This question/observation may take the heat off of Allen for awhile, ( I've donned my Nomex suit before asking it, so flame away everyone). It appears to me that there are some mighty insulting attitudes at play on this forum, (maybe even this posting could be considered an example). The forum is made up of people at all levels of talent and experience. Those on their high horse deride the efforts of those less polished and slick on a fairly regular basis. I've even read such terms as "Duffers and dilletantes", or a basis of credibility rooted only in "show us the photo's to back up your big mouth". I wonder if it's because this Leica stuff cost so much that the elevated talents feel it should only be the domain of the self-appointed greater gods of shutterdom? Frankly, ( here comes the incendiary opinion), I prefer seeing the innocent, wobbly legged efforts of the amateur duffers and whatnots. Admittedly, I may feel that way because I'm bombarded by solicitations from some of the world's best photographers in my job. Perhaps, the more experienced talents here chould be an inspiration to those less involved, without deriding their efforts. On the other hand, the value of the week-end shooter, is their very innocent, personal take on things. It's such a relief from some of the work worshipped here just because it is technically proficient, or has a beautiful professional model in it. Actually, I like all of it, its just that the better work isn't enough justification for mounting that high horse, ( you know, like the one I'm riding right now). Just a thought about trying to be less one up manship about it all. I want to learn from everyone, without being insulted in the process. I'd hazard a guess that others may feel the same way. But, then again I could be wrong. Maybe this is a gathering of S&M souls that just happen to own a Leica. Your thoughts?

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), April 06, 2002

Answers

I think you've got a good point. Part of the problem though is that, recently, several of those with a "very innocent, personal take on things" express themselves by insulting everyone & anything as they state their opinions. It's sort of a take no hostages attitude. Makes rational discourse difficult. But perhaps these recent exchanges can sober us all up 'cause the after taste is always a bit bitter, regardless of which side you fall on...

-- Patrick (pg@patrickgarner.com), April 06, 2002.

My thoughts? I'm not permitted to have toughts,in fact this wiil no doubt be deleted before you've even had chance to read it.

Users of this site don't care about thoughts,just gear and gear.

-- Phil the Great (philkneen@manx.net), April 06, 2002.

Well said, Marc. I hope that all members of the forum read this thread. It never hurts being civil and understanding of our colleagues.

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), April 06, 2002.

Brave man Marc. You make some very valid points that should have been brought up eons ago (forgive our complacency). It takes a lot of courage to stand up on that podium and sermonize the way your doing. One thing though...

Watch out for snipers!!!!

;-)

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), April 06, 2002.

I have been using this forum for the last eight months as a tool to decide what camera to buy. (I love to research before I buy, especially the expensive stuff). A year ago, I didn't know what a Leica was, but I have decided that this camera seems to bring out more passion than any other camera I have read about. I am a very amateur photographer and a college student (well, I graduated last week), and I think this forum is great, but only if read with a grain of salt. There is an enormous wealth of knowledge to be shared by those who use this forum, but it is quite clear that many people are simply not polite. There have been a couple of times when I thought that I didn't want to enter the "Leica community" based on what I have read here, but that is nonsense. There are plenty of people who use this forum to kindly help others and share great ideas. It takes all kinds. . . I ordered an M6TTL w/ a 50 Cron today. I'll post some picks soon.

-- Cedar Grice (cgrice@gladstone.uoregon.edu), April 06, 2002.

...the value of the week-end shooter, is their very innocent, personal take on things...

Unpretentious sincerity in an image does much more for me than technical proficiency. Probably the most sincere images of all aren't photographs, but drawings - usually made with crayons on Big Chief Tablet paper. The photographs that come closest to capturing the "very innocent, personal take" of that group of "artists" are the ones that most do it for me.

-- Tod Hart (g_t_hart@lycos.com), April 06, 2002.

Tod,what the hell are you burbling on about? Big chief tablet paper? I feel the need for another beer......

-- Phil the brave (philkneen@manx.net), April 06, 2002.

Good points, Marc, and I'm in favor of an increase in civility on this forum. But, allow me to ventilate for a moment and tell you what I find particularly irritating.

