It is my firm belief that Christians homestead for different reasons than Non-Christians do. I believe that this difference pervaids our attitudes toward homesteading. Opinions?

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), March 21, 2002

Answers

would depend on the reasons, since Im not christian, ,I dont know the reasons christian homestead,, I know why I do

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 21, 2002.

I homestead because it makes sense to me. The challenge of working WITH nature and being close to it is satisfying to me. The security of being somewhat independent is also a motivation.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 22, 2002.

As I've said before, I believe that God has given us the desire for homesteading and since we've been faithful in pursuing it, He has blessed us for it. I also think Christian homesteaders have a deeper appreciation for doing natural stuff that others don't have simply because we're closer to the Creator. Now I know other folks have their gods and their appreciations, but it just isn't the same and can't be the same. This can only come from the knowing and freedom of Jesus. I also think that God is using some of His followers to prepare others for the future and to keep the earth from being any more wasted.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 23, 2002.

arent closer??? that sounds SOOO stupid. Since its my beleif that "my god" is the sky, water, ground and such,, I feel Im VERY close, and you worship an idol that hangs on a wall. OR have to go to a certain place (church) to worship. SO, how can you really believe that your way, is better than mine?

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 23, 2002.

I don't worship any idol that hangs on a wall. You are certainly free to believe whatever you want. I'm speaking from my experience. And the only way to understand that experience is to experience for yourself. It's not head/intellectual knowledge. And you by your own admission haven't done that. But should you decide you want to, let me know and I'll share Jesus with you. It's not too late, you know. And you come just as you are. And Stan, if anything I've written on any of these forums has offended you on a personal level, then I apologize.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 23, 2002.

I agree with you stan. Many "Christians" like to think they have a corner on salvation because they call themselves Christians.

I have NO DOUBT that "Christians" can have a profound peace, the one that surpasses understanding. I also have NO DOUBT that people who wouldn't normally call themselves Christian can have that same peace.

IMO what many fail to understand is the CHRISTOS is a universal spirit, available to all, regardless of religious affiliation, and it is that component of the teachings of Christ that has become distorted by "Christianity". Its a handy "hook" to grow the religion when they get folks to believe that this one, single path is the only one.

A person can be a pagan, Buddhist, Hindu etc and still share in the CHRISTOS.

Cindy has said elsewhere that the peace of a "Christian" is deeper than that of either a non Christian or even another kind of Christian. To me that's an absurd statement.

We can worship the creator by honoring the creation. If a person feels drawn to a more natural way of life, like homesteading, who's to say its not the spirit of God moving them to it, even if they're not "Christian". Does it really matter? I doubt it.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 23, 2002.

Cindy,, nothing you have ever said has offended me in any way,, and even if it did, there is no reason to apologise for expressing your opinion. I was babtised catholic,, and was brought up with it,, but thru every stage I felt it was an absurd and unrealistic idea,, an dfound ALOT of hypacrocy throughout. But to say the christianity is BETTER or more deserving than any other religion,,that gets me. The are other religions that are far older, and others that have more "beleivers",, so they are all wrong?

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 23, 2002.

The Word says, Jesus is speaking, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me"-John 14:6 I think that says it all right there.

Unless you experience it, you can't understand. I've sought out some of those other religions, and absolutely nothing compares to Christianity. A Christian is a person that follows Christ. The Christ that came to earth, died and rose again, walked on earth, then went back to Heaven. He died in our place, He took severe beatings in our place. And you know He didn't have to do it, He could have walked away from it. But He/God loved us so much that He died for us. (And if you knew anything about me at all, you'd know what a miraculous thing that is. You have no idea.)

Every religion has some profound truth, but they don't have Jesus. There's lost of hypocrisy in the 'church' but there's a whole lot more in the world.

Jesus didnt say we wouldn't have trouble, but He did say He would help us through. There's a peace-the peace the Bible says-that passes all understanding. I have felt that peace many times, with such heartaches as would have made me suicidal in the past. I had that strange and wonderful peace, and hope to hold onto, hope in Jesus.

No amount of word manipulation can change it, it's there for the asking.

You can 'make yourself ready for saving, you come just as you are.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 23, 2002.

the koran, words of Bhudda, Satans bible,, all have some referance about ,," FOllow me to your glory,," or some such thing. Just cause its in a book,, makes it true? Jewish beleive that jesus hasnt come yet. are they wrong,, and wont see "heaven"? The "bible" was writing by a man,, and tranlated so many times,, NOONE knows what it's supposed to say.

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 23, 2002.

