Hi! Have any of you read the Leica M7 UK full test by Damien Demolder? After reading his review in Amateur Photographer, I can't decide which first time Leica M I should get.Damien says if you have a M6 its hard to justify getting a M7. And the M7 needs battery power. I have wanted a leica M for a long time, And this is the time for me. M6 or M7? Thanks.

-- robert linney (robert.linney@shell.com), April 19, 2002

Answers

I think it depends on how you want to use it. If you are going to use the ae feature, and I think for reportage photography (for which an M is meant) this not only makes you faster but also lets you concentrate more on composition, the M7 is your only choice. The m6 also needs a battery if you are going to use the lightmeter (and what is the use of buying an M6 if you are not using the meter). Does it matter that the M7 is battery dependent? Do you care that by tradition an M is a mechanical camera or do you want to take pictures. Do not be concerned about harsh climates where a mechanical camera will always work. My EOS1n worked fine through an Indian monsoon shower and afterwards it never showed any problems.

-- Frank Bunnik (frank_bunnik@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

I would get a M6, unless you really need the AE mode. If I need so much automation I would simply get a Konica with lecia glass for the same price.

Once you started with a M, then you would want a second M. By that time you may consider a M7 or M3.

-- Marc (leica_image@yahoo.com), April 19, 2002.

Robert,

Get the M6 and learn something about Leica photography as it was before 2002. If you can afford an M6 now you'll be able to afford an M7 later.

I saw my first M7 today in Sannomiya, Kobe. Made my day.

Best,

Alex

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), April 19, 2002.

Hi Robert, Your decision will depend on 3 things: 1 Budget 2 If you buying brand new 3 If you need AE

The M7 costs 1.9K new, If you are not bothered about buying 2nd hand there will be a surge of mint M6 ttls on the market for roughly 1.1K The only 'real' useful point of getting an M7 would be AE. If you come from an Auto camera background, the M7 would seem a better choice WRT breaking into the world of manual cameras. My first impressions of using a M6 were 'What a real pain' and 'damn, its taking me ages to set up everything'. You soon learn to overcome this with extended usage and perseverance, by estimating the subject distance, aperture and shutter speeds and setting this before you even bring the camera to your face. Also bear in mind that Leica are not well known for their electonics take for example the first R8 cameras, maybe its too early to tell if the first batch of M7s will be problem prone. I would personally buy a used M6ttl and spend the rest on the best lens you can afford (2nd hand as well!, theres no point in buying brand new!!)

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), April 19, 2002.

The idea that Leica cameras are always ready to use and can operate in the most extreme conditions can now be challenged.What if the batteries go flat or simply get to cold to operate(from Damiens report).Why do you need automation as in the M7 it defeates the whole idea of having a Leica,better to buy KONICA RF save lots of money and buy a few extra lenses.That is if the two systems are compatible (still not sure).

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

Hi

My 2 cents worth... If budget is not a problem get the M7. The battery issue is, to my mind, minor - just remember to carry spare batteries. The M6 needs batteries as well. The AE allows you to concentrate more on composition after having set the DOF with the aperture ring, (the meter is a spotmeter so you do need to bear that in mind with unusually lit scenes)Also the shutter, being electronic, is supposed to be more accurate in timing If you want to operate the M6 mode, simply go to manual; it will work in exactly the same way as an M6. I also read somewhere that the meter is supposedly more sensitive in low light and more accurate than the M6, although I could not say by how much If you envision using flash, then the M7 gives you more flash options as well All in all, I would say the M7 adds to the M6 and you can have the best of both worlds from it

Greg

-- Gregory Goh (GregoryGoh@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

Frank Bunnik wrote:

...the ae feature...not only makes you faster but also lets you conntrate more on composition.

This is the lie, the siren song of automation: "Automation will make you a better photographer, because it does all these nitty-picky things for you while freeing you to be 'creative' by concentrating on composition."

But if auto-exposure, then why not auto-focus and all the rest?

