I've been looking at M3 prices (just for fun) and notice that they seem to go for over $500 to over $1000, and this is basically for a fifty year old camera. There's also been a couple of threads about the M5 and the fact that it uses mercury batteries. My question about the M7 is this, how long will batteries be available. Certainly no one can anticipate batteries being available 50 years from now. Has Leica made any plans for this or does the M7 have built in obsolesce? The more I think about it, the better my Leitz M6 looks to me.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), March 27, 2002

Answers

Gentlemen: I tried to tell you all this in early February. The M7 is destined to be a short production camera. Leica secretly wasted millions on development just so they could dump it and bring out the real new M camera, the M8. This is so they can keep the M line and the R line in synch.

-- fred (fred@email.com), March 27, 2002.

I never thought that there would be a more absurd question than, "what camera strap should I use," or "should I get a chrome or a black camera." But here it is!

-- Mitch Alland (malland@mac.com), March 27, 2002.

Does the M7 use some sort of odd sized battery that is hard to find? I surely thought they needed to get 1/2000 second into any new M camera. As for shutter times over 1 second, those are easily estimated when using cable release. What I am waiting to see on this forum is if the new shutters are more accurate than the old, mechanical ones. As for mechanical speeds, I would have liked a mechanical 1/1000 setting. I'd have liked a higher flash sync speed. If I had an M6TTL, I'd hardly run right out to get the new M7.

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), March 27, 2002.

Man I would hate to be Leica. A few years back when Konica brought out the Hexar RF, even on this site every day there was at least one thread along the lines of "wow, look what Konica has done - given us the camera Leica should have. Oh, how can Leica be so cruel as to continue on with the dated M6". So what does Leica do? Take the advice of all the whiners complaining about how much better value the Hexar is. Now every day is the continual "oh boo-hoo, how can Leica have abandoned there manual roots and given us a camera with a battery". Ya gotta wonder!

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), March 27, 2002.

Glenn, I just hope you are not sharing your thoughts on batteries with with heart patients with pacemakers!

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), March 27, 2002.

What does it use? LR44, A76...? If so, so many products currently use this very battery and they are even not cameras. And on top of that it is a Silver Oxide battery, not likely to become a toxic waste issue (unless the EPA or the EEC equivalent says otherwise). Film will probably not be an issue in that time frame anyway, I know I probably won't as a human...

-- Dave Doyle (dave@soilsouth.com), March 27, 2002.

Uh....Glenn. In case you hadn't noticed, your M6 uses batteries also.

I suspect that batteries to power it for full servicability (and the M7, and the M5, and the CL, and the Leicaflex, and the SLs, and all the Rs) will be around past the time when film is no longer available.

On the off chance that no batteries are made anymore, and film still is, I would expect someone to develope a current generating cell powered by light to slip into hot shoe to power the camera. Sensitive enough of course to be used with a Noctilux at f/1.0.

If batteries still concern you, Leitz/Leica produced approximately 1.5 million bodies that require no current of any kind. As you noted, there are still a lot of them around today. The most inexpensive of them selling for more than at least 90% of the 35mm film cameras made today.

Jeez... the number of people concerned with an electronic shutter make me shudder.

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 27, 2002.

Why so much criticism over the M7? I think Leica did a nice job. The pros will find it fast. The amateurs like myself will enjoy the nice little differances. Why all the fuss? I think we should all including myself do more shooting instead of posting and answering these pointless threads.

-- John Abela (jamriman@yahoo.com), March 27, 2002.

You M6 uses one of the same batteries so you're SOL too. How could you buy such a piece of crap?

sheesh.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), March 27, 2002.

Now I know my body uses batteries for the exposure meter, but, and this is a really big BUT, NOT THE SHUTTER. If, and when, the batteries become obsolete, I can always use an external meter. All I'm asking, is did Leica think of this. And do you think shooters will be using M7's fifty years from now, like todays shooters are using the M3? In fact, I bet the M3 will still be around in another fifty years. There are people out there, using older cameras that took mercury batteries and now use external meters with them.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), March 27, 2002.

All cameras have built in obsolescence even all mechanical.Try and get a clutch assey for a M3 DS it seems thet cameras that rely on electronics are built with a great deal shorter life expectancy then others. My close friend is having fits with his $4000+ not even three year old D1 the repair cost is estimated so high it is a waste of money to fix it. However out of the goodness of Nikons heart they are willing to give him a $500 trade up for it on a new D1X. Thats why when I see someone wishing for a digital M I wonder if they even have a clue. You could not get me to trade a old beater M-4P for one. At least in five years it will take a photo. Want a hard sell try and get someone to give you $100 for a computer with a 286-20processor in it. GOOD LUCK! Japanese camera companys have found the holy grail and it is. The replacement for the newest, fastest, and best, is on the drawind board and its replacement is in the final stages of planning. Pro's yes! They have to stay ahead of the curve in order to make a living.The only thing that I see digital as excelling at in amateur photography is instantaneous gratification. Also the ability to let someone who could not get published if they owned the magazine to do themselves. SO much for todays rant tune in next week for the continuous saga of crusty old fart.

