Ivan, thx for replying. Yes, I think I do not have the background knowledge to understand your photo. Im sure there is one, and a great one with LULU ;) . ok, did I mentioned the tone of the pic was great???;)))) Keep them coming!!

Giles: With regards to your misunderstanding with some of us, just let me say this when u make a critique.

When anyone post a pic for critique or sharing, it is obvious that they think it is a grea pic or something worth sharing. Or else, why else would anyone post? Would anyone post a DULL pic on purpose?

So, when u critique a photo, be it bad or good, please be constructive as best as u could.

When u say " This photo does nothing for me" . Fine. But show us an example of something that does. Or else, why should we care if it does anything for u or not? I mean, the poster would not know what does for u and he/she did not post a pic just to suit u.

If u dislike a photo, just say something that can improve a photo. Please dun say things like " This photo should go to the family album" etc. This says nothing about the photo but only your likings.

Like u said, this forum is for different opinions. But we can make this better by supporting each other's work, right?

Im sure u dun make WOW pics everytime, so why should u be so bold at times? We can help each other by asking questions about techniques and compositions, but we can destroy each other more easily by saying " THIS PIC DOES NOTHING FOR ME"

And im of the opinion that if one does not regularly post pics for critiques, their comments should be even less harsh.

I mean, how do we know how good your work is and why should we agree that our work is bad just because u said so?

Show us something, so we can learn from u too, GILES.;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002

Answers

This is a new pic for a new beginning. FLAME ME!!;)

This may be a dull pic to some, but it means something to me. So dun ask me to trash it or send to the family album. If u think its trash, show me something I can improve on. Thx.

Another reason to use Illford Pan F plus iso 50. Shot with M4p 35 asph cron at f2 1/125...see the DOF?? ;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

I have found that the comment "this photo does nothing for me" is quite useful. If the person who says it has obvious tastes (and I know little about the apparent debate here), I know that the photo doesn't appeal to someone with those tastes. I have to either find a different way to express myself to that person or ignore them as an audience for my work. Some people are able to provide very detailed critiques, and some a one-liner. It simply reflects the differences between people.

If you want a deep critique with a lot of insight on improvement, take a class with a good teacher.

For what it's worth, the shot above does very little for me. It has a distracted composition, a lighting problem on the left hand side, and the subject isn't made any more interesting than it would be in person.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 12, 2002.

Thx Jeff...would u even attempt shooting it?

-- travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Btw Jeff, I do not know and have not seen a lot of work by people making critiques here, so the phrase" this does nothing for me" really does nothing for me. ;)

And as a beginner, I wanna know whats the right way to go by getting good advice and not one liners like "crap photo" like Phil Kneen emailed me about the gal in the sand.

Im sure u r a great photographer, I have seen your work. So your taste is obviously of high standards.

As much as Im willing to develop my own style and techniques, Im willing to learn from u.

regards..

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

I think that adding something constructive is appropriate when there is something in the presented photo that can be capitalized upon. If there is really nothing of merit in the photo for the viewer, stating that a given image "does nothing for me" is simply an honest opinion.

As was stated above, if you really want only constructive comments on every shot you present to the group, enroll in photo class somewhere - but be forewarned, photo classes get rather into deconstructing images as well, and other students will happily tell you that your image "does nothing for them". I would assume that anyone posting an image here would be prepared for some honest, and sometimes harsh, opinions.

If you can't take the opinions expressed here, just try going down to one of the larger ad agencies in your city and having their art-buyer look through you work. I think you'll find that peoples opionions here are actually rather tempered in their judgement compared to people who critique (buy) photos daily .

-- mark lewis (mark@markpix.com), April 12, 2002.

It might be helpful if those folks posting images would offer a sentence or two about the context of the photo, or their intention, or a certain aspect of the photo they would like a comment on, etc.

If Travis' shot here is intended as a fine art shot, comments might go one way. If it is the track of a Taliban jeep leaving a bombed- out village, comments might go another way.

My point here is not that certain comments or types of criticism should be forestalled, or that honest, personal reactions should not be tendered, just that if the poster is looking for something specific for the forum--something to help him with his craft--he should ask for it.

