Here's a question that I've asked countless times and never really gotten an answer. So, since there are some pretty smart people here, I thought I'd ask again. :)

Where did the cavemen fall? If God created Adam and Eve in the beginning and the history is shown in the Bible after that...and these were obviously fairly smart people, when did the cavemen come? We know, of course, that they *did* but my question is...when? They are depicted as not being the smartest little cookies in the world and it's made to sound as if they were the first humans around (the whole caveman discovers fire, caveman invents the wheel, etc. thing) so, which came first~Adam and Eve, etc. or the cavemen? I've been told "well, how do you know Adam and Eve *weren't* cavemen?". As I said before, they (Adam and Eve) seemed fairly smart (well, of course, except for that whole apple incident) and the cavemen seemed fairly hmmmm not smart.

So, anyone care to field this one for me? :) thanks!

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 26, 2002

Answers

to the top, please

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 26, 2002.

Very interesting question, Jackiea. I often wondered that myself. Hope we get an answer. What a nice diversion from some of the other heated topics being discussed these days.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 26, 2002.

Jackiea, just found this information through the search engine, don't know how much help it is, but it sure is intersting. This could prove to be a very interesting thread! :) MaryLu

The origins of the universe and life on earth have been hotly debated for decades. Obviously there is a lot at stake. Either the God of the Bible is the creator of the universe or He is not. Either, life and the universe spontaneously created itself through natural physical processes, or it did not. It is not my intention to try and answer all your questions, as if that were possible, rather I hope to present information that will encourage you to think this issue through. The Bible tells us that God created the heavens and the earth. God then made all life that lives on earth, culminating in the creation of man. After God created Adam and Eve, He ceased His creative efforts. From a Judeo-Christian perspective, man and the earth are pretty special to God. The "traditional" interpretation of Genesis believes that of the six days of creation God used one day to create the heavens and the earth filled with light, then He spent the next five days making provisions for the survival of His final creation - man. Is it any wonder that for thousands of years man has believed he is the center of the universe? Yet as we shall see, God has gone to even greater lengths and time to show his love for man.

The earliest theories on the cosmos placed the earth at the center of the universe. The sun, moon, planets and stars all circled the earth. The Mesopotamians taught this theory, centuries before being taught by Aristotle, and later by Greek astronomer Ptolomey. This was not the only theory taught, even from the beginning their were dissenters, Greek astronomer Aristarchus in 270 BC taught that the earth circled the sun. Aristotle carried more clout than Aristarchus though and so the debate was silenced for generations.

During the following centuries the Roman Church grew very powerful, becoming the spiritual and, just as often, political authority in the "civilized" world. Because of this the scientists of that day often had to answer to Rome for their discoveries. Out of threat of punishment, the scientists were often forced to conform their discoveries to church policy. It was believed by the church that the universe was perfectly ordered, this meant not only was the earth the center of the universe but the universe must rotate around the earth in perfect circles. Since observations by astronomers did not collaborate this simple view of perfection the Ptolomic model of the universe became very complex, with planets circling on circles around circles. I suppose the concern was that God could not withstand the close scrutiny of the universe by science, therefore the Church had to defend God by demanding the facts be altered to conform to the perfect universe.

In 1530 Copernicus published his theory that the earth revolved around the sun. Copernicus' work was written in Latin the language of the church and the scholarly. The church quietly tolerated this theory until 1633 when a very vocal Galileo confirmed the views of Copernicus in the language of the everyday man. Galileo was brought before the Roman Inquisition for "grave suspicion of heresy". Galileo was sentenced to house arrest for life, and it was considered heresy by some to look through his telescope. Interestingly the Roman Church itself had licensed Galileo to publish his work prior to the Inquisition. Despite his arrest Galileo's work changed the way the universe is viewed.

Another publication, made in 1611, also changed the way the universe was viewed. The King James Bible was well received and gave easy access to God's word to the English speaking common man. Galileo's work opened the door allowing science to freely discover God's universe. The King James Bible set mankind free to discover God, and man's place in His universe. Science and the Bible coexisted relatively comfortable along side one another for the next 200 years.