I love to look at pictures, lots of pictures, even bad pictures. (It's from bad pictures that we can tell what good pictures are.) Now, I find some of the pictures displayed here are embarrassingly bad. That's okay, though. Some people just haven't learned yet; haven't learned to master the art of photography or to exercise discretion in what they choose to display publicly. I can tolerate that, too.

What really irritates me, though, are: 1. The people who post amateurish photos and, expressly or tacitly, invite comment; and then are offended when others trash their pics; 2. The people who post photos and also find a need to express their philosophies and to speak authoritatively about every aspect of photography as though they are the second coming of HCB. Quite frankly, some of these folks must be delusional.

The "mischief makers" on this forum have actually become entertaining in comparison to the the these others who take themselves so seriously. (I will not mention one in particular, whose initials are PK, because just as in the movie "Beetlejuice" whenever his name is spoken he pops up again.)

What is good about this forum is that there actually are knowledgable, talented people like Mike Dixon, Andy Dixon, John Collier (where has he been lately?) and others who can speak authoritatively on subjects.

Just as other problem children have been dealt with in the past, I subscribe to Tony's advice to simply ignore the irritating posters. If someone feels compelled to post an out of focus picture of his overweight girlfriend and explain his philosophy of Leica photography, then laugh privately but just ignore the guy. Fools love attention.

Otherwise, life is great; Leicas are wonderful; the M7 will be a huge success; HCB planned his shots; Voigtlander can't hold a candle to Leica; and only rank amateurs use silver cameras.

Dennis

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), April 06, 2002.

My Thoughts About the Forum: Just because it was taken with a Leica camera does not mean it is a good picture. When I look at a photograph I want to be enlightened, learn something. Excuse me for my frankness but, the take on Mike Dixon being a talented photographer while entertaining, do I learn anything? I find his make-up somewhat interesting. I only wish that my computer skills would enable me to post pictures on this forum. Anyone care to offer some easy how to steps? I also think the forum is suffering from affluenza. How many cameras and lenses can you use at the same time? And what about those Cherry Blossoms?????? Is this a horticulture site??? Have we lost focus here. We are Leica dudes. We are Nikon dudes. We are Pentax 6X7 dudes. We are street photographers and Phil the Brave is our champion.

-- Richard Brown (rubyvalentine@earthlink.net), April 06, 2002.

Hello Dennis, didn´t like your bit about chrome LEICAs at all. I love them and prefer them any time over a black one. But I´am only a bloody amateur. So, please go to hell with your black ones ....

This forum here is very, very civilized, as you can see from my little entry above. There is much more yelling around on the Customers Forum on the LEICA Co. site, at least in the German section which I hesitate to visit more and more. Do not know about the LUG and similar groups. Things seem to be rougher there from time to time. This one here works best IMO. Good people around.

Best wishes

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), April 06, 2002.

Yes Marc some good points, but this forum has been hijacked lately by every Tom, Dick And Harry posting their family snaps - most of which shouldn't even be in a family album. To add insult to injury they are then complimented profusely on their marvellous work (???).

Yes there is some good work displayed - Mike Dixons's pictures are OK but there does seem to be a bunch of sycophants who drool over his every button push. Just to balance this I once emailed Mike to show appreciation for a *particurlarly* good effort.

As has been mentioned before there are endless picture posting sites - I have always understood this forum to be a predominantly equipment orientated site and not a dumping ground for wastebin quality snaps. If anyone then dares to suggest ways in which the poster's work could be improved they are assailed by the politically correct loony liberals.

Yes, of course one ignores the postings that are of no interest but that may soon mean ignoring this site altogether. It may be of some consequence that frequent and welcome posters I have followed over the past year are recently conspicious by their absence.

Take my words as insulting if you like but it is an opinion, not an insult.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), April 06, 2002.

Great sermon photo. I should've waited until Sunday to post my question. Oh, and I'm also wearing a Flack Jacket just in case the snipers find out where I live. Seriously, the point about "less initiated photographers" ragging on and on, is well taken. Yet, from what I can tell, it seems to be only a few of many. But the many are painted with the same brush in lofty general comments deriding less accomplished efforts on this forum. That's all I was trying to point out. Let's incourage rather than discourage, especially those new to Leica, like the one fellow that answered this post.

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), April 06, 2002.

Hi, Marc:

I for one don't feel as if you were riding a high horse but trying to help us keep this site useful and desirable to visit. Thanks !

