The tradition lives on.

The Leica M7 was developed at the multiple wish of our customers, who have demanded an M camera with aperture priority for years - almost decades. The result of our intense marketing research showed the potential for such a camera. We are convinced that the Leica M7 will be a successful camera. All innovations are smoothly integrated into the Leica M philosphy. The most important one, however - especially for you - is that the Leica M7 will not be a replacement for the Leica M6TTL, but a parrallel model. Also in the future there will always be a mechanical, fully manual Leica M6TTL. The M6TTL represents here the puristic, mechanical part of the Leica M philosophy. The Leica M7 offers M photography at the highest level with more comfort and speed. Kind regards, Nobby Clark. Photographic Consultant. Leica Camera Limited.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 15, 2002

Answers

"I" before "E" except after "C" Great news for the purists and great news for the rest of us knowing that Leica actually listens to its customers and does market research.

-- Dayton P. Strickland (daytonst@bellsouth.net), March 15, 2002.

"I" before "E" except after "C" Great news for the purists and great news for the rest of us knowing that Leica actually listens to its customers and does market research. ----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Dayton P. Strickland (daytonst@bellsouth.net), March 15, 2002.

As I recall, Leica said the same thing about the M4-P when the M6 was introduced - and for a short time, both models were in production.

-- Bryan Caldwell (bcaldwell51@earthlink.net), March 15, 2002.

I am absolutely sure this will be the official line until back inventory of M6s are depleted. Then the realities of manufacturing economics will set in (assuming reasonable success of the M7 of course)...

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), March 15, 2002.

I agree - it makes no sense for them to continue production of the M6

-- Anam Alpenia (aalpenia@dasar.com), March 15, 2002.

The same basic language was in the Leica literature about the parallel existence of the R8 and the R6.2 "for purists." On-hand stock of R6.2's is gone and so is the camera. . . .

Every time Leica posts its financials, they don't look good. Can it really be feasible for them to produce simultaneously M6TTL's in .58, .72 and .85 models and M7's in the same configurations?

I'll be impressed if we can still buy new a M6TTL in two years. I'll also be surprised.

-- Robert Schneider (rolopix@yahoo.com), March 15, 2002.

Seems a very direct statement to me.

Also in the future there will always be a mechanical, fully manual Leica M6TTL. The M6TTL represents here the puristic, mechanical part of the Leica M philosophy

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 15, 2002.

Hmmm? Well, will the person who stated a week or two ago that production of the M6TTL had already stopped like to come back on this?

I have to agree with the above sentiments - the M6 is dead, long live the M7.....but please bring back the M4!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), March 15, 2002.

"I'll be impressed if we can still buy new a M6TTL in two years. I'll also be surprised. "

Don't worry Robert, there'll be plenty "brand new in box" M6's around for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 15, 2002.

You are a real leica man,it wiuld seem.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 15, 2002.

Rob,

You're right, of course. I should have specified, "excluding New Old Stock." They'll be with us for a while. . . .

Allen,

Regarding Leica's unambiguous statement: I consider it as unambiguous as Mr. Cohn's remark of a couple of years ago saying that there would be no M7. Perfectly clear. But things change, other plans have been made, etc. Of course the M7 will not be a replacement for the M6TTL, as long as Leica has stock of M6TTL's to sell. When they're gone, the M7 will be sold as the "modern classic." No problem.

-- Robert Schneider (rolopix@yahoo.com), March 15, 2002.

Giles,

There may have been others who noted that their feelings that the M6 TTL was gone, but I was certainly one of them.

As this is written, I would doubt seriously that the M6 TLL has been produced for a few months. We would all concur I believe that Leica is a small company. With the introduction, and anticipated initial demand, for their first really new RF body in 18 years any small company would devote the bulk, if not all of their finite production resources to be ready for the spike in demand. That's simply good business on their part. Witness the flak they've taken for the non- availability of R motor drives, the f/2,8 Vario-Elmar ASPH, and most recently the 1.25x M VF magnifier.

Leica walks on the finest of tightropes, balancing their heritage with their place in the market, and finally with their most fundamental of concerns, that of surviving if not thriving.

They certainly recognize that the most basic of problems with the "purists" who bemoan the demise of a wholly mechanical shutter is that they are dieing. If they too were wholly purist, they would also die, the only arguable question is how long remains.

You must understand that in cases such as this it is their "heritage" that comes back to bite them. When you produce a product that is revered, not only for it's design and function, but also for its long life, you are in fact your own worst competition for sales.

It might in fact be interesting for someone to start a thread based on the question "Of the Leica bodies you currently own or have owned in the past, how many have you purchased new?" I'll start. I have 4 M's, one IIIa, and a CL. Only two of the six bodies (M2 and M6 HM) were purchased new. I'll bet that's close to the average percentage for those on this, or any other board of Leitz/Leica afficienados.