Stan, my job isn't to convince you, only to present what I know. God will reveal all the truth to you if you ask in sincerety. But if you're looking for reasons not to believe then that's what you'll find. I e-mailed you, but it was returned. Anyway, if you want to discuss this off forum let me know. The way to salvation is narrow, the way of the world is wide and easy.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 23, 2002.

Im not wanitng to be convinced or not convinced. I would like to know, what makes you beleive so much in an outdated idea, beside just saying,, "I beleive". Well,, I beleive alot of things also,, doesnt mean I beleive everyone else will go "to hell", if they dont agree

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 23, 2002.

Stan, Just checked in here again. I'm going to answer you, but not tonight, I have a headache and am a little dizzy. We went out to eat and I probably got some chemical that I shouldn't. Tapitio's is so good. I love Chile Reinnos(sp). Check back in the morning.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 23, 2002.

Stan, I understand your frustration with Catholic doctrine. I am not Catholic because I believe that somewhere along the way they left what the Bible teaches and followed another path. Nevertheless the purpose of this thread was a sincere desire to explore why both Christians and non-christians homestead. I worship the Christ of the Bible. I believe my sin was forgiven the moment I asked him into my life. I confessed my sin when I asked him into my life and he forgave them all, lock, stock, and barrel. I don't confess to a priest, because only Jesus can forgive sin. I don't worship idols on the wall because God said "Thou shalt have no other god before me." Jesus is the only intercessor between man and God. Why do I believe in such an "outdated idea"? I believe in God because he has proved his existence time and time again historically. I believe in God because he lives in my life. I believe in Christ because he was foretold for centuries before his birth and fulfilled thousands of years of prophecy. I believe in God because the bible is the only book that adequately explains the state of humanity. I believe in God because I have seen how he has changed the lives of people around me who know him. I believe in God because this world makes no sense without him. I believe that Jesus Christ was/is God incarnate. I believe he was all God and all man. I believe that God sent his only son because He knew that it was the only solution to man's eternal sin problem. I believe the Bible is true, because when I was seven years old I trusted Christ as my personal Savior. I turned my life over to him and I was never the same. That day something fundamentally changed in my life. God cleaned me up from the inside out and I was freed. Yes I know that there are devout Muslims and Buddhists, and Hindus etc..., But devoutness does not solve the sin problem. Devoutness does not make a person acceptable before God. Ultimately Christianity is the only Religion that answers all the questions. It is the only religion that resolves all the problems. Most importantly it is the only religion that will cause a person to spend eternity with the Creator of the Universe.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), March 23, 2002.

Cindy: You say "The Word says, Jesus is speaking, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me"-John 14:6 I think that says it all right there."

I'd like to suggest, if for no other reason than as a mental exercise, that you replace the name "Jesus" with the "Christ". As I understand it "Christ" means savior or messiah. So it becomes Jesus, the savior or messiah. But it is the savior or the messiah which is the universal component of Jesus, THE Christ.

Jesus was/is a historical person, born of man, just like the rest of us. That being the case He could hardly say "Before Abraham was, I am." or "I am the root and offspring of David." because Jesus was a historical person, a created, physically mortal being. As such EXCLUSIVELY He could not be the universal being He sez he is without the Christos which IS a universal spirit. To me thats the most important aspect of THE Christ---the universality. I don't doubt at all that Jesus was an enlightened master, perhaps an Avatar, but again this does not exclude the fruit of the same identical spirit found in places other than Christianity.

The story of the crucifixion and resurrection is not a Christian exclusive. In fact it was a fairly common myth BEFORE the birth of Jesus. That does not mean however that there is NO literal truth or value to the myth however nor does the term "myth" negate the truths found therein. The "sin-eater" idea goes way back in history, long before the birth of Jesus, as does the death/resurrection idea. Check out the Osiris myth for example--- very similar to the Christ myth.

As messiah or savior we have to look no further than Compassion and Love to find the Christ because compassion and love IS the messiah. So, when you next see random acts of kindness and compassion committed by a pagan, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, understand they are sharing in the singular spirit of the Christos and I am convinced beyond doubt that they are at least as much a "Christian" as many who call themselves that.

I understand that this goes against your own understanding but in fact, from what I can tell, it takes NOTHING away from the teachings of Christ but instead puts them in a more accurate, less exclusive, perspective. You also say; "Unless you experience it, you can't understand. I've sought out some of those other religions, and absolutely nothing compares to Christianity. A Christian is a person that follows Christ."

I'm genuinely happy for you that you have found something that satisfies your soul. Life truly is a case of different strokes for different folks. YOU were unable to find peace in the other religions that you explored, but that only makes them inappropriate for YOU, not necessarily for others.

