The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is Literally and wholly present-body and blood, soul and divinety-under the appearences of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as "unbiblical" but the Bible is forth right in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor.10:16-17,11:23-29; and , most forcefully , John 6:32-71).

The early Church Fathers interpreted these passages litterally. In summarizing the early Fathers teachings on Christ's Real Presence, reowned Protestant historian of the early Church J.N.D. Kelley writes:" Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestingly realist,i.e, the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as , the Savior's body and blood"( Early Christian Doctrines,440).

From the Church's early days, the Fathers refered to Christ's presence in the Eucharist. Kelly writes" Ignatius roundly declares that...[t]he bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup of His blood. Clearly He intends this realism to be taken strictly, for He makes it the basis of His argument against the Docetists denial of the reality of Chris's body... Irenaeus teaches that the bread and wine are realy the Lord's body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more impressive because he produces it quite incidentally while refutting the Gnostic and Docetic rejection of the Lord's real humanity"( ibid,197-98.

God bless.

D.S.

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 21, 2002

Answers

" Hippolytus speaks of the body and blood through which the Church is saved, and Tertullian regularly regularly describes the bread as ' the Lords body'. The converted pagen, he remarks, feeds on the richness of the Lord's body, that is, on the Eucharist. The realism of his theology comes to light in the argument, based on intimate relation on the body and soul, that just as in baptism the body is washed with water so that the soul may be cleaned, so in the Eucharist the flesh feeds upon Christ's body and blood so that the soul may be filled with God. Clearly his assumtion is that the Savior's body and blood are as real as the baptisimal water. Cyprian's attitude is similar. Lapsed Christians who claim communion with out doing pennance, he declares, do violence to His body and blood, a sin more hanious against the Lord with their hands and mouths than when they denied Him. Later He expatiates on the terrifying consequences of profaning the sacrament, and the stories he tells confirm that he took the Real Presence literally (ibid, 211- 12).

God bless.

D.S.

-- D.S. (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 21, 2002.

Moderator, Would you please, make the R a capital in title, in the word Real. And delete this, that I wrote here asking for the change.

God Bless you Moderator.

D.S.

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 21, 2002.

Clement of Alexandria.

" Eat my flesh,{Jesus} says, and drink my blood " The Lord supplies us with thes ultimate nutrients He delivers over His flesh and pours out His Blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of His Children. ( The Instructor of children 1:6;43;3[A.D.191].

D.S.

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 21, 2002.

Irenaeus

" If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirms that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" ( Against Heresies 4;33-32{A.D.189].

" He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be His own blood, from which He causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, He has established as his own body, from which He gives increase unto our bodies. When therefore, the mixed cup[wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift from God, which is eternal life- flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of Him? (ibid,5;2).

God bless.

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 24, 2002.

Origen

" Formely there was baptism in an obscure way... now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was mana for food; now however, in full view, there is true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as He Himself says; ' My flesh is true God, and my blood is true drink ' [John 6;56]" (Homilies on numbers 7;2 [A.D. 248]).

God Bless.

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 26, 2002.

Augustine;

" Christ was carried in His own hands when, refering to His own body, he said, "This is my body" ( Matt. 26:26 ). For he carried that body in his hands " ( Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

" I promise you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's Table... That bread which you see on the altar, having been sactified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice,or rather, what is in that Chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ " ( Sermons 227 [A.D.411]).

" What you see is the bread and the Chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ. This has been very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficent for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction " (ibid., 272).

David S

-- David (asdzxc8176@aol.com), March 28, 2002.

Ignatius of Antioch

" I have no taste for corruptable food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible " ( Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

" Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God.... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are pershing in their disputes " (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2--7:1[A.D. 110]).

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 01, 2002.

Council of Nicaea I

" It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e, priests], whereas neither cannon nor custom permits that they who have no right [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer[it] " Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 01, 2002.

Aphraahat The Persian Sage

" After having spoken thus [ at the Last Supper ], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering of the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink " ( Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 02, 2002.

Ambrose of Milan

" Perhaps you may be saying, 'I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?' It remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use!... Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" ( The Mysteries 9:50,58 [A.D. 390]).

Justin Martyr

" We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is the remission of sins and for regeneration[ i.e, has received baptism ] and is thereby living in Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nutured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus " (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Tertullian

" There is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvaion, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism ], in order that the soul may be cleansed... the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands[ in confirmation ], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feed [ in the Eucharist ] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God " ( The resurecyion of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210 ]).

-- David (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 05, 2002.

Thank you, David, for this post. It is reassuring for us to know that the Early Fahters were unanimous in interpreting the Biblical texts to mean that CHRIST IS PHYSICALLY PRESENT UNDER THE EUCHARISTIC SPECIES. I read somewhere that this unanimity means that the texts are correctly interpreted and that this is the meaning that God intended.

AGNUS DEI QUI TOLLIS PECCATA MUNDI, DONA NOBIS PACEM!!!

LAMB OF GOD, YOU THAT TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, GIVE US PEACE!!

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 07, 2002.

Since coming back to the church after eons in other traditions, I have come to know the Real Presence as the most precious mystery and possession of mine as a Catholic. I wrote a song about it, if anyone wants the sheet music, I'll send it to you.

-- John Dey (jdey@racinelib.lib.wi.us), April 11, 2002.

You're welcome, Enrique. I appreciate nice words, from a Orthodox Catholic like your-self! Thanks , John D, I would be interested, in reading your song. David S

-- David (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 11, 2002.