Not too long ago Tony posted (http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a- fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=008TCX)his own position(the most valuable one, IMHO)regarding vulgar or obscene postings. I'd kindly suggest to extend the concept to any posting we are not happy with, whether about text or imagewise and allow unwanted content to pass unnoticed.

Not an original idea, of course. But lets give it a try . . .

Remarkable joke, John. Good shot, too ! Did you lighten the face up in the dark room?

Regards

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), April 06, 2002.

Do you know what I think? Do you? Well I'm going to jolly well tell you.I think you have all run out of things to talk about.Yes,that's what I think.A good heated debate is what's needed,a little ginger,as it were. I'm going to sit in the sun now and drink some cold Guiness and think about what I'm going to do about you lot......I may involve my lawyer,but I'm not sure.

-- Phil the relaxed (philkneen@manx.net), April 06, 2002.

Dennis, You, quite specifically, said: "What really irritates me, though, are: 1. The people who post amateurish photos and, expressly or tacitly, invite comment; and then are offended when others trash their pics" What about people who do two of those three things: that being people who post amateurish photos and expressly invite comment, but are GRATEFUL for, rather than offended by, severe criticism? I am one of them, and my pictures are gradually improving as a result of criticism which I have taken to heart. (Trashing is uncouth and unnecessary). I hope you aren't irritated by us. -Ollie http://www.web-graphics.com/steinerphoto

-- Ollie Steiner (violindevil@yahoo.com), April 06, 2002.

I agree with what others have said in response to your post. We have definitely lost some (a lot?!) of our civility of late, but it is seldom due to the 'elevated talents'. People such as Mike D, Peter H, and John Collier (to name but a few of the 'old timers') have nearly always shown great understanding with newcomers to the fold:-) Unfortunatley in the past while we have been inundated with people of lesser experience (I'll not names, but there are a couple in particular) who take great joy in posting 'beginner' photographs and asking for our thoughts, or posting inane philisophical rambliings, also asking for opinions - yet when the feedback is not what they want to hear, they usually fire the first rounds of garbage. And yes, unfortunately the old-timers (I now include myself here having been on this forum for well over a year) fire back. But the problem is completely due to a certain type of individual who thinks forums like these exist to say whatever they please, and pity the poor guy who disagrees.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), April 06, 2002.

I disagree.Pity me.

-- Philled with pity (philkneen@manx.net), April 06, 2002.

Marc,

Do go to the archives and read from the bottom, (they are stacked chronologically). Last year this forum was an Island of civility on the 'net. There were repeated accolades from users on how great it was when measured against the other sites covering the same subject. It was great... someone would ask a question, and there would be multiple responses with very good information and if need be, references to where to look further. If some one asked an opinion, the responses all came back with civility and in the case of conflicting opinions, the realization that they are just that... opinions. One other thing you will see is that there were no "kids"... every name was a real first and last name, from adults that had things to say and things to share without hiding behind cute teenage aliases. It was a pleasure to check this site every morning after logging on, and back then nobody ever signed off feeling bashed or trashed.

The things you mention are mostly true, but they are mostly recent. I have my opinions based on my knowledge of writing styles that some of this garbage is from one person using multiple names, (how many people know that there is a space after the coma when typing?... most people, so it is funny when I read all of that garbage and it has the word after the coma with no space. Coincidence?)

Anyhow, if you judge this site, and judge Leica owners and users, do it with full disclosure. Go back and see how great this site was a year ago. Maybe we can take it back.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), April 06, 2002.

I'm on my way back into the past posts pronto. A lot of what I'd like to learn about has probably already been covered there any way. Hope there are still pictures to enjoy. Catch ya later, I'm in my time machine in mere moments. Hope I can find my way back .

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), April 06, 2002.

wise point Marc, for me it has been a good way to talk about photography more than a year using this forum, I must confrss there had been times I cant stop my words, but any way my limited english don´t alow me to go very far... and the most I like of this forum is good maners.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

al, i went back to the 1st post, by tony r, 7/21/99, then to the 23rd, 7/26/00. 23 posts in a year? maybe some were deleted (why), maybe that's why posts are repeated. nowadays, we typically get 23 posts in two days. even with the dribble i find it better now. more difference of opinions avail. not tow the leica line. diversity is the key.

if you and other old-timers want the good old days, perhaps you all can set up on icq or other private internet club. keep this forum free. 8^)

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

I think insulting comes with the internet, not with a specific camera brand. But I do think there are problems with people thinking that owning a specific camera brand makes them better than other people.