-- Alfred Henry (J Henry@provide.net), March 27, 2002.

But Glenn - without batteries how will you run your hand-held meter?

Better run out now and pick up a Sekonic L28c2 (or the equivalent) selenium meter while they're still around.

Solar-powered photography - THAT'S the wave of the future...8^)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 27, 2002.

Can we delete this question? The PX76 or LR44 or VX76 battery has been around for years. And will be around I'm sure for my lifetime. Look how many cameras use this battery, or other electronic gear.

-- chris a williams (LeicaChris@worldnet.att.net), March 27, 2002.

Not to worry. I've already replaced the battery in my M6 TTL with a connection to a power converter that connects to my Web-enabled cell phone. The cell phone links to this forum, and the unit converts the static generated here into DC. (lol)

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), March 28, 2002.

Glenn - I have a Weston Master V Meter, recently overhauled and recalibrated, that I'l be willing to sell you. Bring large denomitation bils in a wheelbarrow, please.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), March 28, 2002.

I'm with Mitch. I've never seen such a silly thread on this Leica forum. Fortunately Leica did not ask your advice when designing the M7. They had better sense.

Do you people live in a cave or something? :-)

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 28, 2002.

An M6 without battery = M4 (better still with self-timer!). Better stock up M4 now! :-)

-- Greg (greg_choong@yahoo.com), March 28, 2002.

Hasselblad EL uses obsolete battery. And there is an adapter that lets you use modern ones. Same with old Minoxes and some Gossen meters.

There are so many (so expensive) Leica's around that someone will sure make an adapter if the current battery is not available. And besides, you can use both silver and lithium batteries in M6 and M7's so there is more obsolence proof already built in than with most other cameras.

It's not the battery, it's the voltage. You can even yourself wire up two AA cells to an M6 (and 4 to M7) and it works.

Ilkka

-- Ilkka Kuusisto (ikuu65@hotmail.com), March 28, 2002.

If Leica had kept to their tradition ,by offering a full manual mode,they they would have satisfied both worlds(maybe).Maybe they will do this on the M8.It is clear many users are not happy with just two shuuter speeds.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 28, 2002.

Hi all

I think the only valuable new question brought by this thread is this one :

John Abela: >> Why so much criticism over the M7?… <<

The answer is simple: it is a compromise and too much of a compromise. It doesn’t satisfy the conservative strictly all mechanical, shy of being dependent on a battery (or two)people. It doesn’t satisfy those who would have preferred Leica to jump readily into all the advantages the electronic would have been able to bring into the new model (while respecting the original concept). This controversy has nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities (or shortcomings) of the new body.

As to wonder if an M7 will still be able to work 50 years from now because the battery used in it won’t be available anymore and call it “built in obsolescence”…

I don’t care because:

I will be 97, if I’m still alive and will probably shake too much to take a picture anymore if so.

I have much more doubts about the availability of 35 mm films (and generally silver halide film whatever the format) within the next 50 years than I have about the existence of compatible (if not exactly the same in chemical formula) batteries.

Now, any technological product has anyway built-in obsolescence. And the M7 doesn’t escape miraculously to that rule.

About obsolescence I’m much more concerned when it goes to the M7 body (and considering its price) by many other points:

This body is unsuitable for a future conversion to digital photography (not the present one which will progress each year until it reaches the definition of a silver halide film, but the next REAL generation of full format sensors which will be systematically equivalent or better than film). The cause being Leica still sticks to the awkward loading procedure of the M series instead of having an interchangeable hinged back.

Whatever is the instillation of electronic in the body it still retains in fact the low performance shutter of the mechanical bodies not that much in not providing an astounding 1/4000th of a second top speed but in keeping the very low synchronization speed of 1/50th (high speed sync with a special Metz unit is NOT EVEN TTL remember). Which still makes the body unable to be easily used in fill in mode.

AE + AE lock modes are AE modes coming from the past only marginally improving speedy work and this for a body twice the price of an Hexar RF already having the same metering system. Where are the matrix in auto mode and a real spot meter in manual mode ?

It would probably have been rather easy, if the new body had attempted a much needed major redesign to incorporate all what it actually missed, to pack in it a variable magnification viewfinder with at least the three positions provided by the three different versions of the body which are released now. Thus simplifying the production process in concentrating on a unique model.