Cyprian of Carthage

" He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying,'Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord' [Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned-[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threating Lord has been appeased, [and so ] violence is done to His body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The lapsed 15-16[A.D. 251])

Cyril Of Jerusalem

" The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350])

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master's declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ....[Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so,...partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid.,22:6,9).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

" When [Christ] gave the bread he did NOT say, " This is the SYMBOL of my body,' In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did NOT say, " This is the SYMBOL of my blood,' but," This is my blood'; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after his reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord.' We ought.... not regard[the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" ( Catechetical Homilies 5:1[A.D. 405])

-- @ (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 12, 2002.

Council of Ephesus

" We will necessarily add this also. Proclaiming the death, according to the flesh, of the only- begotten Son of God, that is Jesus Christ, confessing his ressurection from the dead, and his assension into heaven, we offer the unbloody sacrifice in the Churches, and so go on to the mystical thanksgiviving, and are sanctified, having received his holy flesh and the precious blood of Christ the Savior of us all. And not as common flessh do we recieve it; God forbid; nor as of man sanctified and associated with the Word according to the unity of worth, or as having a divine indwelling, but as truly the life-giving and very flesh of the Word himself. For he is the life according to his nature as God, and when he became united to his flesh, he made it also to be life-giving" ( Session 1, Letter of Cyril to Nestorius [A.D 431]).

-- David (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 13, 2002.

Top

-- @ (HH@H.COM), July 02, 2002.

David S,

Thanks for this thread. It reminds me of Chris Butler's threads that teach/show Church teachings. I believe many protestants would convert to Catholocism if they read unfiltered writings of the early Church fathers.

God Bless!

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), July 03, 2002.

Thanks, Glenn.

That was a nice compliment from you. I am smilling like a little child :-). Anytime someone says that something I put in this forum reminds them of Chris Butlers work than I know it was something worthwhile. I think the man is a living Saint.

God bless you.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), July 03, 2002.

Ditto......I also think that Chris B. is a living saint!!

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), July 03, 2002.

The absolutely most wonderful experience in my entire life has been experiencing the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Sept 99 - I was at a diocesan retreat in Burns, Oregon. Only 2 months since I had been "born again" in my faith and become on-fire for Christ. Heading down the aisle for Communion, I was thinking "Jesus, did you really start the Catholic Church?" and "Are you really here in Communion?". As I neared the priest, the music and singing from the choir became overwhelming, all of my senses were heightened and focused on the host before me, and huge amazing overwhelming spiraling waves of love washed over and through me. It was as though a little piece of heaven opened up and shone down on me and through me, and it was almost more than my earthly body could physically bear. Somehow I floated back to the pew, knelt and wept uncontrollably throughout the rest of Mass, until everyone had left the building, until I had a chance to visit with the priest (who was blown away and unable to deal with my revelation) and a local Spirit- filled woman who was able to explain this to me a little. I was infused with the complete recognition that YES, HE IS PRESENT body, blood, soul and divinity...that YES, He established the Catholic Church here on earth...that YES, hell is cold and aching and complete separation from God.

I read somewhere that a Jewish man remarked to a Catholic friend that if it really WERE the Messiah, he would be laying flat on the floor in adoration and amazement...and how come most Catholics totally seem to be ignorant and unchanged by the miracle of the Eucharist. It seems that God deals with each person individually, depending on that person's capacity for receiving whatever grace the Lord feels they can handle. Most people apparently have their "pipes" too clogged up with self, anxiety, worries, money, the world, etc. so their capacity to actually RECEIVE the Lord and all His graces is blocked. That would explain why so many Catholics doubt the Real Presence of Christ, let alone why so few actually experience Him. I have NO idea why Jesus made Himself present to me that Mass; I treasure the memory and hide it deep in my heart, to pull out as a reminder of the joy of the Lord which lays before us in heaven. God bless, Cindy

-- Cindy Brown (hughesfeed@netcnct.net), July 03, 2002.

Hi Cindy,

I got goosebumps reading your post. I am enjoying your posts, and I hope to see more, they are quite refreshing.

May God richly bless you,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), July 03, 2002.

Cindy:

I can't speak for Kathy, but I bet, like me, she is green with envy -- as I am!

Thanks for sharing. I weep everytime the Lord's Supper is served at mass. Next year, I hope to receive Him fully!! Oh what blessings, what joy, what unimaginable GLORY!

Gail

P.S. Kathy, I asked the Lord that I might benefit vicariously through watching others partake, and I believe He is answering me! Just a thought for when you attend your first mass.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 03, 2002.

Hi Gail,

Thank you, you have been an inspiration to me!

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), July 03, 2002.

Cindy

It is one of the best experiences of life itself. You have got it all Bless you. Don't ever miss it. To miss the Body and Blood of Christ is pure hell by itself. It is a loneliness I am unable to describe..

Bless you.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), July 03, 2002.

Fred was the last poster here, Kathy. Maybe he needs a prayer tonight. Life is strange, but the Eucharist has been the same since the Last Supper.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), August 01, 2002.

David,

Thanks for pulling up this thread.

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), August 02, 2002.

Check out t his site.

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), August 02, 2002.

Kathy,

I pulled up this thread because it was the easiest way for me to show you something about the Catholic Church being aroung before 315 A.D.

Please scroll up and read the dates of some of our early Church Fathers when speaking on the Real Presence. Like for example, Clement of Alexandria 191 AD.

God bless you

David

-- David (David@excite.com), September 06, 2002.

Thanks David....I remember this thread well!

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 07, 2002.