I enquired at Leica about the rumor that the production of the Noctilux was being swtiched to Germany. I received a message back that production will continue in Canada. There was however, an interesting comment on the end, that perhaps if there is a new Noctilux, that it might be produced in Germany. The disclaimer was that if this was going to happen that it would "be at least 2 years away". I am posting this only for further discussion, maybe somebody else knows something more.

-- Jack Wheeler (jwheel4@lycos.com), March 14, 2002

Answers

I don't think that Leica Camera makes enough off the Noctilux to warrant a new design. If memory serves me correct... the Noctilux was already re-designed once to a cost point (just like the 35 Summilux Aspherical). To re-design such a low-seller in Leica's line-up would most likely mean amortization of R&D costs over a decade which crimps cash-flow (a death nail for any modern publicly traded company). All IMHO.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

John makes an excellent point. Few people seem to realize how low the volume of Leica products really are. For example the Summilux 50/1.4 production on average is about 2000 lenses per year. The Noctilux 50, substanially less. People need to think about this when they whine about the high cost of Leica products.

-- Steve LeHuray (steve@icommag.com), March 14, 2002.

i have been told by a very reliable source that no new nocts have been made for a couple of years, and there are no plans to make any more in the immediate future. there are several hundred units on hand waiting to be sold.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 14, 2002.

They're going to allow that *several hundred" of a unit that doesn't sell very well to accumulate?

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), March 14, 2002.

maybe they should give a free noct to each of the first 200 purchasers of an m7 camera. or, more likely, to the first 200 saps to buy one of the remaining (and apparently impossible to sell -- leica won't even allow dealers to return them for credit) null series cameras. p.s. while we're on the subject of where things are being made, erwin puts has said that all m7 cameras will be made in portugal for the time being. were recent vintage m6ttl cameras also made there? what, if anything, is being made in solms -- just some of the lenses?? which ones??

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 14, 2002.

Roger. Don't misquote Erwin. He did NOT say M7s were made in Portugal. He said some/many of the parts are made in Portugal. The final assembly and quality testing is done in Germany; and the cameras say Germany (rather than Portugal). Nevertheless, you are correct that the Leica Portugal factory has the machinery to fabricate many of the components for M cameras, not just the M7 but the M6/TTL also.

Jack. I would be very surprised if there were a new version of the 50/1.0 Noctilux, since this is a highly specialized lens which sells in relatively small numbers. But anything is possible. Some of the recent M products have surprised me, as I wouldn't have thought these would be produced. Who konws...

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 14, 2002.

eliot, with all due respect, it certainly seems like just about all of the camera is being produced in portugal (although maybe it is returned to germany to have the body cap and "made in germany" put on). puts speaks specifically in his article of the portugal factory containing the machinery for fabricating the bodies and assembling the shutters, and also alludes to many more machines -- apparently all the equipment from the m3 days as well as lots of new computerized gear -- for making various other parts. he also says that the m7 is "manufacture[d]" in the portugal plant and that he was in portugal when leica "started to manufacture" the m7. do you have any specific knowledge about what, if anything, is being done in germany. erwin does not mention anything going on in germany in the article. it may be inaccurate, but there is no question that his review, at the VERY least, creates the strong impression that the m7 (and i guess the m6 ttl) is a made in portugal product. at least rollei put "made in singapore" on its (very well made) singaporean cameras. i wonder if us customs is ever going to call leica on this country of origin confusion -- tarriff rates are different between portugal and germany for photo gear.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 14, 2002.

and as for likely future revisions of the noct, it is worth noting that the lens, during its lifetime, has been revised three times -- all while never being a very big seller. why not again (although i hope they get to the 50 summilux first!!).

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 14, 2002.

RE: Made in Portugal. I'm not an LHSA member but get the magazine hand- me-down from a friend. They had an article on the making of the LHSA black-paint commemoratives, in which pictures clearly showed sub-units being packed in foam-lined cases in Port. for shipment to Solms for final assembly, alignment, testing and calibrating - top plates, shutter units, RF units ready to go but not yet connected.

With an RF and (for the M6) mechanical shutter I'd guess half the labor time involves the calibrating and adjustment, which gets done in Germany - so it seems like a very collaborative effort. It's not just a question of gluing on the red dots.

Is it not true that some of the parts and subassemblies, back in the Canadian days, were still made in Germany and shipped to Midland for final assembly? Those cameras were marked "Made in Canada" regardless.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 14, 2002.

Roger, we're discussing the 50/1.0 Noctilux, not the 50/1.2 that preceded it. The optical formula of the 50/1.0 has NEVER been revised. The barrel has been changed several times, most recently being to incorporate a built-in lenshood. When I say revised, I mean recomputing of the optical formula. Changes to the barrel don't really interest me.