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), April 12, 2002.

Thx Mark.

Its not that I can't take expressed opinions here. This is not an art gallery, so what I'd really wanted is for all of us to support each other by being nicer to each other.

I know opinions can be harsh, and sometimes too honest it can be insulting. I believe no one, including yourself, likes that.

This is a Leica forum and If I'd read the forum objectives correctly, it was formed so that every one of us can benefit from the joy of using Leicas.

We are not competing against each other by posting pics here . So why not make it an HONEST but FRIENDLY environment?

If everyone who needs a critique needs to take a photo class, then what is this forum for? This is the place, I firmly believe to share our ups and downs and some of our screw-ups and good work.

Opinions can be honest and at the same time fun to read. That makes learning fun. And that would make more people post their work.

Isn't that what this forum is all about?

regards..;)

-- travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

travis -- i really think you have it wrong here. if someone submits something specifically for critique (and not just to share), i think the poster really has to check his ego at the door. my assumption in such cases is that the poster does not want a pat on the back, but wants to know how a pic can be made better. i think you are wrong when you say people post shots they like and think are swell. i usually ask for critiques when i know a photo has failed, and would like to understand better why. as for the phrase "this photo does nothing for me," i think the others have it rite. in my view, photos need to elicit an immediate response from the viewer to suck you in. there can (should) be much more nuance and further levels of meaning once you begin to study the work, but there has to be that initial hook. if a phot leaves you cold at first glance, you generally aren't going to take the time to look at it further. as for your tire tracks in the sand, it also does nothing for me. i think this shot is crying out for large format treatment. lay the plane of focus on the ground so it's sharp from front to back, and really go to town with the texture and tonality of the sand. if this shot scores, it will be as a fine art photo only. as an image, it is simply not that inspiring. i do like the perspective though.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), April 12, 2002.

Thx Preston, I think u've made a good point. We should try to ask for what we want and not just blindly post.

Sometimes when I post a pic as a form of sharing a nice moment, I believe GILES said :" Should we thank you for sharing this with us?" .

Well, that's what I find discouraging. I know we should sometimes share our pics in PHOTONET only, by who sets the rules here?

If Im the forum host, I would strongly encourage EVERYONE to post!

"u dun learn until u see, u dun see until u learn"

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Travis, this does very little for me for a few reasons. There is no subject no story being told here just tire tracks. Maybe if there were skid marks I could think something might of happened like an accident. If you were attempting a photo with a strong visual impact to me at least it falls short there also. The tones ,textures and perspective you were trying to create is only mildly interesting. Since you asked HERE is a link to some of my photos, I'm sure some of them will "do nothing" for you and other people here which is OK.

-- Gerry Widen (gwiden@alliancepartners.org), April 12, 2002.

Roger, very good point there. U had me thinking again!;)

When I post something, I dun usually think its the best. My usual mentality was to show people here "hey, look what I've got ".

I dun really wanna know how good or how bad it is. But good advice on improvements or what should not have been done would certainly be of great help.

But when people say "hey...are u waiting for us to say your pic is good?", it makes me not wanting to post anymore.

If I'd wanted a teacher, this would not be the place. This is the place where I think I can find people with a common interest.

But obviously my thinking is wrong.

BUT, you've made a very good point! I should also learn whats good and whats bad by FIRST GLANCE.

by my point really is just to have fun here.

I hope everyone will...life is tough as we speak..;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

My general thoughts on what you've said--

What one often sees when people initially into photography is that the first step is that they begin to see things which they never saw before (for some reason, boring photos of fire hydrants and kittens are common first subjects), and now think, in their minds, are cool, so they take what are basically visual notes, not real photographs. For a shorter or longer time, many new photographers continue this, shooting pictures of their ideas, without really making them tickle the eyeballs instead of the mind. It would be like if you just bought a piano, and liked the sound so much you just sat there tapping keys to hear the sound--but it wouldn't be music.

