My wife and I are going to China (Beijing, Xian and Shanghi)this coming Nov with a tour group. After this trip, I am not sure when I will have the opportunity to go there in the near future again; so I want to make this trip count....photographically speaking:). My dilemma is this, what should I bring with me? I have decided to take my Leica M6 with 35lux/90cron to capture the streets and its action; but then, the H'blad with 50mm/80mm would be fantastic with the scenery and architecture. My wife has promised me that she will carry "some" equipment for me :).

With that in mind, should I carry one system only or should I take both? Would the different ways of seeing between the Leica and H'blad be a problem?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

-- Tommy Chung (dr_tommychung@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002

Answers

These are obviously questions that only you yourself can answer because no one can know how strongly you want medium format landscapes versusu your other types of photography; or how important your photography is to you. In my case, I take better and more picture the less equipment I carry; and also enjoy a trip more if I don't have to lug a lot of equipment and worry about leaving it in hotel rooms. Also, whether different ways of seeing with different equipment is a problem also depends on you. I don't think anyone can meaningfully answerf your question. If it were, me I would bring less rather than more; but other people would do the opposite. Who is right? Everyone is: for himself or herself.

-- Mitch Alland (malland@mac.com), April 19, 2002.

Wow I'm envious of your trip! Me, I'd just take my Leica (35-75 lux), and add on a wide angle lens to my collection, maybe the 21 or 24 to suck in that Great Wall! *grin* Expensive though, maybe I'd rent it.

-- james (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

Maybe a monopod or tripod would maximize your image quality as well, with the monopod being more conducive to group activities.

-- james (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

i worked in china for more than a year. very interesting fast changing place. is the three gorges on your itinerary, highly recommended before they are drownded.

leave the blad, too heavy and not much film/processing avail. i bring the swc and film because it's compact.

expand your lens range to the super wides, like a voigt. 21 and 15, the leica being too pricy. you'll need it in xian (terra cotta warriors - secret hip shots, as they don't allow photo's). if you don't like the voigt's they seem to have a pretty good resale as people like to play w/them.

nov. is a good time to go as it's cooler, another reason to leave the blad at home. let the wife/camera bag/assist. carry a table top in her purse, i do.

at the great wall go to both sites mutanyou and badaling. walk to the unrestored places for some peace and a picnic, another reason to leave the blad, it gets steep and rough. get away from the tour group and their schedules, hire a driver outside your hotel ($30- 40/day), don't hire the driver from your hotel, much more $$$. ming tombs and summer palace is more than a bit boring, but i guess while your near it's a must do.

enjoy.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

My wife went to China several years ago on an official PRC -USG scientific exchange program. She was a party of one, and she was accompanied throughout her extended stay by her interpreter and, wherever she went, with the local "KGB" Chinese security agent, often posing as her driver. She took our M4, an incident light meter, 35mm and 50mm 'chrons and a potload of 100 and 400 slide film.

Some of the places she went, such as the Ming Tombs, she couldn't photograph, as the Chinese Government was intent on selling their slides of the place. (read $$$); however, she took unlimited photos in the Forbidden City, the Great Wall, Xian (except for the Terra Cotta Soldier multitudes), Shanghai, and Beiijing.

Listening what she went through, GO LIGHT! For her, it was 35mm territory; however, she wished that she had taken our 90mm TE instead of the 50 'summicron for those shots in the Forbidden City that just can't be taken with a normal or wide andle lens.

One other thing. As you know, the Chinese Democratic Republic still considers *ALL* Chinese to be citizens of the mainland. When my wife was there in the late '80s, there were separate accommodations for the non-Chinese foreigners, the "Overseas Chinese," and the mainland Chinese. The "Overseas Chinese" weren't treated with anywhere the same levels of comfort, attention and respect as the non-Chinese foreigners. Her advice to our US Chinese friends - - even today - - is: "Don't Get Separated From Your Group."