I was really bothered by someone thinking that the forum was the place to expound their personal eating habits, and made what I thought was the appropriate response.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 06, 2002.

Mark - Thank you!

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), April 06, 2002.

I don't think the lack of civility exhibited by some people is a matter of Leica snobbery, but more a matter of being on the Internet. More precisely, perhaps it's a matter of the annonymity provided by the Net, and that they can vent their emotions without the risks associated with such behavior in the face-to-face realm.

I would also say that almost every Web forum I've participated in goes through the same sort of periodic ebb and flow. It seems to be the same sort of repetitive pattern that formed the theme of the movie "Groundhog Day", but more on an annual cycle. Things go nicely for a while, and then a few people start getting snotty, a couple of brave souls complain, the "dismal state" of the forum gets discussed for a while, and then things go back to normal. Twelve to eighteen months later, the cycle repeats.

As long as the brave souls don't forget to complain when the snotty period comes along, everything will work nicely - over time.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), April 06, 2002.

You lot are having a laugh,I'm sure of it.Actually,while I was enjoying a few pints of the black stuff outside my friendly harbourside pub I took a photo of my girlfriend who promptly told me that cameras are the work of satan and steal your soul.I don't have have soul,so that's ok,shoot away.

-- Phil the oppressor (philkneen@manx.net), April 06, 2002.

Marc, Appreciated your post!! - maybe those who are deeply committed to their work/craft/art (out of a love or even an "addiction" to it!!) tend to be more humble, more gracious, more at peace, than others whose work/craft/"art" is only a by-product of an overwhelming drive to elevate their egoes!! I would imagine the latter class is always eager to attack and dominate.

Regards!!,

-- Art Waldschmidt (afwaldschmidt@yahoo.com), April 06, 2002.

We were born from the nigth,

In it we live , in it we´ll die

But ligth will be tomorrow for most

For those that now cry the nigth

For those for whom day´s denied,

For all will be ligth

For all will be all.

Emiliano Zapata

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

Well...I am an amateur snapshooter with 7k worth of new leica gear! Do I care what someone else thinks of this? Nah. Right on about taking photos that depict one's own interpretation of the scene. This is the only way to go in my estimation. Of course if you're shooting commercially, well that's a different story usually.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

Yeah, Dennis, that black camera's going to look really professionally sticking outta your . . . oh wait, I guess you were joking about chrome cameras . . . ; ) I'd like to echo what several others have said about the level of civility and helpfulness on this forum. Aside from some unknown ass jumping in occasionally to make nasty comments, most people on this forum have been quite gracious and constructive in their comments to and discussions with others, especially with newcomers who show a genuine interest in sharing knowledge. Look at it as a neighborhood pub where the atmosphere is generally quite congenial. People get a friendly greeting if they stop in to ask for directions, or when the pull up a seat at the bar, show some interest in the others there, and share a few stories. On the other hand consider strangers who come in, try to deceive people, start telling everyone how things should be done, then insult and make false accusations about anyone who disagrees them--they're getting to get a much cooler reception. If they do it repeatedly, it will sour the mood in the whole place, and they're likely to get a very hostile reaction.

(John, excellent shot, and the perfect context for presenting it!)

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 06, 2002.

ooops, couple of my paragraph breaks got lost . . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 06, 2002.

Yes, that too- John your posts are cool and funny. Where the heck do you get all those photos? Your Leica must be a constant companion.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

Marc:

I appreciate your comments and agree with them. I have gotten much helpful information from this group. I would like to make a request of others in this group. I live in the boonies and have access to a 28K dial-up modem and pictures in the postings make for VERY slow reading. I like the clickable links or addresses where one can look up the photos if you desire. It makes for more enjoyable viewing. The forum has gone downhill in the past year with certain individuals. Some of these have cleaned up their acts and others have not. Let's keep it clean and civil. I enjoy sharing the humorous postings with my wife and children.

Press the button and pass another roll of film please.

