First, I want to apologize for posting two in a row, I'll try to avoid this in the future. I'm getting closer to a purchase and I'm getting a bit nervous, while price is part of it, after having gone through many threads, I'll ocassionally see a note about someone's M6 or M6ttl rangefinder being misaligned straight out of the box.

Since I'm a tyro at this, I wouldn't know how to tell if this was happening with a camera before I purchased it. Do you have to run film through to catch this or is there another way to do it at the store before one plops down the hard cold cash?

-- Hyatt Lee (shahmat@ms63.hinet.net), April 26, 2002

Answers

An easy check of the rangefinder is to put a lens on the camera and point it at something on the horizon with the lens focused at the infinity mark. The rangefinder images should coincide exactly, both horizontally and vertically.

Remember that problem reports spoken about on the web tend to be a small minority in terms of actual sales volume. However, any manufactured product has some risk of defect ... It'e always best to know the immediate exchange/return policy of the vendor from whom you buy. My local dealer has a 7 day policy: if something is not right within 7 days of purchase, they will exchange a camera or lens on the spot without needing to invoke warranty through the distributor. 7 days is plenty of time to shoot a test roll and have it processed, examine for defects in the camera.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), April 26, 2002.

My M6 TTL was fine right out of the box- results have been spot on. www.bhphotovideo.com has a 14 day satisaction return or exchange policy, plus the Leica 3 year passport protection covers everything except fire and theft. I have bever had a problem returning items to B&H, they are awesome to deal with, and there is now a 200 buck discount on the M6 TTL. Good luck...

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 26, 2002.

As an addition to what Godfrey wrote, your object at infinity should be half a mile or further away if possible - NOT just a few hundred yards. :o)

-- Tim Franklin (tim_franklin@mac.com), April 26, 2002.

If you are worried about the cost (and most people here are) i highly recommend buying a used camera in decent condition. Used prices don't fluctuate much if at all, and that way you can get out without much loss. Most of the time you will only loose the cost of shipping if you buy used gear and sell it later on because you will likely be able to sell it at the same price if the condition didn't change much.

As others have said, rangefinder misalignment should be very obvious to detect. if you do end up buying a well used camera, either make sure it has recently had a CLA, or budget for one.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), April 26, 2002.

yes, I agree, never buy new, unless you're loaded. 2nd hand cameras from dealers are usually checked over and if they develop problems, the dealer will usually fix them for you. Leica Ms are built to last a lifetime, so normally you will have no problems with 2nd hand purchases.

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), April 26, 2002.

Hyatt, Don't worry, its only a very, very, small number of people who get a 'bad' camera. Unfortunately they whine so much about it whenever they can that people sometimes get the impression that its a regular problem. By all means check the rangefinder, but the most likely 'faults' in my opinion come from the dealer's end, not Leica. Check that the camera has all its documentation, Passport, warrenty, etc, and make sure it has no cosmetic faults. I have seen new cameras come out of a box with clear indications that a strap has been fitted! These are dealer, not Leica, problems.

-- Steve Barnett (barnet@globalnet.co.uk), April 26, 2002.

I never buy anything expensive second hand unless I know I'm safe. I don't know where you're from, but here, you can always get your money back in 7-14 days (14 days for brand new stuff) without having to answer any questions. Second hand stuff like Leicas usually also have a 6-month to 1-year warranty. Brand new 2 years.

Maybe that's why leica stuff isn't all that inexpensive even here in Leicaland.

Still, whatever you buy, even for a great price, shoot at least one roll first. Should take you at most 24 hours.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), April 26, 2002.

I bought a new "Wetztlar" M6 in 1988 in Hong Kong when I was living in Japan, and then a year later, when I was living in the States, the rangefinder went out of alignment; Leica USA fixed it under the warranty. Another year-and-a-half later, the rangefinder went out of alignment again and Leica USA fixed it for free despite the fact that the international warranty was only for a year. Then, I bought a new "Solms" M6 which has never had any problem. I wouldn't worry if I were you.

-- Mitch Alland (malland@mac.com), April 26, 2002.

Most dangerous advice is the one that comes from people whose only experience of their equipment comes from evaluating 6x4" prints from the photo shop. These people always seem to have "TACK" or "PIN" sharp lenses and their shutters always run true. Whatever photographic gear you buy, new or second hand, Leica, Nikon, Canon, Kiev or whatever always test before you buy. Excellent advice available on what to look for on this forum and other sites. Good luck.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), April 26, 2002.