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), April 19, 2002.

i am first gen. abc: amer. born chinese and i found that i was treated w/greater curiosity, closeness, respect and deference and never a "traitor" than my white boy collegues. i worked there in '95/96. and enjoyed most of the time spent there. a bit off topic.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

My opinion is different. I always travel overseas with a medium format camera, and I don't carry 35mm because I don't want to have to deal with the different film formats. I figure it will be a long time before I get the opportunity to shoot in those places again and I usually make large prints. Locally, it's different, as I can usually go back and shoot again. I have not once regretted traveling with the larger format.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 19, 2002.

As both a Leica and Hasselblad shooter I sympathize with your dilemma, however I have a hard and fast rule not to mix formats as it involves lugging too much equipment and film. In your situation I would do one of two things, either a)take the Leica but purchase a Tri-Elmar, which I guarantee you will use for 75% of your photography, the other 20% with the 90 and 5% with the 35 Lux after dark. Or, take the Blad and the 50, provided you have an eyelevel prism. You can crop the images to the equivalent of 100mm and 150mm and still have a piece of film at least as big as a 35mm neg.

If you take the Leica, bring some kind of backup, either another M or a Hexar RF or even a P&S, in case of disaster with your one M6. If you bring the Blad, you could always purchase a Seagull TLR in China!

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 19, 2002.

I always travel overseas with a medium format camera.

You must have missed a lot of good photos,i am amazed by your statement.Meduim format is excellent for statics poor for anything else..try a whole plate lot better than medium format if quality is your only goal.Still amazed!

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

I would bring M with extra body. Wide angles are a must, bring extra wides for unsual shots. I have been to China about 6 or 7 times and carry extra weight is definitely not the way to enjoy the trip or get the right shots. Monopod would also help in many places. Have a good time!

-- Tim Tan (kctan18@yahoo.com), April 19, 2002.

Take the 'Blad. In my last trip to Italy (Sep 2001) I took a 2000FC/M with 50, 80 and 150. I also took a Pentax Spotmatic with a 19mm Sigma. I realized that I need a FAST wide angle.

This Sep my wife and I are headed to Portugal and Spain. I will take the 'Blad with 80mm & 150, and my IIIG with 28 f/1.9 Voigtlander and my Leica IF with the 15mm & 21mm Voightlander lenses. I will also take the 90mm f/4 Elmar and 50mm f/1.8 Canon as they are so small. While I'll miss the 50mmf/2.8 it weighs a lot.

Tony

-- Tony Oresteen (aoresteen@mindspring.com), April 19, 2002.

I was in China (only Beijing and surrounding areas) last month. I traveled very light - one 35mm camera, one 35mm lens. I think I regret this approach. I particularly wanted a longer lens, perhaps 90 or even 135. There is so much to see, yet often lots of ugly "background noise" that one wishes to remove. This is easier with a longer lens. Also, in China it seems to be not as easy to simply move closer (lots of restricted areas) when you want something to fill the frame. Since much of my photography was of buildings, I don't think a wider lens (24 or 21) would have helped me, since I don't like the distortion this gives to buildings when looking up at them. However, there are areas, especially in the Forbidden City and Temple of Heaven, where you can certainly use a wider lens if you like that perspective. Your thought about taking a Hasselblad is interesting, because this would allow the use of a wide lens on a leveled camera, then cropping the lower part of the frame to achieve a shift effect, without converging vertical lines.

I had no problems with photographing the Ming tombs, Temple of Heaven, Forbidden City, or around Tiananmen Square. If you want to go into Mao's mausoleum, you must deposit all camera gear outside before entering. It's not enough to simply put your camera in your bag.

But I felt quite rushed by the tour guide. I was part of a tour for 2 days, and then had a few days free. The free days were much more enjoyable for photography. For an interesting look at people, get up at dawn and go to a major public park. The park near the Temple of Heaven or the Park on the north side of the Forbidden City (sorry, can't remember the names) are wonderful places to watch people, and there will be many people out at that hour, most of them seniors doing Tai Chi, taking walks, or greeting the day by shouting loudly. Candids of people were quite easy, as there was so much activity, and the light was wonderful at that hour. Even if you have a scheduled tour of the Forbidden City, you might consider leaving the group and wandering by yourself, or coming back on another day when you can walk freely. There is so much to see and photograph there, much more than you can see on one day with a tour group. I was never stopped from carrying or using a tripod, so perhaps you can go with a deliberative, medium format approach, and can get away from a group.