Karl Yik wrote:

My first impressions of using a M6 were 'What a real pain' and 'damn, its taking me ages to set up everything'. You soon learn to overcome this with extended usage and perseverance, by estimating the subject distance, aperture and shutter speeds and setting this before you even bring the camera to your face.

This is exactly the reason why using a Leica can make one a better photographer. Composition is not the only factor in creating a photograph: distance, shutter speed, and aperture are all creative decisions. Automation makes it possible to make more pictures, more rapidly, but seldom BETTER pictures. Using a Leica requires that one THINK about what one is doing.

As the great photographer Ernst Haas once said, after listening to Popular Photography writer Bob Schwallberg rhapsodize about the latest advance in camera technology: "Ach, Schwapsellberg! Haven't you noticed that cameras keep getting better, but pictures don't get any better?"

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), April 19, 2002.

Please help me understand this: - complaints that M7 is battery dependant. We all carry extra film, how hard is it put put two extra batteries the size of nothing in the bag/tape it to the strap?!?! None issue as far as I'm concerned. - complaints against automation: hats off to the crowd that only wants to shot all manual, but that is not Leica's raison d'etre, their lenses and image quality are. If there is a group of leica owners that feels that they can take better pics by taking advantage of the AE features on the M7 -- more power to them!

Robert, if money is no object, get the M7 and concentrate on taking great picture. I for one would really enjoy the DX automation and the on/off switch (I don't like the set up on the M6). It all also depends on what type of focal lenghts you'll be using, if you can get away w/ a 0.6 vf and want as much automation as possible, the Konica Hexar RF is a great value. Hence, it is no Leica in terms of quality and feel, but it is great shooter and superb value.

If you still cannot get the Leica bug out of your system and looking for true value - a used M6 TTL is the way to go.

cheers, and enjoy

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), April 19, 2002.

If you shoot mainly print film, save a lot of money and get an M6. The exposure latitude of the film (rate ISO 100 films @ EI 64, ISO 400 @ 250 or 320)will cover shutter inaccuracy as well as times when you don't have time to balance the meter diodes completely (i.e. as long as the green diode is on even if one of the arrows is also, or as long as one arrow it lit on an M6 classic).

If you shoot slide film, the M7 is worth the extra cost. If you're not smitten by the idea of it being a Leica, the Konica Hexar RF body is about 1/3 the cost of an M7 and has a built-in power wind/rewind, easier film loading, higher shutter top speed, but lacks TTL flash.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 19, 2002.

Sorry Dave, but I do not agree with you. What is the point of manually setting the shutter speed when in 99% of the cases you choose the speed the light meter tells you and the "automatic"mode would have choosen as well? Why the extra work when it is not necessary?

Frank

-- Frank (frank_bunnik@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

Because, Frank, it causes one to THINK! Most poor photographs are caused by lack of thought. And most of us suffer from mental inertia: we seldom put our brains in gear unless forced to do so. Using a fully manual camera forces us to think about what we are doing, and once the brain is in motion, the law of inertia says it will remain in motion (at least for a while).

If we are forced to think about HOW to make a photograph, we are more likely to think about WHY we're making said photograph and then go on to give appropriate thought to the other creative decisions necessary to the making of a photograph which expresses our vision.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), April 19, 2002.

An immediate disadvantage of having AE would be exposure compensation using the iso dial on the camera body???, compare this to the simple turning of either the aperture ring or the shutter speed dial. Whats faster now?

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), April 19, 2002.

Can I just chime in here again - with the provision that budget is not the issue, in my view the M7 allows you to be both manual and semi-automated - if you want to think 100% manual per the M6 camp, simply don't use the auto mode. On the other hand if you want the AE etc, then use the auto mode. What I like about the M7 is that is offers the first time owner like Robert the choice - like I said, best of both worlds Again just my 2 cents

Greg

-- Gregory Goh (GregoryGoh@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

if you want to think 100% manual per the M6 camp, simply don't use the auto mode.

