I have two very nice alpine does - Daisy and Gracie. they are quite different and so we needed the service of two bucks in order to see improvement. The girls are sisters, sharing the same father but different mothers. Each had very nice buck kids. my question is, can i use daisy's buckling to breed gracie, and gracie's to breed daisy? i don't know all the particulars on inbreeding and i know some people do and some don't, but are they to closely related for me to do that? If they are and it's not a good idea then i will probably breed them to my nubian buck bec it cost us a fortune getting these two girls bred to nice bucks and hubby said not again! has anyone ever crossed alpine and nubian? were you pleased with the results?

-- Don and Susan (dsowen@tds.net), April 02, 2002

Answers

What improvements were you looking for? Is there nobody in your area you could perhaps trade bucks with? If your only choices truly are their half brothers, or the Nubian buck, than use the Nubian buck. I have seen beautiful Togg/Nubians, tremendous size and milk ability, but then the bloodlines of both the Togg and Nubians were excellent to start with. The one thing not even seeing your animals that you will get with the breeding of your Nubian buck to your Alpine doelings is hybrid vigor, which is always a plus. How about buying a young buckling from a diary (unrelated from you) and growing him out to use this winter and for use next year, this will give you somebody to breed both Daisy and Gracie and any of thier kids from the Nubian buck. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (Nubians) (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 02, 2002.

Alpine and nubian make great crosses. That's all we have. My husband likes the nubians for personality and color. I like the gracefull look and the durability of Alpine udders under natural kid raising. So instead of trying to keep two breeds seperate at breeding time we just change which breed of buck we use every couple of years. It makes for a wide variety of colors with plenty of milk and udders that hold up.

-- cindy frazee (cindy@tctc.com), April 02, 2002.

You would be doing a pretty close breeding by using the bucklings on your does, and could end up bringing out either the good or the bad. I agree with Vicky, if that is your only option breed to the Nubian. Breeding fees around her for registered stock is $35 - $40, sometimes less if you don't want the service memo. Even two breedings is less money than it would cost to house and feed one buck for a year. I believe I saw that it usually costs close to $200 to care for a goat for a year (and that must not be any vet costs!). So, typically to pay for keeping a buck you would need 5 does to breed to him, of course sometimes it is just more convenient.

-- Leslie in W. WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), April 02, 2002.

What do you know about the sire of Daisy and Gracie? Was he a good buck? Was he inbred or linebred himself, or was he from unrelated bloodlines on his sire and dam's side? If he was not inbred, and he was of decent quality, a buck to be proud of, then I would breed the two bucklings to their aunts, they are somewhat related, but not really closely, because you see, with the dams being only half sisters, the buck kids are not really full nephews.

But if the buck had serious, glaring faults, and both daughters show those faults, then I'd save and pinch pennies to pay for the breeding fee to a good Alpine buck. I can't really see any point in breeding them to a Nubian buck, other than just to freshen the does. And since it costs so much to feed those does while they are pregnant, you might as well have kids that are worth what they cost you to be born and raised. Some people like the Nubian Alpine crosses, but really, think about it. On one side you have a breed that is high in butterfat, and often rather vocal. The other parent is very productive, lower butterfat (usually but not always), and has a reputation for being assertive and sometimes aggressive, and very smart. The product could be a good productive goat, with good butterfat, but what about the personality? I can see it now, a mean, mouthy, pushy doe- not the kind I want to deal with day in and day out!! I am aying this tongue in cheek, so don't be too offended. ;-)

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 02, 2002.

Reading Rebekkah's post it got me to thinking also. Mean, bossy, definently a biter, and with them airplane ears? Belay what I wrote! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (Nubians) (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 02, 2002.

pay no attention to vicki, obviously she has spent too much time in the barn today :) ;)

by all means if its cost, breed the bucklings to thier aunts... but here is a question to you... have you been milking these girls in 300 day cycles?, have you tried a longer cycle?, you must run out of milkin early winter, or have you staggered breedings?? personaly am a big fan of not having all my does kid in two or three weeks, spread out in two crops over 3 months is much better....

breed one goat in october , and hold off till december on the other lady, and your milk supply will be steadier....

-- Beth Van Stiphout,in ND (willosnake@hotmail.com), April 02, 2002.

Oh Vicki........too funny. In all honesty, my most favorite doe for many years was old Thumper. She was an alpine-nubian cross with the airplane ears and an attitude!!! She didn't bite but we called her Thumper cause she stomped her feet in warning and charged anything the size of a dog, including children. I had to shut her up after my grandkids got old enough to visit, cause she was my lead doe and was in no way going to allow children in the goat yard. She's buryed out back after many years of wonderful service, lots of good milk and truly a loyal friend. I still miss her. That said, I would still go with finding a good alpine buck for, as Rebekah said, why not have something to sell when you have your kids.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), April 02, 2002.

i love all the different opinions, i learn so much:)

-- Don and Susan (dsowen@tds.netS), April 02, 2002.

well i was looking over daisy's pedigree and i have decided not to breed them to thier half nephews. Daisy's father is also her mother's father! if i lived where stud fee was 35.00 i wouldn't own a buck! it cost us 250.00 to have these two does bred, what with the stud fee and the cost of keeping them for a month. i will look for someone to swap bucks as vicki suggested or just sell the alpines as they are very nasty to the other goats. thanks for all the advice, oh and yes i ran out of milk last year about october bec i had them all bred at the same time (very dumb) but this year i have a buck and willbe able to stagger them so i'll try to have milk year round' and not so much stress at once in the barn

-- Don and Susan (dsowen@tds.net), April 03, 2002.

since you said they have nasty attitudes toward the other goats, i'd get rid of them-they pass those attitudes on sometimes and who needs a whole lot of bad attitudes floating around from animals-humans give us enough bad attitude. i had a nubian doe (my daughters, actually) that hated me-stomped, kicked the pail after i was almost done (she knew) and ran from me-loved everyone else in the house. it was a major personality conflict (i give all health care, do all things to and for them, just about-could that have something to do with it?) so we sold her to some people who just love her to pieces. If the DD had milked her (she (DD) was 7 at the time) i'd have thought about keeping her, but it wasn't worth the stress to me so off she went and dd got half the $$ because that's the deal we have going with the kids. bad attitudes don't stay around my farm.

-- laura (okgoatgal@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

Don and Susan- in that case, no you don't want to inbreed. The service fee would be much less expensive if you take them to the buck on the day they come into heat, and take them home again the same day.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 03, 2002.

but i'm never sure if they are in heat or not! guess i haven't had them ong enuff, two years is all. and sometimes they get bred and come into heat again in five days. why is that? did the eggs not drop? if they come in again after being bred, does that mean they are not pregnant?

-- Don and Susan (dsowen@tds.net), April 04, 2002.

My does do that too. They were in heat both times, what is happening is that are ovulating twice and will conceive on both heats. Most sets of quads are from does who have come into heat twice about a week apart like this- my does have triplets- have you ever noticed that often two of the quads or one of the triplets will be smaller than the others? It's because they are actually a few days younger and slightly premature, if the doe kidded by the first breeding date.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 04, 2002.