Again, THE KEY ISSUE is whether one shares in the spirit of compassion and love. If they do, they share in the SPIRIT of the CHRIST.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 23, 2002.

well put John,, because your happy/content with christianity,, why does it make my religion wrong? If I felt that your way was wrong,, then I could tell you,,unless you sacrifice a chciken to the God of the East, once a week,, then you would never receive salvation/go to heaven. That makes no sense to you,, the same as you saying,, Take jesus into your life,,

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 24, 2002.

Stan, I believe what I have stated many times because, His life, death, burial, and resurrection been proven historically, archealogically and by 500 eyewitnesses. I also believe because Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, God Incarnate, has changed my life. He can do the same for you.

John, I've written a few answers for you to your last post, and I just can't push that submit button. And even though you're not going to believe this. God gave me these words for you: " John, quit running from the truth, quit running down the lane, I have a plan for you, I can heal you from your hurts, I love you"

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

that doesnt answer the question Cindy,, what makes my way of beleiving wrong? as to his birth/death/resurection,,, most religions HIGHLY doubt it. They used to crucify criminals ALL the time, so because someone witnessed another low life put to death and buried,, makes a whole new religion? com on. I could post some of your bible quotes on here, that contradict alot fo what your saying. The bible if FULL of contradictions. what makes my way wrong?

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 24, 2002.

I believe that any religion other than Christianity is wrong. I believe that God has put truth in the Holy Bible. There are no contradictions, just people that don't search the subject out, and take verses out of context. You have to understand language usage and the culture for some of the things that seem contradictory. People do this through faith, cause we all don't study Hebrew and Greek. God will give you wisdom and understanding. If you study, you'll see that satan copies what God does.

I do not believe that any particular denomination is 'right'. There are truths in all of them, and untruths in all of them.

If you ask God, the God of the Bible, be completely honest and ask God to reveal Himself to you, He will. He'll show you Himself, maybe not right away, maybe a week or two, but it will be His timing. And it will be perfect. Can you see that He has brought you to this place, with questions? Honest heartfelt questions. He wants to give you those answers, but He'll not force them upon you. No one can make you believe anything, even satan can't, he can deceive you, but it's your choice in the end.

I'm remembering how I felt when I was searching and then running from the truth, all the things that I tried and each one failed, and there was more pain than when I started. How desparate I felt, how I demanded that God reveal Himself, and how surprised I was when He did. God loves you Stan, just as you are, He's waiting with open arms just for you, that's something else I didn't want to believe. I wanted Him all for myself. I finally learned that He has a part of Himself for everybody, and no one can share in that part. I am special to Him, I am unique and so are you. God bless you Stan, and may He give you wisdom and understanding. Please e-mail me or any other Christian if you want to discuss this more.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

I believe that any religion that excludes Jesus from being Lord and Savior is wrong.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

this doesnt seem to be a discussion anymore, only thing you are saying to me,, is, "Im correct and your way of thinking is wrong"," god loves you, just open up". I am open,, and I dont care if god loves me,,I love me,, and thats all that matters,(too me). I think is so egotistical to beleive that ANYONE else that doesnt think like you is wrong,, even though christians are in the minority in the world,nad its a fairly new religion. that means,, by your way of thinking, ,that NOONE went to heaven before jesus was born,, not even his mother, or moses, ,or anyone else mentioned in the bible

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 24, 2002.

God bless you Stan.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

Believe what you will, Stan, but what are you gonna do when you die and find out I'm right? Eternity's a long time to be wrong.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

what are you going to do when you find out YOUR wrong and there is no jesus or heaven,, and you return to earth as an earthworm or fruitfly. Or,,I could alway "repent" at the last min right before I die, and Ill have the same as you. Or,,If ignorance is bliss,, your god wil forgive me and Ill still have the same as you.

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 24, 2002.

I will have led a much better life.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

"better"?? how do you know what kind of life I have led? a "better" by what YOU believe only. By others standards,, you may have led a very sad and sinfull life,, whos to say which is better?

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 24, 2002.

I believe in absolutes

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

too bad religion isnt an absolute,, nor is god,, just Death

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 24, 2002.

Are you absolutely sure about that

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you care to discuss this off forum let me know. If you want to talk about anger or other things let me know. God bless, I've got things to do. Oh, if you like Charlie Daniels music, you might check out his tape/CD Steel Witness, got lots of good lines in it.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 24, 2002.

Im ABSOLUTLY sure Death is an absolute,, and I dont have any CD's

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 24, 2002.

I think Christians live a better life for many reasons.They handle stress and tradegy much better.With the stong beliefs in Christ they can deal with death better , there loved one is with him and safe .They will meet again.They try to live a good life to please him and follow in his footsteps.They do not try to cause harm or pain to others.I am not saying other religions are not good people and of course all so called Christians are not either.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), March 25, 2002.