-- Masatoshi Yamamoto (masa@nifty.co.jp), April 19, 2002.

Leica M6 with 35lux/90cron to capture the streets and its action; but then, the H'blad with 50mm/80mm would be fantastic with the scenery and architecture.

Good choice cannot think of better.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

i am amazed by your statement.Meduim format is excellent for statics poor for anything else

Nonsense. I seriously doubt you've tried it if you say this.

The Rush, Copyright 2000 Jeff Spirer

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 19, 2002.

Meduim format is excellent for statics poor for anything else

A static photo with someone walking passed out of focus,need i say more.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

Jeff if you really believe that you can get the same photos with a medium format....welcome to the planet dream on.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

OOF? Nah, slow shutter speed. That's where the super fast Leica lenses save the day.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

A static photo with someone walking passed out of focus,need i say more.

I'd like to point out that this is motion blur. The photo is hardly static.

I hip shoot with medium format also, as do other people I know:

Danzante, Copyright 1998 Jeff Spirer

Go back to studying photography, look at the work done by Manuel Alvarez Bravo, who shot on the street with a portable large format camera, or Mariana Yampolski, who does documentary work with medium format.

Let's try it once again, it's the photographer and not the tools.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 19, 2002.

OOF? Nah, slow shutter speed. That's where the super fast Leica lenses save the day

I would like to point out that this was intentional. I often stop down to get movement in the image.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 19, 2002.

Let's try it once again, it's the photographer and not the tools.

A cliche.What the medium format photographer gained he lost at least 10 times as much.Your photo was a static aimed at the person sitting down.Do not try to make it otherwise.Okay! lets us all get big bulky medium formats they are great for action photos...get real.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

Tommy:

Having been to China 3 times, I don't think it poses any photographic problems that don't also apply to travel to other countries. So writing generally, I would vote for traveling as light as possible, which would mean jettisoning the 'blad (I've never used 1 in the field, but I know that they're pretty big & heavy). Although your wife may tell you right now that she's willing to be your equipment bearer, that might change quickly once you're a few days into your trip! Of course, as another poster noted, this is a question only you can really answer--do you really think you would regret not having the big negatives/slides? If so, then it's certainly worth bringing the 'blad, but if not, don't bother. Use it or lose it!

BTW, as to George Berger's reference to different treatment for overseas Chinese, there's some element of truth to it. I'm a 2nd generation Chinese-American (meaning I was born in the U.S.), & while my ability to speak Chinese is abysmal, I understand enough to know what the locals are saying. Many mainlanders are definitely annoyed by overseas Chinese tourists who they perceive to be whiny, haughty, & spoiled (particularly those from Taiwan & Hong Kong) & will take every opportunity to put them in their place (if only by charging them extra). However, the same disdain applies to other annoying foreign tourists & tourists from other parts of China, so you can't generalize too much. I've occasionally been treated rudely because the locals thought I was Japanese, which I've become accustomed to in Europe, but didn't expect in the motherland (I guess my Chinese is really that bad)!

-- Chris Chen (Wash., DC) (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), April 19, 2002.

Sorry but to focus on a wall waiting fot someone to walk pass is not really the desive moment,again another static.Bye Bye a silly conversation.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 19, 2002.

I rather like the blurred motion. Interesting contrast to the motionless sitting person. Yes, in this case you did not need a fast lens. But what's the fastest Hasselblad normal lens? f/2.8?