I would expect Leica to reply with something akin to what Allen posted. Would you expect them to say "No, the M6 TTLs in inventory are the last of them". How would they move that inventory of a model with a lesser amount of features? Certainly not at what they charge now for it.

As we discussed both on and off-line a couple of weeks ago, at best there may be a short run to deplete M6 TTL particular parts inventories, and that only when production has met demand for the new model. After all, when you switch of AE on an M7, you have a M6 TTL.

The purists will find that there is a large market of fully mechanical shutters Leica bodies out there. If they are correct, I fully anticipate them "cornering the market" on them, with the attendant rise in their price. That would be nice, as dumping a couple of my Ms would then serve to finance an M7 and a lens or two.

Best,

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 15, 2002.

Maybe you are right,but it is difficult to not believe such a direct statement.

they are dieing

This is more of a worry....will i have time for a large bottle of something,please say yes.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 15, 2002.

Whether they sell this or that doesn't really matter to me. My Leitz M6 and Elmar-M (of which I am so fond) will far outlast me. But, I expect a flood of used M6 & M6ttl bodies when the M7 finally goes on sale that will eventually undercut the sales of new M6 bodies and, eventually, force Leica to discontinue the M6. I won't be surprised if dealers start to charge a preimum much like some car dealers do.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), March 15, 2002.

Leica bent over backward to build an AE camera that shares most of the same parts (90%+) with the M6TTL - in the process they severely hampered the functionality of the AE camera itself, compared to what it might have been.

The only reason I can imagine for doing this is because they plan to keep the mechanical camera around as well and wanted to hold costs down by using interchangeable parts - swap out a chunk of circuitry for clockwork; change one dial, one on/off switch, and a top plate - and your M7 production line turns back into an M6 production line (or vice versa).

In the past Leica has eventually replaced one MECHANICAL M with its successor - but it's a much bigger step to completely abandon battery- free operation, especially in a line whose sales and reputation have depended in part on that mechanical reliability.

Even in the R line Leica eventually had to restore a mechanical camera at the insistence of the marketplace.

I personally think it is more likely that Leica will introduce an R8.2 or R9 with a mechanical shutter (if they can do it sharing R8 parts - for exactly the same reasons) than that they will have NO mechanical M.

I could be wrong.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 16, 2002.

I don't think the resemblance of the M7 to the M6 is due to Leica's desire to maintain a mechanical camera. I think it's due to manufacturing cutover costs (save on retooling, make use of parts inventory) and marketing considerations (avoid culture shock, like what happened with the M5). Maybe they're also hedging their bets - in case the M7 doesn't receive wide acceptance.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), March 16, 2002.

A couple of weeks ago I posted that I had stopped in to my Leica dealer to view the new M7. At that time he had deposits for nine of them with promises for first delivery either the end of March or the first week or so in April.

This morning he indicated that the new total was nineteen orders and he was beginning to become concerned that those on the tail end of that stream may have to wait awhile.

In the meantime he has two M6 TTLs on hand (black 0.58 and chrome 0.72) that he's had for over two months. He hopes Leica USA will institute rebates on these again.

It might be interesting to hear from others who may have queried their own dealer along this same line. BTW-He notes that he sells about 25-30 M bodies a year normally.

Best,

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 16, 2002.

I would suggest all you dealers with M6s,offer them at cost price.Please post on this newsgroup first.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 16, 2002.

Allen,

Why don't you ask your own dealer for a deal? Surely you must have purchased several new Leica items from him over time have you not?

I can't imagine someone with the professed support and concern over a companies products would not have supported them by purchasing them new.

Care to post a list of your new Leitz/Leica purchases? I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 16, 2002.

Just trying to help out you dealers stuck with old stock,me i am happy with what i have got...a m6.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 16, 2002.

Purchased new: 1950s:IIIf (RDST); 1960s:M2; 1970s:M5; 1980s:50 year CL (NOS) for my 50th birthday; 1990s:M6 and AF-C1. I consider myself a good Leica customer, whether they appreciate it or not.

-- Mitch (bmitch@comcast.net), March 16, 2002.

Allen,

I completely understand your position. What I continue to wonder at is why you keep posting about it.

An electronic shutter and the option to use aperture priority-AE is hardly anything to get your knickers in a twist about. The Leica M6 and M6TTL already contain electronics for the meter and TTL flash metering.

The biggest challenge to Leica's tradition is how the company will deal with the new age of photographers who demand high quality digital cameras that meet with the expectations of a Leica customer, not whether they've improved the Leica M by some small increment or not at the expense of replacing the old mechanical timed shutter with an electronically timed one.

So much ado about nothing.

If you already have an M6 and are satisfied with it, why worry about the M7 at all? Your M6 should last you another 30-40 years.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), March 16, 2002.