John, you are talking in circles. Of Course, Jesus is the Christ. He is The Christ foretold thousands of years and prophecies before. The very description you use yourself of "savior" or "Messiah" implies the necessity of Salvation. Jesus wasn't part man/ part God. He was all man/ all God. Born of a virgin who was overshadowed with the Holy Spirit. I understand that you are trying to say that "The Christos" is a part of us all. In other words it is your contention that Jesus was only God in so much as we are God ourselves. This of course goes right back to THE LIE in the garden. " 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

The great lie of all time is that man can somehow be God. Jesus was able to say say "Before Abraham was, I am." or "I am the root and offspring of David.", because he was God himself. The Jews of his day knew exactly what he was saying as they then attempted to kill him.

The problem here is that because you don't want to live the way God calls people to live in his Word, because you don't want give up that much of yourself, because if the bible is true it requires a commitment you are unwilling to make, you would rather chase around from religion to religion taking a piece here and a piece there making up your own as you go. You, John, are the ultimate fence rider!!! I think I respect JOJ more than you because he at least has made a decision. He at least has the guts to say "I just don't believe any of it." John you can spend the rest of your life trying to piece together your version of what you call truth, but the eternal fence is one you can't ride. Ultimately you will either be wrong or right and in the mean time you will stake your eternity on it. I have placed my flag with the Lord Jesus Christ, some others have placed their flag with hinduism, Allah, Joseph Smith etc..., but at least we've all made a decision. However I have seen threads repeatedly where you have claimed Christianity. I have seen threads where you have claimed bhuddism. I understand that you are looking for a truth you can live with, but it is an insult to all the people who devoutly live their faith for you to clam any of them, because from what I've seen you don't agree with anyone. Even so, time and eternity will tell. You have heard the truth on more than one occasion. God knows which side of the fence you are really on even though many of us couldn't tell from day to day. Ultimately you are in the hands of your Creator as I am in the hands of mine. I just pray that the side of the fence you finally fall off on will not give you an eternal consequence you are unprepared for. After all if I am wrong I'll only come back as protoplasm. Psalm 19 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. 12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), March 25, 2002.

WOW<, John said ALL that,,I must have missed something

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 25, 2002.

Wow! I guess I have alot to answer to/for!

Cindy: You say God told you that I should stop running. OK---I'll buy that. I ask "Running? Hmmmm? Maybe.? Running to or from what?" I pay regular visits to the soul searching place within and often ask my self that very question.

Am I running because I question what I've been taught to believe, in spite of what reason, common sense and some ernest, honest, objective study, tells me? Am I running if I refuse to completely ignore certain facts that run counter to prevailing doctrine? Am I running if I choose to attempt to reconcile these undeniable facts with the bible rather than ignore or deny them?

I seek the truth and readily acknowledge that much truth can be found in the bible. And I fully recognize that I'm just as capable of interpretational errors as anyone else. But that said I will continue to attempt to deepen my understanding of these mysteries and will follow that path where ever it takes me and I make no apologies for it---to you, God, Jesus or Satan for that matter.

I've made the argument before that regardless of what any of us might believe and what we "think" the bible means, we have to acknowledge that we may not be correct in our understanding. In no way does this challenge the alleged infallibility of the bible either.

There is a difference between belief and true knowledge. Truth does not run counter to reason. I find its a useful exercise sometimes to examine the question and ask "What do I know?" and "What do I believe?". And if we find that we believe, more than we KNOW, it seems incumbent on us, if we're to maintain even a shred of intellectual integrity, to recognize our own fallibility.

In that sense belief is little more than opinion. Failure to do this has resulted in religious wars for as long as there's been religions. This simple fact of life, that certainly seems undeniable, should give us all pause before we make pronouncements of such import. If it doesn't, we are simultaneously claiming infallibility for our selves, incapable of error. I'm sure you would deny claiming infallibility for yourself, yet your actions demonstrated by some of the statements you've made would seem to belie that.

We can agree that the bible sez this or that. We depart when it comes to interpretation. You will find nowhere in what I've written that I denied the divinity of Christ. I have pointed things out however that are simply true and they lead one to challenge the commonly held "take" on the bible. Your denials or apologetics don't change the facts if they are true, yet you presume to tell me that I'm lost, or hurt, or running, merely because we don't agree in matters of interpretation. That is precisely the attitude thats a major turn of to countless people and why I think of myself as a closet Christian.

Once again we'll agree to disagree. I know you are a sensitive, caring, gentle, sweet, and sometimes wise person but I don't think you're comprehending what's being said.