When new photographers are at that point, it's hard to critize their work--it would be like criticizing an author's notes on napkins. It would be almost a given that those notes "wouldn't do anything for me", because they aren't a complete piece, nor are they formed enough to comment on.

At some point or another, a photographer get beyond the joy of just seeing new things, and does more with what he sees. I think it's probably difficult for one to work through that point, and I'm not sure it can be pushed from outside, however once in a while, a neophyte shoots something which is almost a picture, and then someone with a better eye can suggest little changes and crops that would bring it all together, and perhaps the photographer sees the difference, something clicks, and the next picture is better.

So "it doesn't do anything for me" is perhaps just a coded way of saying that there's not much raw material there to work on with constructive criticism, and it's time to put up something else, instead, that critics can get their teeth into.

Have you spent any time looking at photos by some of the real traditional masters (for me the models of subtle composition, though they don't hit the spot every time, are Cartier-Bresson and Eugene Smith) to try to understand what it is about the visual layout of their photos, beyond and not considering subject matter, that makes them effective?

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

The photo you've posted above doesn't do anything for me. :-) :-) :-)

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Travis, I will make no comment on the photo as I afraid whatever I say good or bad will be jumped on. The vast majority of the comments I post are technical points regarding equipment/technique etc not complaints as might be concluded from some recent exchanges.

As I said earlier I have posted pictures on this forum some time ago - some liked them, some didn't - taste and opinions differ amongst us all I am pleased to say. That is what makes this forum so interesting.

The fact remains however that if one is willing to post a photo for opinions he must be willing to take the rough with the smooth. Judging from some comments above others seem to feel the same way.

Actually I will say, I like this photograph, gosh! - yes, it has depth, interest and just plain appeals to me - I like it others don't but let's all be free to express an opinion without being jumped on.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), April 12, 2002.

Gerry thx.

I visited your site. I would not say all of them "did nothing for me" but the point really is : behind every image , there's a story.

Sometimes it srike us, sometimes not.

But I believe SHARING the images is the most important if we are to all improve.

I like looking at others' portfolios. It makes me think. I dun usually critique as I believe there is a story behind all of them. So what I say to each photo would not really do justice to the pictures or the photographers.

I think Leicas can do wonderful things. I need to share and wanna see what beautiful things the people here did with them.

That's pretty much my intentions. TO SHARE.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

I love my mother but all of her support and ooh's and aah's over my images have never helped to improve my craft. If what you are looking for are just nice warm fuzzy feelings, I can suggest a few good Cabernets that fail to disappoint.

If we go about setting the bar too low to which we compare ourselves, are we really accomplishing anything? I don't feel in competition with anyone on this site as you have suggested. Nor do I necessarily find this forum to be the best place to have photos critiqued, as the merits of the judges are a bit hard to ascertain. However, when you defensively call for someone who has given comments on your images to put something up for the rest of us to see, you automatically make it a competition between you and he/she.

I find some of the technical info on this site helpful and some of the critiques rather amusing in how they are recieved by the people whos images are being evaluated. Without fail, an image is posted and the person gets defensive about the first post that fails to call it the "best image they have ever seen".

Support from fellow shooters is all well and good, but post an image knowing full well that people will view it with a critical eye. We all have seen thousands of images, I would worry if we didn't start to become critical viewers after a while.

-- Mark (mark@markpix.com), April 12, 2002.

GILES!!!!!!! ;)

hey buddy..I know u as an honest bold but honest guy. You have great judgement and have perculiar tastes. I acknowledge that.

Being me, I just want u to know that it doesn't really matter to me if u like my or anyone else's pics posted here. I just want everyone to share and go home happy about being able to post.

"u did something for me" with your kind response.

regards...

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

MARK, my pic above has been here for nearly an hour, and so far none have said its good to their eyes.

DO U SEE ME GETTING DEFENSIVE?;)

In fact I like honest answers, if u dun like it, there is nothing I can do. But just MAKE IT FUN FOR ME.;)

COMMON, after a hard day's work, this really seems like a place where we can make fun of each other's work, isn't it? ;)

FYI: the image above was a test of the new film Im using. I wanted DOF in bright sunny days. And I got it with the Pan F. That's the story.