And then - Darwin. The name itself can boil the blood of many an otherwise quiet peace loving Christian. In 1827 Charles Darwin entered the University of Cambridge to become a clergyman for the Church of England. Upon graduation Darwin signed on as an unpaid naturalist on the survey ship HMS Beagle for an expedition around the world. During this expedition Darwin saw first hand things in the earth he could not explain by the theories he had learned. Among these were fossils of believed extinct creatures that closely resembled living creatures. Also the Galapagos Islands proved very puzzling to him. With each island having different but similar forms of the same species of animals. Darwin's natural selection theory was published in 1859. It claimed that species slowly change through time as favorable adaptations make the animal better able to survive in its environment. These creatures would then pass this favorable change on to their offspring. This theory was met with much criticism among scientists and religious leaders alike, even though Darwin originally gave God the glory of being responsible for the gradual changes he perceived in the species of animal life on earth.

Scientists obviously began to embrace this "evolution" theory as research continued on the newly discovered fossils of the huge extinct creatures we call dinosaurs. The first dinosaur fossils were discovered in 1820. What fueled the fire of separation between science and the theologians was that paleontologists believed the fossils were very old, far older than the traditional Bible creation date allowed. Geologists likewise began to question the age of the earth; it appeared to them not to be a few thousand years old but billions of years old. Meanwhile astronomers such as Edwin Hubble (the Hubble Space Telescope honors his name) using Galileo's invention, the telescope, began to make some startling discoveries of their own. Not only was the earth not the center of the solar system, but also the solar system was not even at the center of the galaxy. It was way out in the suburbs of an ordinary galaxy that was one of millions of other galaxies. The universe also seemed to be much older to astronomers than even the earth. They now believe it to be some 17 billion years old.

These galaxies were found by Edwin Hubble to be moving away from each other at a high rate of speed. This led physicist George Gamow to present the big bang theory for the creation of the universe. In the 1960's astronomers Penzias and Wilson observed a background radiation pattern of incredible uniformity and intensity occurring in every direction of the cosmos. This discovery is considered to be important because it precisely coincides with predictions made by the big bang theory. The mention of the big bang is probably despised by most Christians almost as much as Darwin or evolution closely followed by dinosaurs, and cave men.

Ah yes, cavemen. How the atheists must have laughed about these prehistoric men. After all what could Christians possibly do about cavemen. Scientists believe the fossil records show that Australopithecus, an upright walking ape-man, lived in east Africa and the Middle East some 4 to 5 million years ago. Some 2 million years ago scientists say Homo erectus, a stone tool-making creature with a large brain and more human-like features, replaced the ape- man. These creatures (Peking Man) are found from Africa to tropical China. Homo Sapiens (not modern man) are believed by scientists to have appeared 200,000 to 300,000 years ago. Homo Sapiens were later replaced by Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis, or Neanderthal man about 100 thousand years ago. The fossil record indicates Neanderthal lived from ice age Europe to the Middle East. Modern man (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) appears abruptly as Neanderthal becomes extinct according to some scientists around 40,000 years ago.

The discoveries of the scientists though important did not shape the public mindset nearly as much as did the so-called "Scopes monkey trial" in 1925. The political and media circus surrounding this trial are legendary. The trial was staged to test the Tennessee law forbidding the teaching of evolution. The law was upheld by the court's decision but John Scopes conviction was later overturned on a technicality. The real significance of the trial was that the media's coverage of it nurtured an atmosphere of antagonism between theology and science in the public's mind. This perception that science and the Bible are incompatible continues even today.

In a recent Gallup poll it was found that half the adults in America believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. The reason they give for believing this is "the Bible says so". Meanwhile, according to Christian astronomer Dr. Hugh Ross, 99% of all scientists believe this idea is more far fetched than believing the world is flat. Their reason? The scientific record says so.

The problem is that one or both groups are wrong! Either bad science or bad religion is causing a great deal of trouble. I believe both sides have erred greatly. Despite tradition the Bible does not literally say the earth is 6,000 years old. It is one interpretation that caught on. Because of scientific discoveries of an ancient earth it has become a rallying cry for Christians against the "Godless" scientific community. The scientific discoveries of the last century do not declare there is no God. In fact they show God's hand at work in creation. It is the Christian communities insistence on a young earth creation that has caused the scientists to declare the Bible is in error, and therefore the God of the Bible cannot be real.

Naturalistic evolution is now taught as scientific fact in most of our nations schools. Creationism is no longer even mentioned in most textbooks. The gap between science and the traditional interpretation of the Bible grows wider with each passing day. The accusing words from both sides are often harsh and certainly they are unnecessary. There is however, still hope that the two sides will cease-fire and acknowledge their common goal of discovering and embracing the truth.

