Hello all I am comtemplating trading in a current spec Summicron 50 for a new Noctilux 50 and would like your advise as to whether this is a wise decision or not as I am worried about the Noctilux's performance as a general purpose lens other than using it fully open. Keeping both lenses is out of the question as I will need as much spare cash as possible! Is the Noctilux only slightly worse than the summicron when stopped down or is really bad??? Im not too bothered about the size and weight either! Thanks

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), April 12, 2002

Answers

what other lenses do you have?

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), April 12, 2002.

Hi I have a 35 Sumicron ASPH, which I use the most, and a 15mm Voightlander. I would like the added benfit of having the Noctilux for situations when the Summicron cant be hand held anymore. Thanks

-- Karl Yik (Karl.Yik@dk.com), April 12, 2002.

Karl

You haven't even told us why you are making such a contemplation. You need to prioritise your requirements and wants:

Is it for the effects- OOF areas (bokeh)? Is it for the low light ability? Is it that you were jsut curious why the lens is regarded as "legendary"

I too have contemplated such features but cannot bring myself to do so. Why? Can't afford it and my 35mm Lux Asph, 90mm Cron APO, and newly purchased 50mm Cron are a great combo. Sure the 35 Cron and 50 Noct would be great combo but more expensive and significantly heavier. If you use the 35mm lens more often, I would recommend you trade your 35 Cron for the Lux. Your mostly used lens (perspective) should be the most versatile. i.e. Never limited by f-stop.

In regards to your original question I assume that people will basically tell you that the Noct is sharp at f/1.0, but not fantastic. It only matches the Cron from f/8 to f/16. At wider apertures, the Cron is noticeably sharper. But both are great against flare, with the Noct often praised for repelling flare, even wide open. (PS. this info is onyl what i've researched. I have no experience comparing the two)

The Noct was designed as a specialty lens, and I believe it is best used in that way...in special conditions/requirements. I.e low light and for special out of focus effects....isolating subjects. The minimum focus of ony 1m is also limiting, especially when wanting to limit DOF. The 35 Lux can be used in a similar way in low light to the Noct as it can be used at a shutter speed one stop slower than the Noct.

A tough decision. And if it is this tough I would say "wait". It would be best to own both (considering you definatetly want to keep the 35Cron) at the same time and see which you prefer, and for what reasons. When the right time comes, whether financially or requirement -wise, you'll know it.

Good luck

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Karl, NEVER, EVER, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHAT-SO-EVER, give up one Leica lens for another, even it is the same focal length. The two lenses are very different in character and therefore function as creative options. I sold a non ASPH 35/1.4 to get an ASHP version, a decision I lament to this day. I love the newer lens to be sure, but there was a certain character to the non ASPH I sorely miss. Dump the 15 to start with, but not the Leica! However, if you insist on making the mistake, let me know how much you want for the 50/1.4 ASAP.

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), April 12, 2002.

Hi Mark The lens I have is a Summicron F2 50 not the Lux version, If I had the lux version I prob wouldnt bother trading it in for the sake of just one F stop. R U interested in a 50mm F2 Chrome Summicron current spec?? I can do you a good price! Anyway, its either keep my existing lens or get the Noctilux. Cant have both (unless I get a job promotion)

-- Karl Yik (KArl.Yik@dk.com), April 12, 2002.

I'm in agreement with Kristian here. A 50mm 'lux is a lot cheaper (and smaller) than the Nocti. Indeed there's only a small difference between the 'lux and 'cron size wise. Add the 'lux to your outfit and use one stop faster film!

:o)

-- Tim Franklin (tim_franklin@mac.com), April 12, 2002.

The 50 Noctilux (by virtue of its huge glass real-estate) is a low contrast lens. If you trade your 50 summicron for it then get ready for less snappier images made in broad daylight. My personal experience after having borrowed someone elses' Noct and shooting with my own cron.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), April 12, 2002.

Decisions, decisions, decisions! I cant take it any more with another lens added into the equation! :0) - Im going back to my dealer for another play with these lenses. Thanks

-- Karl Yik (Karl.Yik@dk.com), April 12, 2002.

John, just the man I was looking for. Did you find the difference between the 2 lenses 'blatently' obvious that the Noctilux was a lot worse than the Cron at apertures 5.6 onwards?? Thanks

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), April 12, 2002.

before making up your mind, you mustread erwin puts's article in phototechiques from a couple of years ago. it is entitled "king of the night" (it was the cover story), and considers the very question you are asking; to wit, whether the noct can be used as a general purpose normal lens. he compares to the cron and lux.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), April 12, 2002.