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

Tommy,

Have you ever traveled with a tour group before? Everything is just getting on and off a bus to yet another tourist trap. I would just leave the 'blad at home and bring the Leica. I practically work in China and pretty much know where the tour will take you. I suggest you pick up a wide angle perhaps a 21mm. It will come in handy in Beijing when you tour the Hutongs. In China you can pretty much shoot all day long due to the permanent overcast so do bring lots of film unless you only shoot Kodak and Fuji consumer films both of which China has plenty. The places you will be going are crowded with all types of tourist all year around so the only time you will have any real solitude will be if you get up at 4am for that early morning roll. Have fun!

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), April 19, 2002.

(Tony, forgive me in advance.)

Sorry but to focus on a wall waiting fot someone to walk pass is not really the desive moment,again another static.Bye Bye a silly conversation.

Alan, you're an ass.

Everything I say is based on tens and tens of thousands of negatives. From what I can tell, everything you say is based on conjecture and bullshit.

Anyone who would like to know how the photograph above was made can click here

to see how it was made. This was written several years ago when I was asked to document this photo.

It's really unfortunate that this board has to tolerate the idiotic rantings of a teenager who doesn't appear to have used a camera. Especially when they spew bullshit about how I took my photos.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 19, 2002.

I'll have to agree that Allen is talking out of the side of his face on this one.

I've travelled overseas with a Mamiya 6 on several occasions and it's certainly the case that while you can't take pictures in the dark with the slower lenses, under most conditions the camera only has a few disadvantages for handheld street and travel work when compared with a Leica or whatever.

In fact, the Mamiya rangefinders, if anything, are weaker on a tripod because all RF cameras are just sort of a pain to use on the tripod for me. You can't judge DOF in the viewfinder, which makes composition and focussing hard.

As for the original question... I think only you can answer the question: will I be willing to carry the extra weight of the larger cameras. This is something only you can answer for yourself. Everyone has a different answer for different reasons.

-- Pete Su (psu@kvdpsu.org), April 19, 2002.

For me, shooting action with a Hasselblad (and eyelevel prism) is no harder or easier than with a Leica M or any manual-focus, manual wind SLR. I would rather shoot action with a Pentax or Mamiya AF 645 than a manual-focus 35mm camera. The biggest problem with medium-format vs 35mm is the relatively slow lenses, shallower DOF at equivalent angles of coverage, and weight and bulk of the equipment, all of which conspire to make action photography more of a challenge...but hardly an impossibility or a foolish undertaking.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 19, 2002.

I guess it matters what kind of prints you want to make.For 11x14 and under a Leica will do just fine with 50asa.If you want 20x24s me thinks medium format is better.You might have more keepers with a medium format though.I personally would bring a Leica with 2 or3 lenses and a Rollie Twin or Brooks Veriwide...both smallish medium format cameras.Probably the Leica with color and B+W loaded into the medium format for juicy 20x24's!If I were really wanting to go raw and minimalist...just a rollie twin or a Leica with fast 50 or 35mm.My brother used to work in China as a physicist for 3 to 6 months at a time...he warned about the really lousy food/meal quality there.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), April 19, 2002.

I agree that it's a question of whether you willing to carry the extra weight/bulk. When I lived in Korea, I used my Pentax 645 as often as I did 35mm. It's nice to have those big negatives!

Regarding medium format only being suitable for static subjects: nonsense! I've regularly used MF for people/street/documentary photography. It can even be used at night (though it's use in the dark is more limited than the Leica).

(Sorry, don't have any of my nighttime medium format work from foreign lands scanned.)

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 19, 2002.

Mike Dixon, love that photo, especially that I am listening to Days of the New "Touch Peel and Stand" song that just came on my gf's computer play list, quite a coincidence huh?

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 19, 2002.

If you "want to make the trip count. . . . photographically", you should ensure that you'll have time to linger where you want to photograph. The tour groups that I happened to encounter when I traveled in China seemed to allow barely enough time for quick ritual camera exchanges as the members rearranged themselves for iterative group portraits before they marched off behind their guides to the next site of interest.

I took my Mamiya 7, BTW, but the decision to slow down and see more by "seeing" less made more of a difference than any possible equipment choice.