I've said nothing that takes anything away from Jesus. It only runs counter to prevailing (and IMO, flawed) church doctrine. You are not defending Christ. You are defending manmade doctrine, rooted in human ignorance(original sin IMO), and stemming from the presumption of an infallible understanding, comparable to the papal infallibility doctrine.

Little Bit: You make several good points. For example you say "The very description you use yourself of "savior" or "Messiah" implies the necessity of Salvation."

The hindus too have a triune God. He is called Brahman and consists of Brahma(the creator), Vishnu,(the protector and "savior"), and Shiva,(the destroyer). The protector or savior protects us from ourselves and redeems us upon death. It is the Holy Spirit IMO and manifests itself as love and compassion. Thats tends to have a "saving" effect. Life desires to live and the "savior" endeavors to aid that drive.

We are born in ignorance, live in ignorance, and die maybe a little wiser.

I find it really interesting that the graphic symbol that represents Vishnu, the protector, is a six pointed star---identical to the Star of David. The Hindus use the chakra system to describe how humans are connected to God and the universe. IMO they are the seven seals mentioned in Revelation.

Also fascinating is the fact that the mystical Jews had a comparable system called the Kabbalah and the Star of David shows up in exactly the same place as the chakras.

Each of these come from the mystery teachings from these very old religions.

Of course I talk in circles. (All my life's a circle, sunup to sundown---remember that song?)

"I understand that you are trying to say that "The Christos" is a part of us all."

Correct. The "strength" or power of the Christos within us depends on our own correct understanding and our respective passion and devotion.

"In other words it is your contention that Jesus was only God in so much as we are God ourselves."

Yes and no. Again, its a matter of degree. Jesus does say somewhere in the bible that there will be those who do greater things than he however. That leaves alot of room for speculation.

"This of course goes right back to THE LIE in the garden. " 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." The great lie of all time is that man can somehow be God.

I'll tell you a little story, 100% true as experienced by yours truly. The story is greatly abbreviated but the gist of it is that during a self awakening in the Christian tradition God told me SATAN IS THE FEAR OF LOVE! The ramifications of that are enormous.

God is love. ergo, Satan is the fear of God. God is LIfe. ergo, Satan is the fear of life. Love is unity. God is unity. Fear is division.

The great lie is FEAR and the false things it causes us to believe.

"Jesus was able to say say "Before Abraham was, I am." or "I am the root and offspring of David.", because he was God himself."

I don't disagree with that in a sense. The point I was trying to make is that Jesus, born of woman and a mortal, physical being, could not have said that without having first REALIZED the immortal component also. Jesus fully identified himself with immortal spirit, so he, the physical man, was no more in a sense because all he was aware of was the immortal.

"The problem here is that because you don't want to live the way God calls people to live in his Word, because you don't want give up that much of yourself, because if the bible is true it requires a commitment you are unwilling to make, you would rather chase around from religion to religion taking a piece here and a piece there making up your own as you go."

Here we go with the presumption again. Merely because I challenge your take on things which are VERY subject to individual interpretation and human fallibility, you have concluded I lack commitment.

"John you can spend the rest of your life trying to piece together your version of what you call truth, but the eternal fence is one you can't ride. Ultimately you will either be wrong or right and in the mean time you will stake your eternity on it."

Thats correct and I do so willingly and confidently, knowing the Christos is there to help me along. He knows I'm ignorant, as do I, but also knows I mean well. If I am an errant child, so be it. My loving parent understands my heart better than myself I dare say, and will not condem me for thinking for myself and seeking a deeper understanding.

"I have placed my flag with the Lord Jesus Christ, some others have placed their flag with hinduism, Allah, Joseph Smith etc..., but at least we've all made a decision. However I have seen threads repeatedly where you have claimed Christianity. I have seen threads where you have claimed bhuddism. I understand that you are looking for a truth you can live with, but it is an insult to all the people who devoutly live their faith for you to clam any of them, because from what I've seen you don't agree with anyone."

Yup, yer right there. I'm not required to "stake my flag" to anything other than the truth I understand. And for those who feel insulted because I dare to question or challenge, its more their problem than it is mine.

What I believe Little Bit is that people are errant---all of us. It seems self evident to me. Actually, it seems to be part of our nature. Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims---all subject to error. Does that mean that they don't share some common thread of truth however? Nope, not to me.

"You have heard the truth on more than one occasion."

So have you, but you just keep denying it. Whazzup with that?

"Ultimately you are in the hands of your Creator as I am in the hands of mine."

There's more than one? Last I heard there was only one or is that some new doctrine I haven't hear of?

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 26, 2002.

