventually went back to the sale barn after kidding too, for other reasons as well.

Now I have her daughter, and I keep her in a little area off my yard. I inquired here on the forum, and from info shared with me, I am afraid my goat barn area is still infected, and I don't know if I can effectively disinfect everything.

I would get rid of the goat before that abcess breaks ! ! !

Judy

-- J McFerrin (JMcFerrin@aol.com), March 10, 2002.

Lets try to settle this a little more, . I have read some of the replies and in order to better assist you, we need to know:

Describe the location on the side of face: Exactly which side, right or left, location, under ear, on side of nose, in area of teeth? Did you look at the locations on the one website I sent you for locations of what is or isn't CL? Describe the consistency or feel of the lump, the size as it is right now, is it squishy or hard?

Is it possible you can take a syringe and withdraw a little fluid out of it? This is a technique vets use. Look a tthe fluid, what do you see?

Have you checked her teeth? Look carefully into the mouth, get a flashlight and look, its probable its a salivary gland cyst, look again on the website, Onion Creek, to see where a salivary gland cyst is at.

While it is probable that CL may not or may be the issue or problem, be very careful. You need to be sure and I am sure if this person is a friend he/she will not be offended if they honestly don't know the specifics of lumps or abcesses.

The instructions to flush, again, are listed on the links I provided, if you need more help, let me know. You need to irrigate the area with water to fush out, then cleanse with 7% iodine, then as a precaution spray blue coat. It promotes healing. Try to cover the area if possible. Treat daily. That would be my suggestion for a lump if its CL or not.

I wish you well.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 10, 2002.

Yes, in my opinion you made a mistake in buying her. The owner should have taken care of this problem if it truly was just a splinter, before he let you take her home. You should take her to the vet, have the vet aspirate some of the contents of the abscess and send it to UC Davis. Have them test the exude to find out if it is truly just an abscess from a splinter, something benign or CL. We have seen a salivary cyst before, and a thorn causing huge fluid filled abscess on the ears of a Nubian before, besides what the vet charges for an office visit to aspirate the contents it costs a whole 6$ to run a test for CL! But abscess on the face near the ear, abscess on the jaw, abscess on the neck, over and under the ribs, under the belly, up the flank, udder, rear udder, up under the tail, are usually CL abscess. If the breeder is very reputable, they will want you to test for this. There is no use in guessing, nip this in the bud before it infects your other goats or your place! It could indeed be a splinter, a splinter with CL abscess exude rubbed on it from a previous doe with CL! While at the vet go ahead and have your doe blood tested for CAE also, they can use the blood for both CAE and CL testing, it is also very inexpensive. Only accept Elisa testing, if your vet balks at the idea of sending it all the way to UC Davis. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

Oh, Susan. I am soooooo sorry. It could very well be Caseous Lymphadenitis. PLEASE have it tested. I had a doe that tested very weak positive. She had a lump that I expressed. It is sticky looking thick wood glue looking stuff. We are eating her. And she was an important doe to my herd. ABSOLUTELY test her. And quarantine her. She can infect the others or other creatures. UC Davis, as Vicki has said, will process the testing (Vicki, Bernice, et al are who helped me). PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have her tested. A lot of goat folk I know say this is just normal (CL) goat stuff. It's not. Hugs to you....

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), March 11, 2002.

I have multitudes of questions.

1) Does CL permanently injure or kill goats?

2) Does it lower milk production?

3) Can it be treated?

4) What causes it?

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), March 11, 2002.

I don't know ALL the answers, but here goes for a try. 1. Yes. It debilitates them and lowers their thriftiness 2. Yes. 3. NO and Yes. Do not try the formaldehyde treatment. I guess it's just as easy to kill them as not using this method. There IS a vaccine that's approved for sheep but I don't know whether it works for goats - I'm going to try it. Verdict is still out on it. 4. Not exactly sure what causes it. But it's spread thru infected goats. Did I get it right, Vicki, Bernice, Rebekah, et al?

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), March 11, 2002.

1. Yes. It can kill them. The abcesses are not only external, they are also found inside the body and can kill the goat if they develop around organs.

2. I would say yes, because the abcesses can develop in the udder. Yuck, not what I want in my milk!

3. Well, it can be treated to some extent, the visible abcesses for example. But what about the internal ones? It can't be permanently cured in an animals from what I have read. It can be prevented by the vaccine, by simply keeping a clean herd on clean ground, and by raising the kids from infected does on pasteurized milk. Eradication of this disease is not easy and makes CAE seem insignificant.

4. It's caused by a bacteria, that can live a long time in the soil or on wood.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 11, 2002.

okay, it is on the right side of her face under her ear. like down on the jawbone, feels hard and doesn't seem to be painful to her. yes i went to the site and at first i thought salivatory gland...bec thats where i remembered it being. however when i looked at her again it is not in the right place to be that. So, vet is coming out on the 22 of March and we'll go from there. I don't know if this makes any difference but when i first looked at her two weeks ago, it wasn't there. She still had not kidded so the gentleman would not let her go ( he kept the kids ) I wish the ver could come sooner but there's nothing i can do about it, i certainly don't feel comfortable opening it or drawing anything out of it so i'll just have to wait for him. And i do plan on having it tested to be sure. Do you think she can wait that long without it bursting?

-- Susan (dsowen@tds.net), March 11, 2002.

Is there another vet who can do it sooner? The location does not sound good for you... Sorry.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 11, 2002.

Sounds like you are right on top of this Susan. She should be OK til the vet gets out. Watch the lump, if it gets to the point where hair starts falling off and shiny then isolate her and watch closely, usually the abcess will burst shortly afterwards. I wouldn't lance it if you aren't comftorable. Take care and good luck.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 11, 2002.