The manual mode only works on two shutter speeds.In addition M7 users on this Forum have reported shutter lag ,which also seems to be a problem on the Hex RF.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

Come on, Dave, you don't really THINK that AE stops the THINKING, do you? You still have to choose an aperture, see, compose, focus, make sure the speed selected by the AE is right for the shot, change the aperture accordingly, meter on the right spot, maybe compensate and trip the shutter at the right moment. Not to mention picking the right film, lens and filter. How does adding the manual setting of the aperture according to the speed chosen (or the other way around) à la M6 add to the THINKING? If YOUR thinking is jeopardize by AE then maybe your THINKING is a bit weak or something. Very friendly.

Olivier

-- Olivier Reichenbach (olreiche@videotron.ca), April 19, 2002.

I thought the manual mode worked with all speeds.Without the battery you're left with 2 speeds on the M7.

-- Harro de Wilde (hdewilde@uni-one.nl), April 19, 2002.

Yes! two speeds.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

The simple answer is that if you habitually take pictures when you are inebriated, buy an M7, and at such times set automatic exposure. Auto/manual SLR users have been doing it for years.

-- James Elwing (elgur@acay.com.au), April 19, 2002.

M6: set speed and turn aperture= Hand AE

M7: set aperture and camera set speed= camera AE

IMO, you lose nothing. But I hate electronics in a Leica. Its not been proven efficient.

Good luck in your purchase. Some man's poison is another man's gold???

-- Lux (leica@sumicron.com), April 19, 2002.

I think theres a slight confusion here, Manual mode means setting the shutter dial manually, it doesnt mean not having any power in the camera.

Manual mode with batteries gives you all shutter speeds, but no batteries only gives you 2 shutter speeds, which is acutually quite clever being a battery powered shutter mech.

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), April 19, 2002.

M7... or go back to the M3.

If you are worried about batteries , keep a spare set handy - they are small. However, if you are going into the himalayas then maybe it will fail. Other than that the m7 has more flexibility and options - you can choose full manual. If you are cranky about DX film speed - you can set that manually too.

If this is not the "Leica way" then I aplogize but frankly use anything that can best get the job done. Anything <135mm focal length and not moving spastically is M territory. If you need to shoot super tele or a jackrabbit then its time to whip out the big F5 and the AFS lenses for your occasional safari or bird snapping... Lets not even get into macro, underwater and astrophotography.

cheers, John

-- john (johnlktan@yahoo.com), April 19, 2002.

Another thought, I reckon Leica should not have named the M7 something else, which is totally different to the M6, in this way they would have prevented stupid comparisons like the ones that are happening here

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), April 19, 2002.

How about R8m.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

How does adjusting exposure settings manually translate into thinking that results in a better photograph? AE or manually-set E, you're still talking about exposure--not about the photograph. AE just gets you started by choosing one of several variables. The photographer still has to do everything else.

Both cameras rely on electronics. When the batteries on either one die--taking the meters with them--you're still up a pretty good creek. ;>)

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), April 19, 2002.

Someone here posted this interesting quote sometime back :

"What's the difference between film dependent and battery dependent?"

It's true. If you run out of film, you would probably be the same with battery. And if you can get hold of film in the desert, I am sure you can get batteries too.

-- Lux (leica@sumicron.com), April 19, 2002.

you can use a m7 in the same way as as m6, but not the otherway around. although i have no wish to upgrade, if i would buy now, i would go for the m7. the on/off switch is a real bon. i never ever missed DX coding, so this is no point for me. but just to get overhead or from the hip shots right is a big point for the m7 with AE.

BTW: i thought the Amateur Photographer review was terrible. what good is it if someone test such a special kind of equipment with a known long learning curve, who has never really used a leica m? he made some stupid mistakes, like getting the ttl flashmetering wrong and so. there are better reviews around.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), April 19, 2002.