Peace at all cost? Maybe for you but not me. While I may be sensitive, caring and those other things you mention-some I've, never mind- I will not sell my soul so everyone can go around with dumb smiles on their faces, saying, oh isn't it a lovely world, we can all make it our own way, just how we want it. Tribulation can build character if we don't run away from it. Childhood trauma can help us stand firm if we learn to face it. While not an easy task, committment and definite beliefs are so wonderful, and powerful. Such wonderful gift from Jesus. He gives to us and we can give back(although not on the same level) Manipulating words, besides being so obvious, gets you nowhere in the long run. Agree to disagree, yes, But you won't let it rest. You must spend an awful lot of time, putting words just exactly where you want them. Safety? Yes....Why is it so imperitive that I believe what you want me to? and Little Bit and any other fundamentalist Christian. We present our cause, we answer questions. This is what we're supposed to do. I'm gonna stand firm, I pretty sure Little Bit will too and the other Christian as well. I am not going to throw away all that I have struggle/fought for, I'm am not going to throw it in the face of God. We're as filthy rags, and yet He died for us. Perhaps someday I'll tell you my testimony, then you'll understand why I will not give up Jesus. Cause John you have no idea. What are you running from? I could guess, wouldn't be exact but it's be close enough. None of this is meant in anger. Please acept it for what it is, and please let it be that. I'm not perfect in my faith. But I believe in Jesus and the Holy Bible, and the Holy Spirit. "Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind.
Sight, riches, healing of the mind.
Yea, all I need in Thee I find,
Oh Lamb of God, I come, I come."


-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 26, 2002.

looks like I need to brush up on my paragraph skills.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 26, 2002.

Also John, I didn't read Little Bit's post before I wrote. So I don't know if we said the same thing or not. Jus thought I would clarify that.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 26, 2002.

Fear not Cindy. You didn't replicate Little bits efforts.

You say "Peace at all cost? Maybe for you but not me. While I may be sensitive, caring and those other things you mention-some I've, never mind- I will not sell my soul so everyone can go around with dumb smiles on their faces, saying, oh isn't it a lovely world, we can all make it our own way, just how we want it."

I don't recall asking you to do anything like what you mention there. Once again the presumption is that if a person isn't "your kind of Christian" they're going to hell in a hand basket and you seem to imply that any one who's not your kind of Christian lacks a moral compass and is deficient in "character". You seek to "share Christ" with any who is willing to listen. I seek to share a broader, more reasoned, view of Christ with those who need it.

"Tribulation can build character if we don't run away from it. Childhood trauma can help us stand firm if we learn to face it. While not an easy task, committment and definite beliefs are so wonderful, and powerful."

Agreed.

"Manipulating words, besides being so obvious, gets you nowhere in the long run. Agree to disagree, yes, But you won't let it rest. You must spend an awful lot of time, putting words just exactly where you want them."

Now thats an interesting statement. Manipulating words? or thinking out of the box out loud? Let me ask you this. Even if what I have said is true, what have I said that actually takes anything away from Christ? What have I said that you KNOW is untrue? Do you acknowledge that your "take" on things may not be exactly accurate or do you claim infallibility for your own understanding?

"Safety? Yes....Why is it so imperitive that I believe what you want me to?"

I can readily ask you the same question and for just as good a reason. But to specifically answer your question I ask you to face certain undeniable facts that relate to Christianity and life in general. If you turn your back on these facts and ignore them, they remain true none the less but then you too are closing the door to a greater understanding that is closer, IMO and belief, to the greater Christ. Why that is anathema to you and Christians of your type is beyond my comprehension.

I am NOT asking you to "betray" Jesus, or deny Him in any way. I am asking you to use reason and independent thought when it come to biblical interpretation.

"We present our cause, we answer questions. This is what we're supposed to do."

But its different for me or others who don't agree with ya'll? When I say something you don't agree with, that you think runs counter to what you believe, I don't recall you being shy about sharing your own POV.

"Perhaps someday I'll tell you my testimony, then you'll understand why I will not give up Jesus."

I have not once asked you to "give up Jesus". I wouldn't dream of such a thing. More than once I have readily acknowledged the divinity of Christ and have publically been happy for you and others who have found Jesus. I KNOW the peace, joy, and serenity that can bring to a persons life.

You apparently find my position difficult to comprehend and its obvious that you don't.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 27, 2002.

God Bless you, John.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 27, 2002.

Back atcha and thank you Cindy. He has and I trust He will continue to.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 27, 2002.