The good news is the two sides can be compatible. The bad news is it probably won't happen any time soon. The late Carl Sagan (a famous astronomer) boldly proclaimed in 1996 that he saw no evidence of a God to believe in. This is much to his loss, but it does show how science and theology have become two never intersecting lines and yet they remain in constant conflict.

Theology is no longer taught at the major universities. It is therefore not a part of the scientific communities curriculum. This is not to say that there are no Christian scientists. That is absolutely false.

Meanwhile, science is no longer a major concern on the part of the theological curriculum. On the surface science and theology appear to have little in common, yet there are those in Christian circles who seek to know more about the universe around them that God has created.

I believe healing is possible in the creation/evolution war. I believe the process will begin and indeed has already begun, with the Christian scientists and the Christian laity who are interested in the how's and why's of creation. This will not be an easy road to travel. Both sides of this issue are deeply entrenched and have their respective propaganda piled high and aimed directly at the other side. When both sides are willing to listen to each other the healing process will begin. When both sides are interested in the truth -- and not in tradition, momentary fame or monetary reward -- then the Holy Spirit will be free to teach us and heal us at last.

The Bible tells us that God did not hide himself from us but rather declares his presence by the work of his hands. The scripture also plainly states that because God's hand is evident in creation we are all without excuse if we deny God after observing such a great witness as the universe.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 27, 2002.

Now this is a thread I could really get into. What about the dinosaurs? That's even stranger. Were dragon legends and dinosaurs one and the same? How much did the Flood of Noah have to do with all this? Why do are certain animals designed specifically for killing... is this the orginal design of these animals or a result of the Fall?

I have a theory I haven't really seen anywhere else that the people before the Flood may have been more technologically advanced than we are right now. 30,000 feet of water would have erased all evidence of such.

Hmmmmm.....

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 27, 2002.

I agree, this is going to be a fun and interesting thread...so many questions and so few answers. Let's see what everyone contributes... MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 27, 2002.

The only thing I can add to this thread concerns evolution. If we evolved through the ages, from single-celled beings, to apes, to humans, then why have we not evolved beyond homo sapiens within the last 6000 to 4000 years of recorded history? Why did we stop? Surely, in this span of time, we should have progressed beyond our current form, right?

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), April 27, 2002.

Melissa,

I would say that we are still evolving, if by evolution you mean the more successfull members of the species outnumbering the less successful. Our habitat is still expanding, and our species is wiping out others that might compete with it. From a biological standpoint, what more could you ask?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 27, 2002.

Thanks, MaryLu and Emerald. I'm so glad I could be a welcome diversion right now. :)

And thank you, MaryLu, for looking that up. You're right. It was very interesting. Learned some things I hadn't known (like Galileo being put on house arrest).

Some things that come to mind after reading that.....

I have never believed the "Big Bang Theory". Quite simply, I look around at life. Trees, plants, animals, humans....and I just will never understand how someone can think that dust particles crashing together created all of this. To think about how a body works~the varius functions that all entertwine with each other. The natural responses that half the time, we don't even know take place!, in pregnancy. Nesting??? You wanna try and tell me the Bang did that? Hogwash.

And the whole idea of how old the Earth is...I concur with the author of the article. There were no specific times given in the Bible so, who's to say Adam and Eve weren't created billions of years ago? It may *seem* like a short time in the Bible because it doesn't say "and then 100 years later, there was this great flood!" but that doesn't mean it *was* a short time.

Emerald~You said "Were dragon legends and dinosaurs one and the same?". Could be. I've actually wondered that myself, from time to time. Kind of like David and Goliath. Goliath is described as a giant. And not just any giant. A real giant's giant! But not too long ago, I was watching a show about the physical characteristics of the races back then. Bone structure and what not. And they said in the tribe or race that Goliath belonged to (can't remember the name now), the average height was about 7 feet tall. Now, I'm 5'5 and 7 feet is pretty darned tall to me! They concluded that Goliath probably *would* have been a giant compared to the relatively small size of David and his tribe.