-- Mark A. Johnson (logical1@catholic.org), April 06, 2002.

pull up a seat at the bar, show some interest in the others there, and share a few stories. On the other hand consider strangers who come in,

Wow ....lost for words.Is this some western town.I thought it was a Leica forum...spooky or what.Regards Allen...might need to change my name and move.Regards Allen

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 06, 2002.

The guy on the right does not look nice.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 06, 2002.

Look up the term analogy.

Could have substituted cafe, country club, street corner--just about any place that people gather. The message would still be clear to most: if the first (and second, and third, . . .) impression that you make is bad, deceitful, and/or abusive, it's not reasonable to expect respect and kindness in return.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 06, 2002.

Hey, Watson. What's with all that Zapata crap? And that photo? Ha! IMO, the photo sucks big time. Maybe it would work if you hadn't centered the guy walking and placed him on the left side. Oh, and horizontal may have worked better, too. Typical amateur mistakes. (God, this feels good!!)

And Dixon. I never said I used black cameras, you moron. I only said silver was for rank amateurs. (Oh, yea, I'm on a a roll now!!)

And Marc, how'd we get started on this crap anyway? You started it!!

Where's Phill Kneen (or is it Phil?) when we need him?

I'm joining Kristian and never coming back to this forum with you inferior beings!! (Oh, what? Kristian came back? Never mind.)

And Alfie!!! Well,..... (oh, never mind, it's too obvious.)

Yea, come on, go ahead and flame me! I dare you.

Disclaimer: This has been a test conducted in conjunction with an ongoing study by the Sociology Department of the New Orleans Community College (Evening Division) to determine the flash point of Leica users, abusers and pretenders. Please do not forget to post your responses to the ridiculously inflammatory remarks.

Dennis :>)

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), April 06, 2002.

DDOOHHHH!! Look up the term metaphor, too . . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 06, 2002.

These people above are more friends of yours than mine.They make the whole debate foolish as you do.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 06, 2002.

I shoudn´t pay atention but here I go Dennis, this is a copy of a picture of mine that apeard in a news paper time ago, is the only copy of it I have at hand, about composition, well it was the only way to isolate this sadwalking man from other people around, unfortunately can´t show a better print, even you would like it. About Zapata, well man read some universal history book, you´ll find him.

Nice to know you felt good, I did too. ;-)

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

I do not know why i bother...maybe a few beers.

You and a small group of your fans dominate this forum,are they fans or just DOMINATED,some yes some no...some believe.If you say it is a good posting they agree.If you feel someone is threating your position as "the big man at the bar,you send them forth".The internet is a big forum,you will meet people like me,it is not a some small western town where you are the Mayor...hurts yes, truth does.Having said all that,let people post within reason,let them put their photos on....treat them with respect,we are all human beings.You personally will enjoy more.Stop being the town Mayor,be a human being...with respect and i hope no harm Regards Allen

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 06, 2002.

BARMAN!... my bill please, ...too many beers, hic! ...

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

This is becoming a reality show...

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

I liked the posting from the guy who said he had no intention of becoming another HCB and he didn't care if his best pictures were of his family and his dog - he just liked using Leicas. So what the hell's wrong with that? Who's buying the next round?

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), April 06, 2002.

What I learnt from my "similar post" is that not all people are bad. most people on this forum want to get along with others and many have done so since my "flaming post". I think that much was learnt by myself and others from my post, regardless of the negativity that came from it. Most people were positive, thus I must advise all to ignore the rudeness of others and move on. There is much to be learnt from this forum and the more you put in, the more you'll get out.

Giles, if you have an opinion, it can be insulting at times, as you displayed in my post before. Your tone can be very degrading and I hope we can avoid such flaming in the future. When you're not flaming your comments can be very constructive as you've shown in the past.

I took a lot of crap in my previous post and all for what? Chris never thanked me for supporting him, and that's ok because I nver did it for a praise. But I also made the post due to the same reason Marc is posting right now. I was sick of people being insulted in sucha degrading way. And it seems people have positively moved on :-)........except for PINHEAD maybe.

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

Alan, you have completely missed what's going on here.

Mike has paid his dues. When I first encountered him on the internet, he was just another guy posting his pix. His stuff was great, a lot of people responded (this was mostly on the Greenspun People Forum and on Photocritique.) Mike earned his reputation from the photographs he posted. And these weren't the photographs of girls that get everyone on this forum all excited, they were the bar shots like the one above, the street shots, the party shots. Really, really fine work that shows what's going on inside Mike's head.