I can give you a slightly different take on this. I was not a Christian when I started homesteading. God began to 'speak' to me. It happens every 2 or 3 years. Most Christians try to explain His messages to me, but I take them quite literally. I don't look for any hidden meaning. I keep being reminded of Andrea Yates, but God would not tell anyone to kill. God is good for his word and he already told us 'Thou shalt not kill'. End of discussion. So I know he wouldn't tell me wrong. The last time he told me, 'Cleanliness is next to Godliness'. I've been cleaning my house ever since. Its almost done. It has greatly improved the atmosphere in our house. Everyone is pulling together and I, at least, feel more at peace. I'm now considering being baptised. Have a happy, loving and peaceful Easter.

-- Gayle in KY (gayleannesmith@yahoo.com), March 31, 2002.

Cindy and Little Bit, both of you have graciously spoken the truth in love. The other participants in this dialogue have heard the truth. It is up to God(Jehova),(Agape Father) to work in their hearts or not. It is their choice to make. I would say this to John. There is one interpretation and many applications of every single scripture in the Bible. The Bible is inerrant and God inspired. This goes against this nonsense of Cristos you speak of. There is special warning in the Bible for those who would add to the Bible and I believe you should heed this warning. God is not nature, air, water, clouds space or flowers etc. God is master and creator of all these things. The main difference between your truth and mine is what Little Bit has already covered and covered well. You are more a student of comparative religion than a believer of any! You parlais well on this subject, but your knowledge and education will not save you on judgement day. On that day every knee shall bend every tongue confess. You sir are still searching, and I will be praying that the One True God reveal himself to you. If he does not then I am sure that you shall continue to lean on your own understanding.

Respectfully,

PoePoe

-- PoePoe (rpd932@yahoo.com), March 31, 2002.

PoePoe: You display a fair amount of ignorance yourself. Do your homework and then talk to me about the Christos. Typical of "in-the- box" Christians, you shun the use of reason and ignore whats plainly in front of you to "defend" your idea of what faith is. I'm not worried about judgement day but you should be.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), March 31, 2002.

Interesting. At least this thread was civil. Although I still don't know why anyone here homesteads.

Me I homestead to be more self-reliant, I like to tinker and it keeps me away from all those !@#$%^&*(#* townies.

What do I believe? WEll that wasn't the question. :o)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), March 31, 2002.

I homestead because I feel it is the best way for me to protect my part of this world. I use no chemicals/pesticides/antibiotics in the raising of my animals or vegetables. We don't as a family use prescription drugs choosing to use herbs,etc. I haven't seen a doctor since 1997!! Homesteading is just a way for me to always be close to the natural cycle of life. Birth,Death,Rebirth Living close to the land is my way of paying respect to Mother Earth and all the gifts I've received. I try to live in harmony with nature, 'treading lightly'. My beliefs are non-christian although I was baptised catholic, and as an adult joined the Nazarene church. After much soul searching I found that most of my christian friends & aquaintances didn't seem to have true faith in their beliefs although they professed to believe they were all so very afraid of dying-a natural part of the cycle of life to me. It was only after almost dying myself that I came to realize that although I attended church my beliefs we not in accordance with christianity. I respect the christian believers, I just ask for the same right to worship my deities without someone trying to convert me to their beliefs. I don't think most true christians would convert to another faith just because they were given 'the truth'by someone of a different faith, so why would they expect me to change my faith based on their beliefs? I feel that is what this country was founded on- religious freedom, the ability to have your individual beliefs without repercussions. respectfully,kathy

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), March 31, 2002.

And so we each stand on our side of the fence and see who can throw the biggest rock. Why not agree to disagree and each of us get on with his/her own life.

-- (ajkc2fli@localnet.com), April 01, 2002.

Sorry,I forgot to include my name.

-- Arnold (ajkc2fli@localnet.com), April 01, 2002.

Kathy that was VERY well put

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), April 02, 2002.

Hello LBF,

It seems like that we are reheating the same hash that you opened back in September about Christians and non-christians. My answers is still the same as it was then. If you do not remember my answer...then go to your archives under faith and re read it.

Sincerely,

Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), April 04, 2002.

My father in law thinks pretty much like John - his stairway to heaven is one he is building with his powers of reasoning. He believes that is all any of us have. He also feels comfortable in his equanimity and his openess to all thoughts. After all, thats calming, fair and reasonable. Its also a functional approach to life. Its an approach shared with scientific and philosophical inquiry that, as a scientist, I utilize and have respect for (for which I have respect - grammarians!). I have a kindrid spirit in this.

John is an interesting read because he likes to think, is articulate, and will spend the time to parse out the words and thought. My father in law is sincere in this method as I believe John is too. John is much better than my father in law in that he reads more and keeps his facts straighter.