-- Brian Walsh (brian.walsh@sbcglobal.net), April 19, 2002.

The 2nd time I was in China (the first time it was with the family Canon AE1), I had 2 SLR bodies, several wide lenses, and a 70-210/4. I used the latter a lot for lots of intimate candid portraits, and the 28 often for scenics and street photog, and a Yash T4. The tripod came out once- at Tiger Leaping Gorge on the Yangtze. All but the tripod fit in a Domle F6. Kind of a schlep.

This last time, just last month, when my sister adopted a baby boy. I had an M6, 35/2A, 90/2.8, Hexar AF, and an old Rolleiflex Automat for scenics, a table top tripod, and a small flash, which I never used. The Hexar became deadwt in the fog of Huangshan, but revived once we were near the Tibetan highlands. I think I would do it again. I was rusty on the Rollei tho', and the Hexar was faster for me for st. photog than the Leica. But in terms of reliability, the Leica was right on (just had to get extra batteries as it's a TTL- not too hard to find- and Fuji film too- easy and cheap to get).

One last datapoint- a trip to Ecuador (Quito, Banos, rainforest) and the Galapagos was very nicely documented with the Hexar AF and an SLR w/ the 70-210. All fit in a small/med. fanny pack. Super simple.

I think simpler is better. This is another thing: despite all the beautiful scenary we saw, I used the Rollei rarely. One thing that's a bummer about traveling in China is that if you hire a taxi driver to take you around, you don't always have the luxury of stopping at really good points and taking a good picture. Not to mention being a tour bus. It just doesn't seem to happen, and I have many shots through a moving taxi window- hardly the contemplative photography that you might expect to do with a Hassy. So... if you don't think you'll have much control over where you go- and it sounds like you're on a tour- you might find yourself unable to use your MF eqpt in as contmplative and controlled a fashion that you might be used to. Rather, photography will be more opportunistic. That, at least, is how it's been for me.

It sure is interesting to hear different people's takes on China. I have to differ with Chris and George tho'. However, I've only been with my family, and so it's different- people show much respect for my mom, and I'm just the quiet kid carrying that black bag everywhere.

I first visited China in 1986 with my family- it was a great time, as the country was just opening up. And we were viewed completely as foreigners, well, hua-chiao (sp?)- overseas chinese. And people stared and stared. In Beijing there was nothing to do in the evenings. People socialized, rode their bikes along the many unlit streets. It was a different planet for me, being born and raised in the US. China was a flower that was just opening. And it seems as you go inland today, it seems like that still.

Then we went again in 98, and how it's changed! Platform shoes, cell phones, people think I'm a native, photo studios, music stores, Sam's Club (yes!), US fast food, you name it. BJ changes very fast- my sister went there for work a year later, and the awesome little dumpling joint we went to was gone. Who knows about the Mongolian hot pot rest. down the alley from the hotel, or the Muslim-run breakfast place- rice congee and man-tou? Mmm!

Have a great trip- and be sure to get up early and walk about the cities. There are tons of neat activity in the morning, in the parks, from old folks walking backwards doing qi-gong to fan dance, ballroom dancing, tai-ji, sword play, chess, markets setting up, etc. etc. Also, while you never know when you might be back again, it might be a lot sooner than you expected. I never dreamed I'd be back in far western Yunnan Province, near the Burmese border and Tibet, but we were there again. Pretty magical.

-- TW (tsesung@yahoo.com), April 20, 2002.

The photography posted in this thread so far (by Mike and Jeff) is fantastic, and I would listen to these fellows.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 20, 2002.

Allen, you're reeeeeeeealy wrong about medium format. Really so. Man...... wow. *whew* I know, the world is flat. Discovered by NASA yesterday, right?

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 20, 2002.

Tsesung:

As far as your recommendation to get up early for photo opportunities, I would add that it can also pay to stay up late. One thing that I enjoyed about the big cities in China (Shanghai, Beijing, Wuhan, Chongqing, etc.) was that they're true 24-hour cities, w/a lot of interesting street life going on @ all hours (unlike most American center cities, which shut down early & don't have any significant population density after dark).