Occasionally we all succumb to the 'I want the biggest or fastest or best thing there is' syndrome. I personally have never used anything but a summicron in the 50 length. I just got a 35 1.4 asph this year and have the 35 asph cron as well. I shot tri-x mostly for years and then switched about 10 years ago to color, mostly slides now. I can't remember the time I reached for an additional stop with a 50. If I did there is K200, a beautiful film, and Sensia/Provia 400 also beautiful. I don't envy the guys who use their faster lenses but I can respect what they do. But just having to have the fastest is an itch that you may not be able to scratch. The only faster lens that I think about occasionally is the 28 cron instead of my elmarit. But that is because it is an all around better lens, something you cannot say about the 50 cron compared to 50 lux or noct. You have to ask yourself which lens would make most of the pictures I take better. For everything else a tripod with a good ball head. Just my never humble opinion of course.

-- Gil Pruitt (wgpinc@yahoo.com), April 12, 2002.

Karl:

I used to have an old Noctilux lens and a new 50 Summicron lens. I sold the Noctilux because it was just too large and heavy for me and was not getting enough use. The new 50 Summicron is an outstanding lens and is optically much better than the Noctilux. It is true that the Noctilux photos taken at f1 have a smooth bokeh that cannot be obtained with any other lens. But for everyday normal use the 50 Summicron cannnot be surpassed. That lens along with the 35 Summicron ASPH gets used almost daily with my M6 TTL. So my advice would be not to trade the Summicron for the Noctilux. Someday, when you win the lottery, you can get both lenses! :-)

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), April 12, 2002.

Did you find the difference between the 2 lenses 'blatently' obvious that the Noctilux was a lot worse than the Cron at apertures 5.6 onwards??

No. But to my eyes the Noctilux doesn't quite pop the images as much as the Summicron (on Agfa APX100). Summicron images at smaller apertures just have that extra bit of dimensionality that is lacking in the low-contrast design of the Noctilux (as well as the 50 Summilux sad to say).

Erwin Puts says the Noctilux can be used as an all-around lens. But is it the BEST all-around lens???? NO. That title belongs to the Summicron.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), April 12, 2002.

The Noct is my favorite Leica lens!Why? Because it has character and presence in it's delivery of tonalities.This lens which I have owned for a short time now has single handedly brought me back to 35mm photography after a period of boredom with it ...esp bored with the 35mm asph lens.I shoot 35mm to 12x20 large format and in my opinion this lens is the Leica lens to have.I would give up my 35mm 1.4 asph in a second if a choice had to be made between the two.This lens will expand your idea of what photography is and what can be done if you decide to buy it.If you are concerned with size, keep the f2.If you really need the close focus keep the f2.The Noct does focus closer than the 35mm asph though.I used to think that Leica meant tiny light lenses but for me now, Leica means f1 ability.The Noct will allow you to do what you have never been able to do before with 35mm.I particularly like using slow films with this lens as I do a lot of B+W work.Just today I shot some pan f 50asa at f1 for an artist friend of mine who wanted pics of a waterfall to paint.I shot with a Rollie at 125sec and the Noct at 500sec.She wanted the water with no blurr motion...Noct wins this one.It is a relief to be back with the 50mm again...the pics seem to flow more with less effort than the 35mm.The only reason to own the 35mm is if you do a lot of people type photo inside in cramped quarters or just like the 35mm perspective.Many people dont consider the Noct to be an all round lens...I beg to differ.This lens trounces the competition in speed,character,and DOF effects.No other Leica lens can lay claim to this.The Noct gives you CHOICES in your expression.If I had to own only one Leica lens this would be it.One more note...This lens is so much different than a standard 50mm that it seems in a class of it's own.The 50mm f2 can get redundant but this lens(Noct) is a completely different animal.If you havnt used this lens it is hard to intellectualise it's existance....until you experience and shoot with it in person....and see the results.It's an ANIMAL!!!

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), April 13, 2002.