I'll have to check Erwin's article again. It was not my impression that he said the camera was "made in Portugal", only that many parts were machined there. I'll get back to you on that point.

Regards.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 14, 2002.

Roger. I reread the relevant section in Erwin's site, and he really doesn't say exactly what is done in Portugal vs Germany, but you could certainly have the impression from reading the article that a lot of the work on the M7 is done in Portugal. He also mentions the green colored machines that were there (in Portugal) since 1953 when the M3 was introduced. Thus it is apparent that components of the M3 were made in Portugal.

Leica has from time immemorial utilized parts made elsewhere (eg., lens barrels made by Sigma) with the final assembly and quality testing in Germany. Since this has long been their practice, I assumed it would also be the case for the M7. But I do not know this for certain. There are some items marketed by Leica fabricated entirely in Portugal. Perhaps someone else can answer this question.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 14, 2002.

I was under the impression that the current Noct is made in Germany

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 14, 2002.

I was under the impression that the current Noct is made in Germany .

Nope. The Noctilux is still one of the seven great wonders of the Imperial Colony.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

i understand that the prior version of the noct was a 1.2 lens -- it was nonetheless a noctilux, and was replaced by the 1.0. my point was that the noctilux (whether 1.2 or 1.0) was revised during the life of the product, desite always being a low seller, and so it mite be revised again. who knows, maybe the next iteration will be a .85. leica made a scientific lens at 50mm at that speed years ago.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 14, 2002.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the new 50 Noctilux. BTW, the Noctilux 50/1.2 (introduced in 1966, which had two hand ground and polished aspherical elements and was Leica's first commercial aspheric lens) was a Wetzlar lens, designed and produced in Germany. When you talk about the Canadian Noctilux, you are talking about the 50/1.0 Noctilux 1976-present exclusively.

Leica made some extremely fast lenses for the military (eg., 90/1.0) and they made some very fast lenses for X-ray cameras (eg., the Picker X-ray camera). The latter include a 90/1.0 and a 65/0.75. I believe they also made an F/0.85 lens during WWII (? it may have been a projection lens). However, these lenses had no focussing mechanisms; and the X-ray lenses had no diaphragms either. The military (US Navy) 90/1.0 Elcan lens had rings that could be added for closer focussing than infinity, and the X-ray camera lenses were made for a specific distance. It's not the same as designing a lens for focussing at different distances with reasonably high image quality across the entire distance range and image area.

Probably, they could make an improved superfast 50/1.0 Noctilux M, but there would be little or no commercial incentive to do this.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 14, 2002.

Like the M6, and the M6TTL, the M7 is mostly made in Portugal, and then finished in Solms.

Top cover, levers and dial, and finally Red Dot.

Exactly what you can see when you visit Solms factory.

Everything is tested in Portugal, and then re-tested in Solms, because the simple fact of adjusting the top cover may change the setting of the rangefinder.

In my opinion, it will be better to do everything in Portugal.

But to many Leica users are snobs...

;-)

-- Lucien (Lucien_vd@yahoo.fr), March 15, 2002.

"Made in the EC" will be the solution, and more accurate.

-- Lucien (Lucien_vd@yahoo.fr), March 15, 2002.

On my visit to the Solm's factory the very informative tour guide was quite up front about the M6 having subassemblys worked up in Portugal and shipped to Solms for final assembly. (I also seem to remember him discussing some part, possibly for the R8 that was made in Mexico). When looking into the rooms where the M and R cameras are assembled I remember seeing mostly desks and what might be called "final assembly/adjustment" tools. The guide mentioned that a certain amount of work and parts had to come from Germany to be able to use the "Made in Germany" label. He also mentioned that Leica was sensitive to the fact that many folks prefer their Leica equipment to say Made in Germany and that is why they move enough of the assembly back to Solms. I suspect Leica meets all the "legal" criteria to use Made in Germany. After all, any inspector could just take the tour to see much of what is going on in Solms. My old R4 said Made in Portugal and my CL was made in Japan and I was happy with those. I would have still bought my M even if it did not say Made in Germany. It is cool to see teh old script Leica and see Leitz and Wetzlar engraved on the cameras but none of the new regular production cameras have these any more. I am happy to have Leica do whatever it takes to keep the M line viable and reliable and the company afloat.

My time in Germany and in Solms was in 1999 so it could be different at this time. There could be (or have been) "heavier" equipment "in the back".

Robert

-- Robert Ardinger (rardinger@kc.rr.com), March 15, 2002.

with the higher labor costs, real estate costs, utility costs, etc., i wonder how much a real "made in germany" m6 would cost???

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 15, 2002.