I'm curious about the AE feature of the M7. Of course this is the big thing with this camera, besides, appearently, the real On/Off switch.

First off, with the wide spot meter in this camera, the AE wouldn't seem to be that much of a benefit. You have to move the camera around across your subject area to find the area that will give proper reading (a mid tone), then hold down the button, recompose- while focusing somewhere in this process- and then shoot. How does this speed things up? You don't have to turn the shutter speed dial. Very well. But it still seems to me that AE works better with a broader meter, like the classic Nikon center-weighted one, or the newer matrix meters.

Personally I like the spot meter- I know where the choices are coming from- my head.

More Important: People here have bemoaned the lack of AE lock button. Why do you need that? Isn't that called

-- Andrew Dailinger (swordfisher@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002

Answers

MANUAL METERING?

I mean, you're talking about setting the exposure at one spot and leaving it there.

Knowing full well that I'm inviting a flaming, somebody please tell me where I'm missing the point?

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

there is nothing "spot" about any of the leica in-camera meters.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), April 19, 2002.

What "wide spot meter" are we talking about here? The meter in the M7 is exactly the same as that in the M6. I have found that to be pretty accurate under "normal" conditions, and suspect you (and others who have voiced similarly) are overdoing this a bit. Lets wait for a goodly amount of feedback from M7 users before flaming Leica shall we?

-- Tim Franklin (tim_franklin@mac.com), April 19, 2002.

i must agree with the general point that the meter area of these cameras does seem a little silly -- not center weighted averaging, not spot. however, in my experience, the meter is rather predictable, and once you get used to it, it is fairly easy to compensate for its eccentricities. however, that kind of compensation is much better suited to a manual camera, where you are setting exposure anyway. no additional time is spent dialing in compensation. in an automatic camera (like the m7), it would make MUCH!!!! more sense to have a good center weighted averaging pattern that would actually work without compensation for most situations. either that or a tightish spot as in the CL (but with lock). both the reviews i have read of the m7 made the point that the meter pattern is awkward for an AE camera -- the amateur photogrpaher review really hammered this point. i don't know what could be done to revise the pattern -- maybe it's easy, maybe it's hard. if it's the former, maybe leica will someday offer different meter patterns (a la the late lamented contax sp) in addition to different mags. don't poo-poo this issue. the whole raison d'etre of the m7 is AE. if the meter pattern is ill-suited to set and forget AE use then what's the point. all you've got is an m6 that won't work in cold weather. and please don't yell at me eliot!!

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), April 19, 2002.

I have to say that the majority of the time when I meter with an M6 I just get the two arrows or the center dot to light up, and I push the button. The times when this won't be close enough are few (in my style of shooting) and easy to recognize.

Given that, I think the M7 AE function is going to be useful over 95% of the time for me. Certainly the film I've shot with it so far has all been AE, and has been uniformly well-exposed. It's all been on Provia 100, which tends to make metering problems glaringly obvious.

The well-known Canadian PJ Ted Grant repeatedly admonishes the LUG to keep it simple, stupid - just light up the arrows and shoot. He's been working that way with the M6 since 1985, and he's head-over- heels in love with the M7 as a result. The amount of his published material that has been successfully exposed with this brain-dead philosophy would put us all to shame.

Now maybe my standards for correct exposure are lower than others', but IMO the whole "M7 meter is bad for AE" worry is a product of the mental gymnastics that so often substitute for exposing film.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), April 19, 2002.

If the subject is centered and mid-toned, AE is faster, just compose and shoot. If the overall scene averages to mid-tone and there aren't extremes of contrast beyond the film's recording range, AE is faster, just compose and shoot. If you are shooting print film and the overall scene isn't more than about 5 stops from dark to light, just compose and shoot. AE is faster.

If you're shooting slide film, or there's a great contrast difference, or the subject is not middle-toned or smaller than the metering circle, you have to make compensations with the manual M6 as well...adjusting the aperture (and perhaps refocusing to get the DOF you need, after consulting the scale on the lens), maybe even need to choose a different shutter speed. AE is still faster, just meter the area you want, hold the reading, recompose and shoot. Usually it isn't even necessary to use the compensation dial on an AE camera, if you want + or - the subject reading, just move the camera around until it reads such, hold the reading, recompose and shoot. In practice it is much faster than doing it manually, especially with a Leica. With SLR's where there's a manual bar-graph marked in 1/3 or 1/2 stops 3 stops either side of "0", and you can adjust shutter speed and aperture with two dials under your thumb and forefinger, it's a lot faster than a Leica where you have LED's that only indicate +/- 1 stop, adjusting the shutter speed and aperture requires 2 hands, and neither is visible in the viewfinder.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 19, 2002.

I'm not flaming Leica here. I am interested in the M7, for two reasons, neither of which is AE. One is the more accurate and quieter shutter- the other is the real on/off switch.

My point is as Paul and Roger suggest- that the meter patter of the M6/M7 is not as well suited to AE as a real center weighted meter. No it's not a spot meter in this camera, but neither is it a center weighted one. Actually, I really like the meter in my M6 because of this tight center or really wide spot meter.

But the point I am most interested in is the fact that people have complained about the lack of an AE lock feature. And what's the difference between locking in an AE exposure and just setting the camera manually?

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

The only people who could complain of the lack of an AE lock feature on the M7 are either 1)those who are talking through their hats, and 2)those who believe that real men don't read instruction manuals. The M7 has an AE lock, you just hold the shutter button halfway. In fact the M6TTL has the same AE lock, for no practical reason other than Leica probably had the M7 on the table when the M6TTL was released.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 19, 2002.