One more thing...I just got done testing the Noct with Kodachrome 25asa,Pan f 50asa and 100 Fuji print reala.The color is incredible/outstanding,and with the print film...the guys down at the camera shop in town were amazed with the rendition and color as well as sharpness,I cant go in there without them mentioning it.In B+W,enlarged to 11.5 inches with pan f and a Focomat 1c...just beautiful!...I just wish my scanner worked so I could post this stuff.This lens is very similar in rendition/quality to the Zeiss planar 3.5F on my Rollie.From f1 to f11 fully usable in enlargements to 11.5"I didnt test at f16 or print larger than 11.5" This is definatly the best all around 50mm in my opinion.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), April 13, 2002.

Marc

I'm probably in the same situation as you did when I bought a brand new 35mm lux ASPH. I don't think it's logical for me to keep my non-asph 35mm lux (it's a Titanium!) since I'm totally satisfied with the ASPH. What's the compelling reasons for me to keep the Titan lens? Character? Hmm.... I can (I still can afford it) but ... BTW since we're talking about this superb character Titanium lux lens, anyone interested before it goes up in Ebay?

-- Greg (greg_choong@yahoo.com), April 13, 2002.

Karl, I own a Summicron but not a Noctilux. I have researched this same question extensively on the internet reading people's opinions, which a person should realize they are just that, and by looking at the pictures on the internet taken with the two lenses (along with my own from the summicron). I really want a Noctilux someday but I cannot afford it at this time. I like what it does, especially the "fuzzy" vignetting of the outside edge and the bokeh. It is not as tack sharp as the summicron but it is plenty sharp. I use Portra NC and cannot believe some people think going to a faster film would be the same. (160 to 400). It does a lot more than that IMO. Also, a plus, the color transmission in low light, and a minus, it doesn't focus a close as other lenses. IMHO I would definately keep the summi and buy the Noct when you can.

-- My Opinion (MO@notreal.com), April 13, 2002.

The 50mm Summicron and Noctilux are WAY different tools...Save up and try to keep the Summicron! The 1955 vintage collapsible of mine works well for most photos I shoot with a 50mm; but the Noctilux is the only lens that will get an image at times where there is almost no light.....they are both good tools; but have way different purposes....the analogy is one probably owns at least one 16oz claw hammer; and maybe a 6 lb sledge Hammer.... to use the sledge hammer for hanging pictures with finishing nails or building a bird house is ok if one only has one hammer;.....but a little strange; and rather unwieldly to use.......Using a 16 oz hammer to drive a big post into the ground is also the wrong tool to use...Having both is the way to go....

the Noctilux is a BIG HEAVY LENS... In low light work it has VERY LOW flare; ....I never use the lens hood; and do not worry about shooting directly into lights.....

Here are 4 photos all shot at 1/50 sec (old M3 beater camera)at F1.0 with my Noctilux... the negative strip was scanned into an Epson 2450 Photo scanner...Some of the photos hopefully will show up as thumbs; which can be enlarged......The film was ASA 800 Fuji Superia X-TRA... Developing was by Walgreens 1 hour photo.....If a Summicron was use @F2 the exposure would have been 1/12.5 sec ie 1/10 or 1/15....Kelly Below is a 900dpi scan of the 4 frames that maybe enlarged: Full Frame shot: Cropped closeup that can be enlarged:

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 04, 2002.

One more try to post the Noctilux photos: Below is a 900dpi scan of the 4 frames that maybe enlarged: Full Frame shot: Cropped closeup that can be enlarged:

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 04, 2002.

900 dpi scan of 4 frames


Full Frame shot:



Center enlargement:

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 04, 2002.

Sorry for the bad links at first folks.... My original HTML worked on another 2 web sites; one was ebay! I added some extra " " before the = and http and before the right brackets....to get the photos to work...my first intent/try was for the last photo to be a thumb; since it is large...

LEFTBRACKET img src=" http://www.FreeNoctiluxs/SummicronsRuleToo/Jupiter8Zorki.jpg"RIGHTBRACKET

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 04, 2002.

Karl. I recommend against that plan. The 50/1.4 Slux is a pretty good available light and general purpose 50 and wins when it comes to bulk, weight, and cost over the two lens combination. The need for a 50/1 Nocti is rare unless you are a dedicated available light photographer who frequently and habitually works in dark conditions, hand held, without flash. There are very few individuals who actually need a Nocti, and if Leica ever gets around to redesigning the 50/1.4 Slux, there will be plenty more Nocti lenses on the used market.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 04, 2002.