As a result of the fine photography, people listen to Mike. It's obvious he knows what he talks about, it shows in the photos. Anyone can talk about photography, but it doesn't really matter what anyone says unless they can do it, because otherwise it can't come from experience, can't come from the heart. That's a bit strong - many people have interesting perspectives on the photos themselves, and these are often worthwhile regardless of the source.

So post some fine photos and maybe what you say will matter to someone, otherwise you're just another anonymous internet entity pissing in the wind...

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 06, 2002.

I've come to just expect the "Mike vs. Allen" battle as a norm on the site. I don't even see it as flaming anymore. Just "trash-talk". And sure Mike has earned his credibility, and never makes stupid and repeated "billingham bag" posts like some (me:-)) on this forum.

But I also think that Allen deserves some credit too. Maybe some have forgotton, but a while ago Allen was shunned one too many times and went a litle "nuts". He got extremly aggitated and started insulting anything he could. After a bit of a slap on the hand, he has recently made a big turn around and improved. And he has been making efforts to contribute to and make his own discussions, which have had many responses (good and bad).

Sure, he is very opinionated, arrogant and sometimes rude. But I don't believe he attacks people with "evil" intent. But he does get aggitated quite easily. And this is also something he must work on. I think that if we all try to accept his arrogance, his rudeness will cease. But he also must make a valiant effort too as many others here have done (including myself).

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

And sure Mike is a great photographer (Allen probably is too), but it means nothing when both are having a childish go at each other. Somewhat amusing, but we'll soon run out of drinks and the girls would've all left the bar!!!

Please just make up! You're scaring the pretty girls away :-0

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), April 06, 2002.

Remarkable joke, John. Good shot, too ! Did you lighten the face up in the dark room?

No Ivan, I used a #29 red filter to darken the sky and tilted a 24 upwards to take advantage of keystoning. High contrast effect with HP4+.

Regards,

John.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), April 06, 2002.

When I look at a photograph I want to be enlightened, learn something. Excuse me for my frankness but, the take on Mike Dixon being a talented photographer while entertaining, do I learn anything? I find his make-up somewhat interesting.

I find his make-up somewhat interesting

Not my words...but think about it.

I have never attacked your friend..unless he has attacked me,and never so hard as his attacks.Why has he attacked because he heads a small vocal interest group,who like to dominate this group...yes ,that simple.Now many a times i have tried to call a truce...but he still comes back.Now i am not some faint heart person,the opposite.Him,and his lurking friends,my lurking enemies. (HIS WORDS NOT MINE READ OTHER POSTS) will always get a answer back from me..when they throw the first stones.I will always try to be a lot less abusive.I liked your photo of the hands, bye the way,hence a degree of respect.An answer dispite a few beers.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 06, 2002.

I'm getting a little bit confused. Mike Dixon, I appologize if my posting offended you but, in this industry you have to have a thick skin to go forward and become a better photographer and, you are on your way . Here are a few things I do like about your pictures: nice light, good skin tones. PS. Hair and make-up ARE really important . Best of luck. Richard Brown

-- Richard Brown (rubyvalentine@earthlink.net), April 06, 2002.

Richard, there's no need for an apology. I was not offended, and you said nothing inappropriate. Your assessment of the role of criticism (and accepting criticism) is entitely correct. I'm actually a much harsher critic of my own work than most people here (well, the ones who are commenting), but it wouldn't make much sense for me to try to convince people I'm not very good. ; ) The reason that I don't usually make direct responses to "negative" comments is that I think it's pointless to try to argue someone into thinking that my work is good; I accept that 1) their tastes/expectations are different than mine, 2) the photo in question simply wasn't that strong, or 3) both. I welcome any thoughful critiques anyone might make . . .

(Oh, you're also welcome to check out my (in-need-of-an-update) website if you want to see a wider variety of photos tha I typically post here. My photographic output is not all pretty girls.)

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 06, 2002.

I feel that when that a few of you guys argue and insult each other, the less you are out using your Leicas. The point is to get out and enjoy your cameras. I personally respect the Leica contributors here who (1) post great photos, and (2) can answer a question with an informative, courteous response. Anything else is just "much ado about nothing".