Karl, I hope you noticed Mitch's experience with his Wetzlar-made M6! ;-)

-- Andrew (mazurka@rocketmail.com), April 26, 2002.

remember -- you can save a lot of money on leica gear by buying from a dealer who is running a leica day (check the leica usa website -- there are multiple leica days every month), by buying out of state to save sales tax, and by taking advantage of rebate offers. in addition, at leas on m6ttl cameras, many dealers currently will offer a little further discount. if you ask around, it is fairly easy to find a new m6ttl for $1450 or so ($200 rebate, 10% off for leica day, further 5-10% dealer discount). also worth noting is that most dealers are offering mint in box used m6 cameras for about $1100. finally, you can buy a nice user m4-p for about $700 and pop on a used DR summicron for $300 more. in my view, if you overpay for something you will never really enjoy it. also, if you have spent what you consider to be a HUGE sum on a camera, you will be too careful with it, worry about every little nick, etc etc. you can get into leica for very short money if you want and get precisely the same PHOTOGRAPHIC experience as the guy who spends $6K on a millenium with matching 50 summi black lacq. don't let all the gear talk on this site impel you to do something you will regret later, and rob you of the pleasure of making photographs.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), April 26, 2002.

Hyatt,

As a new Leica owner I can empathize with your sentiments. I still sometimes wonder if I spent the money wisely, but you handle this camera for a few seconds and there's nothing like it. [Maybe I'm just used to Nikon prices. :) ] I actually had to return a lens because there was a wire or something (white) embedded in the lens. So also look at the lens carefully, with a bright light at the other end. However, don't panic if you find random stuff on the sides, as that won't be in the way of the light rays going to the film. But since you're paying relatively a lot for it, you should expect a higher degree of perfection from Leica.

Ken Hansen of New York is having a Leica Day on May 2nd. You can call them now if you like. 10% off M6TTL's plus $200 rebate from Leica. Phone 212-317-0923. Dr. Albert Knapp had suggested them in a message a few days ago, and their service is superb. I dealt with Jose.

Go for it!!! The 3-year passport warranty will let you sleep soundly.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), April 26, 2002.

I'm also in the market for a M6TTL. However, I live in Canada and there is no 10% discount on Leica Day. Curent rebate by Canadian distributors is $200 Cdn (or US$130) off regular price. After rebate price in Canada will then be US$1850!

Is there any way that I can buy from a US dealer and enjoy all the discounts of 10%, US$200 mail-in rebate and further discount by dealer (if any). I'm told that the mail-in rebate is only applicable to US resident. Any suggestion that I can get a brand new M6 at around $1,500 with US/Canadian warranty?

-- Fred Lee (leefred@cadvision.com), April 26, 2002.

Fred,

I don't have any suggestions other than to maybe use the good graces of a trusted friend you might have in the US. Otherwise, give Ken Hansen or some other reputable dealer a jingle and see if they can work something out for you.

Best of luck.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), April 26, 2002.

Ditto the comments about reporting bias: people are quick to complain, slow to praise. You will read about defective new cameras but not as often about the (larger number of) cameras that work properly out of the box. I bought my M6 second-hand, ten years old, then after using it for awhile and dropping it once, I sent it to DAG to have the pc socket rebuilt. He checked it out thoroughly and according to the invoice did not need to adjust the rangefinder. Do the tests recommended above, and if the camera passes, and your pics are sharp, don't worry.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), April 26, 2002.

I want to thank everybody for their contributions. Much has helped, but alas, I'm afraid much hasn't. Ummm... I am a US citizen born and bred in Arkansas, but I have been living in Taiwan for about 5 years.

The point being that I do not intend to buy from a US dealer, as reputable as many seem to be. There are really too many reasons for this to go into now. If I were in the US I would do it in a heartbeat.

I will buy from someone here in Taipei and there are several dealers to choose from but no Leica days and certainly not the special US passport warranty. There are two types of warantee offered here and most of them seem to be three-year send the camera to Hong Kong if it breaks or a one-year send it to Germany if it breaks.

Anyhow, this whole thing is getting a bit off-topic as I was primarily interested in figuring out how to tell when I was staring at a lemon. Once again, thanks for all of the answers.

Cheers

-- Hyatt Lee (shahmat@ms63.hinet.net), April 26, 2002.