Dave Jenkins writes

>> Because, Frank, it causes one to THINK! Most poor photographs are caused by lack of thought. And most of us suffer from mental inertia: we seldom put our brains in gear unless forced to do so. Using a fully manual camera forces us to think about what we are doing, and once the brain is in motion, the law of inertia says it will remain in motion (at least for a while).

If we are forced to think about HOW to make a photograph, we are more likely to think about WHY we're making said photograph and then go on to give appropriate thought to the other creative decisions necessary to the making of a photograph which expresses our vision. <<

Dave,

No pun intended but I can take the same rationale as you use to demonstrate a strictly manual M6 is even too “modern” for you:

Who needs a TTL metering or even a hand held meter: Lazy guys who are unable to learn exposure tables and use their eyes to guesstimate the exposure (the better of us can expose slides within their 1/3 of a stop limits of course)

Who needs a rangefinder (let alone a coupled one) ? Only lazy guys who can’t guesstimate the distance from the subject

Who needs interchangeable lenses ? Only lazy guys unable to run fast enough to or from the subject to frame it properly

Finally we are ending with a perfect description of the Leica Nul so we negate all the progress embodied in the Leica camera since the first model and up to the M5 included when the Leica camera was still a state of the art piece of photographic device…

For me a “no-brainer” will remain a “no-brainer” and will produce bad images whatever the technology used but for a good photographer by selecting the correct mode he has to use for what pictures he wants to obtain, the more real options he has, the more subjects he will tackle successfully. Only “dumb automation” forced upon the photographer (even partially like all AF devices) in all situations are to be avoided…

I sincerely regret those who are considering themselves as the better guardians of Barnack spirit are so far from the original vision of the founder of the Leica line…

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), April 19, 2002.

I never said that autoexposure keeps one from thinking -- I simply said it doesn't *force* one to think. And most of us will not think very much unless forced to. George Bernard said, "The average man thinks once or twice a year. I have become world famous by thinking once or twice a week."

Having said all that, I must agree that AE may indeed cause an aware photographer to think, and to ask himself if the exposure the camera has chosen for him is the one he wants. If not, why not? Is the narrow angle TTL meter reading the most important part of the scene, for exposure purposes? Is that area lighter or darker than average? Is exposure compensation needed? If so, how much?

If you plan to simply snap away on AE without thinking of all the above factors and using the latitude of the film to cover careless exposure, then sure, the M7 is faster. But if you're going to work through the above decisions before you shoot, I can whip out my trusty incident meter, take a reading, set my camera, and start taking photographs while you're still holding your camera in front of your face and twiddling dials.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), April 19, 2002.

M7 manual mode works with 2 speeds with batteries???? I thought it works with all speeds?

Without batteries it is 2 speeds.

-- Lux (leica@sumicron.com), April 19, 2002.

My my my! Such a lot of mud slinging. You folks certainly do get passionately heated about differences of opinion, don't you?

What's the need to beat the hell out of each other? Dave has a good point in his thinking argument, but why try to shove it down other's throats? And Francios and Oliver are appearently so offended by this snobbishness that they have to become abusive and illogical in their rebuttals?

You know, on second thought, keep going- this is better than Jerry Springer- and the subject matter is infinately more engrossing.

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

Allen, manual mode is not the same as "mechanical mode" (aka without batteries).

-- Lux (leica@sumicron.com), April 19, 2002.

"you can use a m7 in the same way as as m6"

Stephan, only with batteries.

-- Lux (leica@sumicron.com), April 19, 2002.

Definitely buy the M6, the last of the great mechanical Leicas'. Robert, I too read the review - rather underwealmed at best. Having always used a meterless M I am slightly biased but having demoed the M7 I saw no reason to buy one. It is a poor halfway house between a proper mechanical Leica and a fully advantaged automatic one.

Bad points - M7 AE relies on the same limited area reading (spot-ish) and does not have a seperate lock from the shutter button, 2 sec delay on turning camera on, battery dependant (with two limited exceptions), expense, very "busy" distracting vf, long term durability untested...