-- Steve Brantley (superglidesport@mindspring.com), April 06, 2002.

Alan, post some great photographs and nobody will remember what you said. Keep making silly accusations about Mike Dixon and "his friends" or "his supporters" or whatever you want to call people who appreciate photography, and you're juts making silly accusations. The problem that Marc references in his initial post is aggravated by people who really seem to have no photographic interests other than stirring up the board, rather than those who post photographs that people can see.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 06, 2002.

To Jeff Spirer, Your comment to the effect that in order to be a good and valid photo critic requires the critic to first be a good photographer is highly questionable at best. Example: A,D. Coleman, not known for being a photographer but one of the best photo critics. Further, gallery owners exhibiting photgraphy[world class] usually are not excellent photographers themselves, but the sure do influence the world of B+W photgraphy. So, you shouldn't easily dismiss those people expressing opinions or giving advice simply because they have not posted photos. Then there are people like me who don't know one end of the computer from the other and wouldn't know what to do with a scaner even if they could spell it right. I have been shooting since 1982, have BFA in photography from RIT[year 1987]and have had numerous shows. If I had scanning equipment with the knowledge and inclination to use it, you would probably find my photos worthy of your attention. Don't be so quick to say post pictures or , in effect, shut up. No offense meant!

-- John Elder (celder2162@aol.com), April 07, 2002.

John, I'll let Jeff answer for himself, but I'm pretty sure you've misinterpreted his comments. I think I remember times when he has specifically made the point that one does not have to be a great photographer to offer valid and valuable criticism.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 07, 2002.

"Does a talent...?"

I don't think the insulters on these pages would get very far in an insulters' talent contest. Pedestrian stuff, generally.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), April 07, 2002.

I've had had a great idea.Why don't you girls just get together in a big field and have a fight? You could use your cameras as clubs to beat each other(let's face it,you don't use them for anything else).I could could come along and throw olive oil over you and take photographs,National geographic would print the pictures I'm sure.

What a sad state of affairs.The queens mother is getting burried on tuesday and we don't even get the day off work,what the hell is that all about?

Do you know what I like about you chaps? Nothing.You should re-name this site and call it 'the Mike Dixon arse kissing club'.

-- Phil the hung-over (philkneen@manx.net), April 07, 2002.

One more posting on this topic, and i'LL stop looking at this posting.

-- Ed Hazera (ehazera@msn.com), April 07, 2002.

Ed,don't go mate the world needs you,I need you.Go out Ed and take some photographs(you do own a camera don't you?).It's like summer here on the Isle of Man so I'm going to load the old M6 up with some Neopan 400 and go and take some photo's of the inside of my local pub,if I start to feel faint I may go and sit outside.Who knows?

Have you ever noticed how easy street photography is when you're drunk? Approaching strangers is no problem at all,focusing the camera is a problem though when you can't even focus your own eyes,but this is remedied by setting the lens to 4 feet(you can also photograph with one hand,leaving the other to hold your drink). I like to brag to people about the price of my camera gear in the pub,it gives my a huge amount of pride and wellbeing.

I hope you will all respect our dearly departed Queen Mum on tuesday by holding your own 2 minute silence and not posting any inflammatory comments about the Royal family.

-- Phil the tea-drinker(milk and 2 sugars please) (philkneen@manx.net), April 07, 2002.

Actually,talking about the Royals,the Queen owns a Leica M6.I doubt very much that she knows how to use it,but I think this is a commen trait among Leica users.I saw a picture of her using it once,she had that "why the hell didn't I buy a Canon sureshot" look about her.I would love to see some of her photo's.....Prince Phillip in the garden.....Prince Phillip in the bath.......Prince Phillip kicking the dog......Lady Diana in her coffin......Prince Phillip having a sly wank......the Queens thumb......

I wonder who does her developing? I bet she takes them down to her local 1 hour D and P.

-- Phil the Grotesque (philkneen@manx.net), April 07, 2002.

Mike is right. I have often posted that great critique requires a different set of skills than great photography.

However, people who talk endlessly about the capabilities of specific cameras, lenses, techniques, etc, and have nothing to show for it, that's different. There is no way to tell if they have any idea of what they are talking about.