No art work, no snap, Just honest photography. ;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Thx Jeff...would u even attempt shooting it?

It wouldn't fit with what I do, but if I did..I would look for a way to put more expression into it. With "path" photos, it's necessary to either a) go somewhere, of b) go nowhere. This one does neither. In addition, it's hurt by the second set of tracks.

Consider a different perspective and a way of making the path do something.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 12, 2002.

Thx Roger, your response is exactly the kind Im looking for.

regards..

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

A different perspective..

My contrast is off as the sun was coming in strong from the left. A little flare perhaps?

I think the composition can be improved.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Travis seems to have contracted a virus which may be contagious on this forum: acquired scanner proficiency syndrome. When combined with a paper-thin skin it can prove fatal.

-- Christopher Goodwin (christopher.goodwin@gte.net), April 12, 2002.

Looking at the above, it'll take time, it'll take time..to reach the forum objectives..;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

And what are the forum objectives, Travis?

-- Christopher Goodwin (christopher.goodwin@gte.net), April 12, 2002.

It takes a bit of effort to properly critique a photo and identify constructive improvements that could be made. It isn't reasonable to expect that a group of people should all put that effort into a particular photo, just because you scanned it and posted it. If a photo doesn't move me in some way, or be close to good but have some areas for improvement that can be easily identified, I'm also likely to just say "It doesn't do anything for me."

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Joe

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), April 12, 2002.

it is regrettable that this discussion group is not limited to pure ASCII

the tire traces are kinda cute. I'm sure that MoMA will purchase.

I guess this does replace the good old camera club, and yearly themed exhibits. Only in those times, as boring as one's pics might objectively be, utmost care was brought to try and shine amongst peers. Especially crucial if you have to confront said peers face to face at the opening cocktail.

Here anything goes, I guess. So minimal effort is OK, and cynical comments such as mine are politically incorrect. A bit like those absolutely crappy end of year kids performances some schools impose on parents: minimal effort, no work, maximum applause.

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Travis, the last picture would have been improved by leaving the lens cap on. Another of your beach pics? Same trip?

-- Christopher Goodwin (christopher.goodwin@gte.net), April 12, 2002.

I rest my case, folks.

watever suits u....;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Is that a promise, Travis?

-- Christopher Goodwin (christopher.goodwin@gte.net), April 12, 2002.

I like the second one better, except for the tilted horizon. There was something wrong about the first one that sort of irritated me--I can't put my finger on it.

Jeff's comment about going somewhere or nowhere was good--I was thinking previously that two collided trucks rolled over at the end of the two sets of tracks in the first shot would have made a more interesting photo. Just my newspaper experience showing, I guess. :-) I've never found pattern photos all that interesting when the point is ONLY the pattern and nothing additional.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

thx Michael ;).

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

I agree that a "path" shot has got to go somewhere. Here is a shot I took that I think illustrates that point...I know, not the greatest shot in the world...but if you take the figure away, you just have a path...with the figure it adds a little more interest.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), April 12, 2002.

Travis, I don't get all the crocodile tears. For God Sake's Man! Chin up, Chest out, and all that bloody crap! You're becoming a nauseatingly, whiny, namby pamby! Just post your bloody picture and move on!

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Sorry...let me try that link again...

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), April 12, 2002.

Glen...yes sir Glen...I see u moving on too...;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Don't know why it's not working. Cut and paste if you're interested. Sorry.

http://www.jimtardio.com/gimi-2001-scooters-big.html

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), April 12, 2002.

to hell with it...

HE DID NOTHING FOR ME EITHER.

crap.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

It's not working, Jim, because you were referencing a web page as an image. Here is Jim's photograph:

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 12, 2002.

Thanks, Jeff. But check the source code...I wrote it the same way you did...didn't I???

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), April 12, 2002.

One ends in .html - the other ends in .jpg.

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), April 12, 2002.

Ah...never mind..I see I posted an html page instead of the jpeg...not enough coffee yet today.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), April 12, 2002.