Do not buy a new M6 though - the market is flooded with hardly used trade-ins, Ffordes have 16, Classic Camera have a dozen - they are all asking far too much (£1100+). They will be forced to drop the prices if they wish to shift them - more M6's will be traded in as M7's come through.

My tip? Hang on for the big International camera fair at Victoria (Photographica) on May 12th - I'm sure there will be some real bargains there!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), April 19, 2002.

A correction: I wrote "Geosrge Bernard" when I meant to write the great "George Bernard Shaw." Sorry for the ommission of his last name.

To Drew:

How is stating an opinion vigorously forcing it down peoples' throats? I have said nothing inflamatory, nor have I attacked anyone's person in any way. And why is it that I am accused of forcing my opinions upon people when other posters on this thread have advanced their opinions with equal vigor?

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), April 19, 2002.

you can use a m7 in the same way as as m6" Stephan, only with batteries.

Thanks for the correction.Without getting into a battery debate it is just nice not have to rely on them.Because batteries last so long it is easy to forget about them and that can easily happen to anyone.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

Hey Drew, you must have had a pretty quiet and innocent life so far to call what I say about Dave's point of view "mud slinging" and "abusive". Now, one must really wonder where the abuse actually lies. No offense, pal.

Olivier

-- Olivier Reichenbach (olreiche@videotron.ca), April 19, 2002.

We all use battery-dependent devices every day and think nothing of it. Laptops, palm-pilots, cell phones, portable phones, pagers, *automobiles*, the list goes on. How many here don't use any of those, because the batteries might die? Who here would refuse an battery-powered implanted heart pacemaker if they needed it? Or would use an ear trumpet instead of a microprocessor hearing aid? Why all of a sudden when it comes to a camera, do some people get all terrified of batteries?

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 19, 2002.

if one really wants to think get a large format camera w/movements. if one wants speed get a leica.

i think leica did a great job w/the m7 considering their audience. carrying extra batteries to me not a big deal, although i never do it, it's just another thing to remember. i travel light, just grab one camera one lens.

i'm not in the market for an m7, one can buy any two m's for the price. leica is counting on a lot of people "upgrading" to the m7 for solvency, think linn hi-fi, i just stopped upgrading, it sounded great then (1987) and it still sounds great.

the m7 is for the experienced m user who knows how to take advantage of the m way of photography, it is not an entry level camera.

summarizing, i don't begrudge the move to ae, it is useful at times. just know your tool.

if i had one it would be nice to "mute" the display. i know the approx speed and don't need to know if it's 1/267 or 1/189 sec. in addition, leave the "inaccurate" gear train for full usability w/dead batteries, murphy's law.

my m3/6 is enough for now.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

Steve ,just said it all,and he takes great photos.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

I have a Mamiya M7 and Nikon FM3a which are very similar in features to the Leica M7 so I offer these comments on some of the issues debated:

I don't find myself tempted to use the AE feature even though it's available. I don't believe having it on the camera will create a lazy uninvolved overautomated photographer in anyone else, either.

The accuracy of an electronically timed shutter is greater than a mechanical one, it has fewer moving parts, and electronic releases have proven robust over the years. Battery consumption is just not an issue since the drain is exceedingly small. (I carry a spare anyway.)

I find the AE mode can sometimes do a better job exposing slide film since it can set the shutter at in-between speeds. For B&W and color print film the exposure latitude makes half-stop exposure "errors" inconsequential.

The M7 looks to me like it continues the Leica tradition of producing elegant, beautiful photographic tools. I want one. And an M6. But for now, the taxman has spoken, so I must wait.

-- Don Karon (kc6d@arrl.net), April 19, 2002.

I would buy a s/h M6 or M6TTL as you will save money and get the classic Leica experience. The M7, although people are liking it, is more of a risk. You have to buy new and there may well be glitches or reliability issues that have not come to light yet.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), April 22, 2002.