Most of the time, the AE will orperate with no ptoblem.

however, in strong back light subjects, you need to adjust the light metering.

Is AE helping? Well, I think yes as you lock exposure on the speed you want, compose and take the photo.

On the R7, this feature exists (along with narrow metering) and it's nice to use. Of course, AE works better with integral metering but a Minox 35 is the counter-exemple.

FWIW. X.

-- Xavier d'Alfort (hot_billexf@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

The only problem with the AE lock on the M7 comes when you use a motor and want to shoot a sequence of photos. If you use AE, the exposure lock only works for the first frame (this is another area where the Hexar RF is technically superior to the M7). But, if you know that's going to be a problem, just set the shutter speed like you would with an M6 and fire away.

I'm having a hard time understanding what all the foofaraw is about. It's not rocket science, folks.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), April 19, 2002.

i think there is actually utility in discussing how the m7 (or any current production camera) can be improved. many companies actually respond to consumer demand, and leica has been a lot more consumer oriented since the reorg. also, with an electronic camera, it may be easier/less costly to make revisions since rewriting software is a lot easier/less costly than retooling. further, i think a site like this is at its best when users (especially of new gear) report their impressions/problems for the benfit of those considering purchases. unlike some others here, i really don't look to this site for aesthetic input. it really is a gear site, and comments on any aspect of leica gear should be welcomed. and i promise, the rise or fall of leica does not hinge (entirely anyway) on how the m7 is treated by the folks here.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), April 19, 2002.

Pros and Cons, depending on the situation...

If you are shooting print film in relatively consistent lighting (+/- 1 stop), then a "fixed" exposure from the non AE camera (or M7 in manual) will give consistent images, and not get occasionally "fooled" by overly bright or overly dark tones falling in the metering circle.

OTOH if the light is changing significantly, or you're shooting reversal film and the light changes by 1/2 stop or more, re-metering will be required which is going to be faster to deal with on a camera with AE. Also, the AE will give the precise shutter speed required (ie 1/348th) which can be a significant bennefit with slide film.

I hate to admit it, but in most shooting situations the M7 is going to out-perform the non-AE M's, because you have the ability to use it manual as well.

However, there is the issue of battery failure with the M7 leaving you "stranded" with only 2 shutter speeds, albeit 2 very useful shutter speeds. The solution is simple however; carry plenty of spare batteries if you use an M7. The remaining issues are durability, which is yet to be detrermined for the M7, and cost, which is clearly an advantage of the non-AE M's.

When the price comes down, and the durability issue has had some time to prove itself, I expect I'll own an M7. Or two.

Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), April 19, 2002.

Pat and I shoot slides, almost exclusively. I still use an M4 and an incident light meter. Pat uses our M6. We are now the owners of an M7.

I put it into manual and use the outpurt of my Sekonic 308B to set apature and shutter speed. Pat puts it into Auto, composes, and shoots away - - giving her the same exposure results as if she were using the M6.

For both of us, given a "wild" exposure problem, we can switch to Auto, meter the Zone 4 of what we want to catch, freeze the exposure time, quickly recompose and shoot away.

Now, what's wrong with that?

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), April 19, 2002.

It really is a gear site

Really.do you own the site.Suggest you start your own site if you just want gear.Friendly.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

Hey, Allen, what is your problem, man? Didn't you get there by clicking on a topic called «Some thoughts on M7 AE»? What did you expect? A discussion on the merits of studying Saint-Augustine through the writings of Plotin or something? This is a free photography site, dedicated to Leica and there are lots and lots of interesting topics, including gear ones. The site is opened to everybody. Even to you. Welcome. But you don't HAVE to be here. There are thousands of forums all over the internet. Cheers,

Olivier

-- Olivier Reichenbach (olreiche@videotron.ca), April 20, 2002.

Even to you. Welcome

Why thanks Oliver, just passing a comment about only being a gear site,no need for the lecture.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 20, 2002.

I handled another M7 today in a local shop. The first thing that happened when the salesman pulled it out of the display case: the battery cover came off and the batteries ejected. The battery cover apparently isn't screw threaded ala M6TTL, but rather a half-turn locking(?) design. Hmmm. Also, the battery cover appears to be everyone's favorite material: plastic. Also plastic(?)on the M7: the frameline preview lever.

And I still don't like the tiny LEDs in manual mode. I'm really trying not to M7-bash here, more like trying to talk myself out of buying one. I'm at least going to wait awhile until the kinks are worked out and the price drops several hundred.

-- Ken Geter (kgeter@yahoo.com), April 20, 2002.

Ken. The battery cover bayonets on and off. When it is bayonetted on it will NOT come off. This is most certainly not a design kink.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), April 20, 2002.

You know what, Elliot? I can bet you the battery cover WILL come off one day and drop. So much so that I already ordered a spare. Now, if Leica can deliver it to my local distributor in less than six months, I'll be the happiest of Leica shooters. I still love the M7.

Olivier

-- Olivier Reichenbach (olreiche@videotron.ca), April 21, 2002.

Oliver. Maybe so. My only point was that when Ken's dealer's M7 battery cover popped off, it was probably because it was not bayonetted onto the camera (user error, not Leica error). The bayonet (rather than screw in) idea is fine, but I too would like to have seen a metal battery cap with metal bayonet mount.

The point about the plastic is that it's useful life will depend upon how many times one opens and closes the battery compartment. Thus it may or may not wear out. I also don't like the fact that the on-off switch is plastic; and this switch mechanism is more likely to wear out than the battery cap.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), April 21, 2002.