Thanks Mitch, but it is Allen's list of Leica items that he would indicate he had purchased new that I was asking for.

I noticed he did not indicate that was the manner in which he got his M6 in his post prior to yours.

Best,

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 16, 2002.

Still waiting for those special deals on the never to be sold m6s.Why will you not sell them at cost price.You can use the money to buy M7s.All those orders you need the capital.You can do yourself a favour and us.Or you are full you of wind,You might frighten some on this newsgruop by insulting ever remark they make..But this a promise you will never bother me.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 16, 2002.

I went in a photo shop to buy some film.He showed me a digital photograph and said ,if you hold it from a distance it is as good as film.Great i said,how much is the camera.Only 5 times as much as a film camera.Is that all i said.When will it be as good film.Does it matter he said, he said you can create any photgraph you want with this.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 16, 2002.

Allen,

Don't wait around for dealers to contact you. Call your own.

I'm sure he would be happy to hear from, and pleased to see you. No customer has probably made him as happy.

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 16, 2002.

This morning he indicated that the new total was nineteen orders and he was beginning to become concerned that those on the tail end of that stream may have to wait awhile.

In the meantime he has two M6 TTLs on hand (black 0.58 and chrome 0.72) that he's had for over two months. He hopes Leica USA will institute rebates on these again.

Come on Jerry lets help him to sell them,better to sell them at cost than sitting there for ever.Leica will at best give him cost.We will give a bit more.Lets face it they could be there for ever.Hope we are not into this manipulation thing....distorting the truth ,for gain or self glorification.Horrible thing the truth...should be banned.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 16, 2002.

This tread goes at the heart of an issue much bigger than individual concerns over the demise ( or not ) of the purely mechanical Leica camera. Generally, I lament the M7s direction, ( I get mine this Tuesday ). Lament not for me personally, I have four M6s which will most certainly outlive me. My concern is that soon there will be no other choice but electronic dependant machines. I'm in marketing, so please allow me to translate the original message from Leica: " We're hedging our bets for now. We're worried that brand loyal consumers may be slow to adopt the M7. Once that hurdle is cleared we can economize and switch all production over to the M7 (already have ). Then the next advancements ( if any ) can be electronic." My point is that the M6 will most certainly go the way of the R6. That is "dissappear". With Nikons' latest move there now are no truely great mechanical SLRs moving into the future. This will not stop photography in any way. Yet it signals the demise of a very specific and personal experience between man and machine. My wishful thoughts are that the next Leica M be the M6.2. Or better yet the M6.4. It astounded me that they left the top shutter speed at 1/1000th, and sinc. at 1/50th. on the M7. Now in order to use my Lux's in bright sun at more open aperatures I'm forced to use ND filters. A faster top speed would have fit perfectly with the Leica Photographic philosopy of user control. Lenses that perform increadibly well at large aperatures are still religated to specific lower light situations, while daylight situations force aperatures where much less expensive lenses can compete. Leica could've murdered the upstart competition by using the strenghts of their fast lenses in more diverse conditions. The kind of photographers that gravitate to Leica would've known that. To me Leica is still a "Vampire" camera. At it's best when the sun goes down. But in bright sun it's still my Hexar and Lux's. A camera that had only one redeeming feature : 1/4000th top shutter speed, with a M mount. I could care less about all the other bells and whistles it features, including AE. M6.4 is a pipe dream I know, but one can dream can't they? --Marc Williams

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.com), March 17, 2002.

Best would be they bring back the M4 - just like it was. They can make it black paint if they want. This would be a seller since it would attract both the real users and the Leica "snobs". While the M7 line will continue have the latest TTL, AE, metering, etc...

-- Russell Brooks (russell@ebrooks.org), March 18, 2002.

Allen, now that you have Leica's assurance you will be able to buy a mechanical shuttered M for ever and a day can you now stop your constant complaints about the M7 so the rest of us who want an aperture priority M can enjoy it in peace!

-- Joel Matherson (joel_2000@hotmail.com), March 18, 2002.

Seems a fair comment.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 18, 2002.

Understand this,i think the M7 is the finest Camera of this type on the market.If i could not buy a M6 or any other manual Leica i would buy it.My beef was that Leica were throwing away their tradition.I felt that by doing so they would just be the same as the rest.Quality would go both in body/lense.A cheaper product just living on a name which would soon be lost among the rest.I still do not like the fact that the m7 cannot be switched to full manual(all shutter speeds).I think this was a mistake,a m6 would then be redundant.However,as was pointed out to me this would be impossible(see posting M7 a mistake) and keep the original design and shape.If my wife decides to take a interest in photography the M7 is the camera i would buy for her.She would have no interest in appts/speed.She would just want to take a photo.She represents the big market place(unfortunatly)and yes Leica will sell many more M7s than M6s.This is my final thoughts on this subject,as many will be pleased about.THE END.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 18, 2002.