Jim - If you look at the source, you will see that your reference ends in .html, while mine ends in .jpg. That fixed the problem.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 12, 2002.

jim, u have to put your mouse cursor on the image, click the right pad, click properties, block the http address and then put that in your source code as the image source.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Hi, Travis:

I was surprised that I have tried to do right the same photo with no more success than yours. I think that the light has a lot to do with it: while looking at things directly our brain interprets it somehow based on the rest of the same brain's content, not necesarily on what actually is in front of one's eyes, in fact not exactly the way it really looks (provided a REAL look could be defined). It is (should) be part of our craft to know how to make our printed image look the way we saw the subject at the moment we did. If we are lucky we have the required knowledge tools along with us at the moment we shoot. Otherwise we could still adjust the photo at the printing / scanning stage. Some photos will requiere extra effort at both instances.

In this case(which happens to be my own, I told you), from the graphical point of view (i.e intended meanings / stories left aside) the light seems to be too flat to render a better negative. But i like your second try somewhat better. It evoques more personal experiences in me, but graphically I think it has the same quality than the first one.

I haven't been lucky enough to find the same subject under the light conditions I'm thinking about, yet. And I'm not technically equiped to make any better of the conditions I have found in practice, so I'll keep trying. Lets do it both of us. I'll make you know if I have any better success at any time.

BTW: focusing right on the part of the tracks closer to the viewer in the second photo, and still closer, lens permit . . .?

Thanks for sharing, Gerry. Great site ! !

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), April 12, 2002.

Travis, Are you shooting for some strangers or are you shooting for yourself? Who gives a flying f--- what others think. It is your art dude. Except for Spirer, Appleby and Dixon do you think there are any Winogrands in the making here?

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), April 12, 2002.

Ray, I , like Ivan, will be more selective in hearing comments from now on.

As u know, there are still people like Mr Good-for-nothing-Win around.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Travis, I say this in all friendliness, but lighten up. It's the internet and obviously there will always be people with rude or obnoxious or unhelpful comments. Don't take it all so personally.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), April 12, 2002.

Ray, I , like Ivan, will be more selective in hearing comments from now on.
Hmm.. would that be matched by greater selectivity in posting to the forum too?
Alfie, more dishracks please. Krasnodar Chris, you've been way too quiet lately. You both should get equal airtime.

-- Fred Sun (redsky3@yahoo.com), April 12, 2002.

Travis, Aspire! Discriminate! Eliminate! Get some books, and visit art galleries to train your eye. Tear into your own work and try making the decisions at the time you are shooting. Then, after the fact, do it again. There is a huge gulf between snapshots and photographic art. It takes a lifetime of dedication, even if you are born enormously talented. Devour the images of recognized photographers. Become aware of why you respond ( or do not ) to work that others see merit in. It will help you to form your own vision. When that happens you will know it. And never fear to show that vision when it comes. As Piccaso said, " a work of art kept in the closet, might as well be kept in the head. " Best of luck, Marc Williams

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), April 12, 2002.

travis, i like looking at your photos. even when i don't care for them and would never post one like it, i tend to learn something about them myself much more than the bs that has been generated. bs does nada for the community. i like more the ones here - what was this machine doing here? it reminds me of footsteps in the sand going on to the horizon.

perfectly horizontal/vertical pics may not be the "best" given the situation - eg, superwides always being held level, horizon in the middle by definition. rules are meant to be broken, not spirits.

i think some people on the forum don't like to waste their time, although, many of the more critical seem to spend a lot of time doing so.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Unlike a threaded board where responses to an initial post can take up screens of space, or mail lists where unwanted stuff can score dozens of mails to delete, this forum allows a thread like this to take up one line, that's all. I'd suggest that if the complainers on this thread ceased to torment themselves by looking at it, both their mental condition and ours (who are bothering to take it seriously) would be better served.

[Short form:] bitchers, get a life.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Thx Glenn, Marc, Steve and Michael.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 13, 2002.

and Fred SUn, u have been extremely quiet too. Selective or?

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), April 13, 2002.