Everything else on this thread is a mess, but that's the internet...

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 07, 2002.

First time I 'visited' this Q & A. A lot of comment is at hand, instead I would like the enclosed image to speak for me, done with my Kodak Instamatic, at age 10. Machiel

ps - not sure how to attach an image, let's see if I can

-- Machiel Botman (machiel.botman@worldonline.nl), April 07, 2002.

rob, nice to read from you, wellcome to the bar, have a tequila man, you need to be tuned, hic!

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 07, 2002.

Or to put it another way, does owning a Leica turn one into a nauseatingly, whinny, namby-pamby? Meanwhile, back at the Leica-M Ranch life goes on.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), April 07, 2002.

Whoops, I almost forgot! Leitz M6, Elmar-M 50mm 1:2.8, B+W KR1.5 MRC, Fuji Sensia II 200. Ah, Life is Sweet!

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), April 07, 2002.

Allen - once I defended you - something I now regret. Return from whence you came.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), April 07, 2002.

roberto, last time I had any tequila I ended up going into convulsions on the carpet - my favourite drink, but does not mix well with dope. But hey... practice makes perfect!

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), April 07, 2002.

For one I like the crtique of others, and I like the feel of using the Leicas. am I a good photographer because I use Leica? no!!! Will I be a better photographer because I want others critque? yes. I crave info about others experiences with situations and equiptment. If someone wants to get on a soap box or degrade others efforts I try and ignore it, kinda like "selective hearing" All in all though I've found this forum very enlightening from many standpoints. Some day when I can hold a candle to the work posted on this forum I will try and post some of my own work.

-- Andy Wagner (awagner@midwest-express.com), April 07, 2002.

have you notice that we share so much of ourselfs through a line, we shall do the first world wide leica group meeting, how about next summer? would be healthy

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 07, 2002.

Some day Glenn Travis is going to post an image and claim it was made on Chinese-made Bao Ding film with some flavor of a Voigtländer super-wide angle lens mounted on a Minolta CLE. Tony's site will go down for a week to recover.

-- Tod Hart (g_t_hart@lycos.com), April 07, 2002.

Allen - once I defended you

From whom and what.Were they a danger to me!If so thanks...if it was from that guy at the bar triple thanks.Bob have you been taken over,is the real Bob somewhere inside trying to get out,if so wag your little finger or say Colin.Help they are coming...sorry i spilt your beer over my head.No i do not want to go outside and see the stars.Not those stars,what do you mean.Please do not make me like Bob,ouch! it hurts....what pretty stars.

Yes Bob i had better go,by bye feel sleepy.

Just a bit of fun Bob..do not get yourself upset.Regards Allen

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 08, 2002.

Well said. Iwould comment more, but why? Some few people are rude and childish. But most are polite and mature.

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), April 09, 2002.

Well said. Iwould comment more, but why? Some few people are rude and childish. But most are polite and mature. Thanks for the post Marc.

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), April 09, 2002.

Marc: to answer your posted question:

Yes. It should be found in the clear plastic envelope along with the warranty card, inspection certificate, and invitation to subscribe to Leica World and Leica Photographie magazines.

If you can't find it there, try looking underneath the packing material - possibly a store customer took it out to look at it in the shop and failed to return it to the proper location.

Since I bought my Leicas used (M4-2/P) without boxes, I never received one myself - and haven't seen a need to order a replacement from Leica parts - yet.

8^)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), April 09, 2002.

At first I didn't think that this thread would take us anywhere. But then I read: " I think it's pointless to try to argue someone into thinking that my work is good; I accept that 1) their tastes/expectations are different than mine, 2) the photo in question simply wasn't that strong, or 3) both. I welcome any thoughful critiques anyone might make . . ." and I felt that even some postings which couldn't be called nothing kind enough to be written up were worth to be read ... furthermore, after a while I learned to look first at who wrote the post and skip it completely in some few cases that experience has largely shown justified.

This is not an at homine argument but some persons have solidly demonstrated to be unable or unwilling to make contributions worth the time to be read. And I, for one, act in consequence.

Thanks for the lesson, John. I realize that filters can help in difficult situations provided you know what to do with them. I'll try my hand at them . . .

Regards, beautiful people.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), April 09, 2002.