This is where is the really important built-in obsolescence… And in my humble opinion it is a dangerous threat to the very existence of the M series as a whole in a near future.

Leica where is the spirit of Barnack there ? When Leica was the symbol not only of quality but also of advance in technology and not the flagship of conservatism in Photography ?…

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 28, 2002.

Leica is about to be 50 years ahead again within the next year. The Leica miniature fusion unit(currently on final trials)fits the battery compartment. Focusing and exposure are controlled by the creative composition element (CCE) of the atificial imagination (this is fitted to the present take up spool area). Forget film -the compartment takes a plug in holograph generator outputting all sensate stimulii and superceeding photoshop, paper, screens etc. Upgrades will be available for all LTM & M cameras. And you heard it on this silly thread first.

-- Tim Gee (twg@optushome.com.au), March 28, 2002.

Enough of this new-fangled, battery-dependent technology! It's all right for lesser brands but Leica is special and shouldn't follow the herd. The replacement of film by digital seems to be inevitable, though, and I guess Leica will have no choice but to produce cameras that can use it. However, I sincerely hope that Leica's future digital M and/or R cameras will be 100% MECHANICAL. ;-)

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 28, 2002.

And you heard it on this silly thread first.

I do not understand why individuals who find a thread not to their liking feel the need to make sarcastic comments.Why not just move on to what you like.Unless it is a bit of fun banter...yes okay.Regards Allen.

Francios

Once upon a time Leica produced a camera which was the cutting edge of technology.It worked well,and is still working well.Why change for the sake of the latest fashions.You can argue that by not having ultra zooma,3d matrix,auto everything you might miss that great shot.This maybe true of the photo journ but for the rest of us it not relevent.Out of interest most reports i have read on photo journ is that they use their auto(butt wipers)everthing on manual mode anyway.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 28, 2002.

Just a bit of "fun banter" at the end of a long serious day Allen. No sarcasm intended. Cheers.

-- Tim Gee (twg@optushome.com.au), March 28, 2002.

One has to wonder how in the hell all those wonderful photos from the 30s, 40s, on through time, ever got shot. Those great photographers were so crippled by the equipment they had to use, that it's flabbergasting anything turned out. Frankly, photography has technically advanced like a rocket sled, while the end results haven't seemed to keep pace. I purchased an M7. I like it. But it doesn't make me a better photographer. Maybe a bit lazy perhaps, but not better. So, I'm not about to sell my M6s. In fact, I'm sorry I ever sold my M3 and M4. The battery issue is of little concern. The soaking I take in the pro digital horse race makes that concern a walk in the park by compairson. Besides, by the time film and/or battery obsolesce is an issue, I'll be photographing angels. Which reminds me, I've got to stipulate in my will that I be buried with a Leica. A mechanical one please, God only knows if they've got batteries up there. Sincerely,--Marc Williams

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), March 28, 2002.

Marc

Are you sure it will be Angels,just a thought.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 28, 2002.

"most reports i have read on photo journ is that they use their auto (butt wipers)everthing on manual mode anyway." (Allen's quote from above) - Allen: to complain about others being sarcastic, and then make a statement like the above (after all for years the Leica was THE photojournalists camera), really causes me to wonder about your intentions.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), March 28, 2002.

Um..... if the M6 & M7 is using the most popular and widely available photo/calculator battery there is, what the hell do you expect them to use then? Go back to inacurate selinium cells again? Geez what an obsurd topic this is!

-- Joel Matherson (joel_2000@hotmail.com), March 28, 2002.

How about a solar panel top plate for the M8 that doesnt require batteries, but then again, that wont work for you available light photographers! :), or hey what the hell lets start making the M3 as the new M8!

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), March 28, 2002.

Bob

It was meant to be a bit of humour,perhaps it did not work.I am sure i will be taking photos of something other than Angels.Regards Allen

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 28, 2002.

Enough of this new-fangled, battery-dependent technology! It's all right for lesser brands but Leica is special and shouldn't follow the herd.

SHHhhhhh...don't tell anyone, but one of the lesser brands has a body available that can use it's a full range of shutter speeds...up to 1/4000 even if the battery dies...I believe it's called the FM..something or other. The bad part...it makes so much noise you can hear it at a rock concert, and the mirror vibration is so bad you can forget about ever getting a sharp picture.

Oh...and the lenses suck. But you don't need a battery.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), March 28, 2002.

it makes so much noise you can hear it at a rock concert, and the mirror vibration is so bad you can forget about ever getting a sharp picture.

Oh...and the lenses suck. But you don't need a battery.

Okay Jim,you win,i agree.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 28, 2002.