Actually, I don't think our experiences have been that different. I enjoyed visiting China & the rapidity of social & economic change there is indeed amazing. Every time I've been there, I was w/my parents & *they* were always treated w/respect. I also didn't have a problem getting along w/folks most of the time, despite my pathetic Chinese (I was *never* mistaken for a native). But I definitely overheard a lot of complaints about overseas Chinese visitors & got the impression that the locals, @ least those in the heavily touristed areas, are willing to cut a lot more slack for your typical tourist stupidity (e.g., getting lost, not following directions, etc.) when it comes from non-Chinese visitors than when overseas Chinese or even Chinese from the sticks do the exact same things (maybe they just have lower standards for "barbarians" or think they have more money). It's not surprising; heck, sometimes I feel the same way about the various tourists who inundate Washington every spring & summer.

-- Chris Chen (furcafe@ NOSPAMcris.com), April 20, 2002.

Allen, to take it a step further, look at Sally Mann's extraordinary large format work - it's very fast reaction, intimate, unposed. I think if you use any tool long enough, you'll be able to get what you want from it.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), April 20, 2002.

I am planning a trip to southern eastern China. Small waterway towns like Tai Chang ( famous as the embarking port of Zheng Ho who made seven great voyages in early 15 century, to as far as east coast of Africa. A British historian through 14 research, recently claimed he believe zheng Ho discovered America 72 years before Columbus, and rounded the globe a century before Magellan, his evidence seems credible, as Zheng Ho's Treasure Ship was 400 feet long,leading then the largest navy in the world of 100 ships nearly 30,000 crews Colubmus boat was less then 90 feet ), Tong Li, Lochi etc.

My usuall travel kit: R5+ Vario Elmar 28-70, Contax T2, Minox TLX, Minox C, B, 35ML.

Medium format is still quite popular in China. Recent Popular Photography has a good words on made in Shanghai Seagull 107 TLR

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), April 20, 2002.

Hello All;

I have been travelling extensively in China and Asia for 4 years and still am.

China today is not the China of teh 80s. I travel all over by myself and walk in all cities with never any hassle- no secret police no attached interpreters nothing-mayo!

I take an M6 with a 35 and 50 mm amd a Nikon F90 or FM3a with a 28- 105mm zoom. On other ocasions I take teh leica and a Konica Hexar with a fixed 35mm lens.

For a tourist type trip to the places mentioned, I would take a light tripod, the Leica with a 500mm as wellas teh others and a good P&S like a Olympus Micron etc.

You can buy just about any film in China- at least on Wang Fushing Lu ( A great new camera store across from the restored catholic church) as wellas a light chinese tripod, which is OK and cheap enough to give away to a greatful local when you leave.

Film processing - C41- is also available all over China at Kodak minilabs- watch out for scratched negs tho.

IN Shanghai there is an excellent lab for E 6 on Nanjing RD. 5 min walk from the Bund - Long Guan Camera Store -.

Medium format is great but if you are on an itinerary, keep it light. I do not have to follow an itinerary so I take my Chinese Seagul 6x6 TLR.

If you can find one there teh one with teh 4 element 3 group lens is teh ONLY one to get, that is an excellent choice. The stores I mentioned carry a full line of Kodak, Fuji and some Ilford films, so you don't have to trake too many.

Most Chinese airports use modern X Ray machines so hand checking X Rays are safe.

Make sure you see the inner city wall in Xian as well as the stone age village near teh 10 000 Terra Cotta soldiers.

If you want more detailed locations of stores and services, E Mail me separately.

Cheers

-- richard ilomaki (richardjx@hotmail.com), April 20, 2002.

Thankyou all for your thoughtful answers. Thanks to Jeff and Mike for their regular wonderful photos again!!

It will be hard to leave the H'blad at home; so I will continue to think about it in the coming months.