But when we seek to approach God (that God revealed in the Bible and spriritually) via this method we worship our own talent, we adulate ourselves. Its really just ego trying to subject God to our own reason - Satan's problem. Its just a pride-centered intelletual ziggurat of an individual design. God (again speaking of the God as revealed in the Bible and as is testified to us by the Spirit) really spoke against this approach to knowing Him (re Job and Psalms). Paul, with credentials and reasoning a yard long said he considered them nothing but a loss. To the thinking-involved Greeks Paul said he limited himself to preaching the simple news of Jesus. Jesus thanked his Father that knowlege of Him was not to be achived through human intellect but through what would seem foolishness to those who could not open hearts to God. Poor Solomon, the wisest man who ever was or would be (fide the Bible) never did get it. But he wrote a beautiful and poignant description of the misery, failure and ultimate emptiness of human reason in Ecclesiates. I read that Einstein, on his deathbed, wiled away his las moments solving simple mathmatical equations.

I don't pretend to know John except through the internet and I don't mean this as a caricature. Plus he has got a "beautiful mind" God- given. The opposite of personal atagonism is intended. We can't get to God, he came to us already through his Son. Receive the Son, receive the Father.

-- charles (cr@dixienet.com), April 05, 2002.

Charles: Beautiful post. Thanks for the thotful reply.

There's alot there to address so I'm hoping Little Bit won't mind if I copy and paste it to a new thread because this ones about to drop off the page.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), April 05, 2002.

John, Me thinks you search too much. The God of the Bible can help you with that. Let me know if the christos or whatever reveals itself to you. Meanwhile you pray or meditate or whatever one would do to communicate with the cristos, pray the christos will reveal itself to me. As for now I'll keep believing in the saving power of God through his son Jesus Christ!

PoePoe

-- PoePoe (rpd932@yahoo.com), April 05, 2002.

PoePoe, you may be right about me searching too much but I search because I enjoy it, not because I have to. The Christ(os) does not object to my thinking for myself and has not abandoned me because of it, nor have I abandoned it/Him.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), April 07, 2002.

Homesteading: I think that people homestead for a variety of reasons: 1. to be more self sufficient; 2. to be prepared for the coming storm; 3. to experience countrylife; 4. to have the satisfaction of growing good things to eat; 5. it brings oneself closer to the power/forces of nature. I think that this would be common betwixt both parties in question. So I think that the difference as this discussion has produced is spirituality. I think that the nature of one's spirit is what makes the difference between the two; or does it make it similar? So to add my humble opionions to the the discourse: I know christians who homestead and they are not kind people, mean & nasty and go to church every sunday, sing the songs, teach the bible and say amen at the right time. And I know some homesteading christians who are very kind and generous. I can say the same for non christians as well, some are nasty and some are kind. So who is to say what the prevailing influence is between the two. We homestead because we homestead, we give thanks to God for the blessings that we have, it is hard work and it is a burden at times to do the hard work. It is beautiful to lok outside the weindow and see the land. (see above 5 reasons) As for the spiritual part: I am not a christian, (am called by the churched as a pagan at times); I do believe however that Jesus is indeed the Creator made manifest to the created in a physical body, and I do believe that he is coming once more. Maybe I can be classified as a Christo-pagan. I do not go to church anymore, I refuse to classify myself with the nastiness that is amongst the churched. To be a christian is to be Christ-Like, not simply a believer in christ. The early believers were refered to as believer's of the way (Acts), and also they were so much like christ that they (the nonbelievers) began to call them christians (also in acts). Believing in christ doesn't make one a christian, it makes one a disciple of Jesus and a believer of the Way. And when one's life exemplifies Christ then one should be called by the nonbelievers "christian". it is not a title that is self proclaimed, nor should it be, it is an identifier of practicing what you believe and revealing whom you serve; placed upon you by those whom see Jesus in you. MHO (OK MNSHO - MyNotSoHumbleOpinion.)

john, Christos means anointed one in the greek language, messiah by implication via the hebrew language. Many can claim to be anointed, but then only one can claim to be Jesus (Yeshua) the Anointed One (H'Masiach)(I think I mispelled that, my hebrew appeares to be a bit rusty). IMHO, the christ spirit would be available to any who asked for it. I would think that anyone who wanted to be like christ would be given a measure of His spirit to help actualize that reality. Being created in the image of God would give credence to the idea that we are a reflection of the divine and can be filled with that divine spirit, usually refered to as the Holy Spirit, which reveals Jesus to us and manifests that same spirit in us. I am guessing that the term you are seeking would be in essence the divine expression, which would be Logos. Respectfully submitted. Have a good day full of blessings.

-- Jonathan (jonathan_sz@yahoo.com), April 08, 2002.