I like the idea on bringing the leica with an extra body though......maybe a way of convincing my wife that I really do need another leica M :).

-- Tommy Chung (dr_tommychung@hotmail.com), April 20, 2002.

I think if you use any tool long enough, you'll be able to get what you want from it.

I agree but fot travel,action,street the 35mm is the right tool(as you are well aware).

Tony,i do not believe Nasa has proved the world is flat or medium format is the right tool for as discussed above.Yes reeeeealy.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 20, 2002.

Simply restating a position over and over does nothing to refute the evidence demonstrating that the position is bullshit.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 20, 2002.

Just want to share some of my own travel experience in China:

(1) Travel as light as possible, especially when you're exploring on your own; keep everything together in one bag.

(2) Bring wideangle lenses; an ultra-wide of 21mm or wider is extremely useful.

(3) Print films are readily available but good slide films, such as Velvia, Provia, Ektachrome, etc., are not (they are available, but you have to know where to find them), except in the more "international" cities like Hong Kong, Macau, Shanghai and Beijing.

(4) Film format; I haven't tried carrying more than two systems but I would like to try bringing a 6x6 TLR in addition to a 35mm SLR or rangefinder. I do have friends who bring their Hasselblads on trips to the mountains to photograph the landscape; one carries a Hassy SWC with his Nikons or Leicas on most trips, although he moans about the weight at times! Given that you're won't be travelling to China again soon, I would suggest that you bring the two camera systems you mentioned, as they don't seem too unmanageable and you can carry all of them in one bag.

(5) Politically, China has loosen up a lot, espeically now that it's entered the WTO. There're no minders or secret police watching over you and you can photograph almost everything, except military installations in certain sensitive areas (that applies to many other countries, not just China). On certain official tours, I do have official "hosts" following me everywhere (most were just regular university students but on one occassion I had the deputy director of the local party school tagging along!), but they were just being hospitable in the Mainland-Chinese way, and were in no way keeping an eye on me!

Have a good trip!

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), April 21, 2002.

Should have said better tool for all reasons we all know.

position is bullshit.

Yes Mike you are always right,just expressing my humble thoughts.Sorry.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), April 21, 2002.

Slip in a new Lenspen for cleaning lenses

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), April 21, 2002.

Should have said better tool for all reasons we all know.

Yes Mike you are always right,just expressing my humble thoughts.Sorry.

There's a very significant difference between expressing your own thoughts and telling everyone else what their thoughts are (and continuing to do so even after they've made it very clear that those are not their thoughts).

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 21, 2002.

i guess Jeff Spirer just waits and every so often pounces on us Leicaphiles taking no prisoners!He is so darn right!I prefer my Leicas BUT must admit using my Rollie,the two lens beast,with no extra lenses,i ALWAYS have more "keepers" per roll!In fact the Rollie is smaller and lighter than EOS-3,Nikon 5 and the outlandish R8. Jeff's photos are truly good.His opinions really hurt!Why is he always right!Rats!Maybe he should be exiled to Beijing!A friend went to Middle East.As a newsphotographer always used 35mm.He took only a Hassie with 80mm.Another fashion photographer i knew,pocketed an Olympus-XA.Her prints from Kodak 100 Gold film enlarged to 4' x 6'. Both were success.I guess in the end though they both travelled very light!

-- jason gold (leeu72@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.

telling everyone else what their thoughts are

Only Mike Dixon is allowed beware young man.

-- sarah (sarah_cox@yahoo.com), April 23, 2002.

Sarah - How nice of you to comment. I went looking for your web site or some postings on the Internet. I found out that you are a "cute 23 year old girl with tattoos" by doing a Yahoo search on sarah_cox. I would post the website address so everyone could enjoy your beautiful photos (photos of you, I guess), but it turns out it is in the "Adult Galleries > Individual Amateurs" section and Tony might not like that.

Say "hi" to your brother Allen for me.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 23, 2002.

Uh-oh. Now the thread is getting hot...

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), April 23, 2002.