You also said "How much did the Flood of Noah have to do with all this? ... I have a theory I haven't really seen anywhere else that the people before the Flood may have been more technologically advanced than we are right now. 30,000 feet of water would have erased all evidence of such.". A very interesting theory, Emerald. I don't know that they would have been more technologically advanced than we are right now, per se but the artifacts that have been found in waters relatively unexplored until recent years tell me that they were more advanced than I'd originally thought but probably not more so than we are now. You see, it would have erased ALOT of evidence, probably, but not all. We find new things each and everyday in archaelogical digs and dives and nothing really to back up your theory of a more advanced civilization. But it's still a neat theory. :)

Now, along those same lines, I've often wondered about the pyramids, the Mayans, Stonehenge, etc. But my husband scoffs at these mysteries. He doesn't see where the mystery is. :) As he puts it~why do people think people back then were so stupid and uncivilized? *We* figured out a way to lift heavy objects, so why is it so impossible that they did, too?

Touche, I say.

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 27, 2002.

Forgot to mention that. :)

I agree, Melissa and Frank.

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 27, 2002.

If you'd like to explore a great website dealing with Creation Science, check out www.drdino.com -- there's lots of research that completely support the Bible:

"Creation Science Evangelism was started in 1989 by Dr. Kent Hovind (a high-school science teacher for 15 years). This ministry exists to support and proclaim the truth of God's Word, demonstrating the perfect harmony of the Biblical record with factual science and history. 

Additionally, CSE sets out to demonstrate the fallacies and deceptions of modern evolutionary thinking. We believe the Bible is literally true and scientifically accurate. We believe the earth was created in six literal, 24-hour days, about 6000 years ago. We believe dinosaurs have always lived with man. They were called "dragons" throughout most of human history. Noah took them on the ark (probably juveniles--just be sure to get a pink one and a blue one!). After the Flood, people killed most of them. There are probably a few small ones still alive today in remote parts of the world. See our video, Dinosaurs and the Bible for much more on the topic."

-- Perry Conrad (perryconrad@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.

Part of what makes me think they were more technologically advanced is that a lot of ancient cultures seem to have possessed a kind of 'rememberence' knowledge that seems to be more advanced than they way they actually lived their day to day lives. For instance, let's say something absolutely catastrophic were to happen to us now, forcing us to live without the technology we possess today. People would pass down knowledge of cars, computers and aircraft; children would know something of such things, but would not have an organized and complete understanding required to immediately reproduce the goods. It seems to me that some of these older cultures had that kind of awareness, as if they had been told by parents of what once was.

The whole notion of men living 800 years, the references to the 'men of renown' in Scripture, the serpent's theme of 'you shall be like gods' and 'you shall live forever' leading to God's fed-upness and ending such endeavors (banishment from the Garden, the Flood, the Tower of Babel) makes you wonder if technological advancement tempts men to seek the fountain of youth, and whether that would be the sort of watermark for God to step in and set things right; like the angel that guards re-enterence to Eden and the two trees. I can't but ponder our recent 'success' in unraveling the secrets of DNA and the progress in stopping, or reversing, the aging process... and also the cloning research which I think is ultimately intended to farm replacement body parts.

...hope I didn't scare anyone there; lol! This is all just pure speculation of my part. Sorry!

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 27, 2002.

I think the children of the concubines (Gen.25:6)killed all the other kids and became the dumb cavemen.
To think that dragons might still exist in some far off land on earth would prove my theory. Just a theory.
Science and theology might live in the same house for some of us. I don't think that Carl Sagan or Perry Conrad could get along too well and I would be more likely to be in Carl's camp.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), April 27, 2002.

found in page titled EVOLUTION HAPPENS: (http.www.evolutionhappens.net/)

"Why do some insist that evolution resulting in new species of plants and animals does not occur? I believe that in most cases, people don't reject the concept of evolution because they disagree with the science. Rather, they refuse to consider it because it contradicts their religious beliefs. After all, to believe that the species living on Earth today evolved, is to believe that much of the Bible does not represent the literal truth. In the minds of religious fundamentalists, that cannot be considered! Even many religious people who are not fundamentalists, see evolutionism as incompatible with their religious faith.

In contrast, many religious organizations accept evolution. For example, the Roman Catholic Church recognizes evolution as an accepted scientific theory, supported by a great body of evidence. Faith & Reason Ministries is another Christian organization which accepts modern science, including evolution. In 1984 the Central Conference of American Rabbis adopted a resolution against the inclusion of creationism in school science textbooks. In 1987, the same organization adopted a resolution against the teaching of creationism or other religious dogma in public schools."

If the Catholic Church accepts evolution as a scientific theory, let scientists keep on with their investigations until the can prove it. If their findings show me that at a given moment God infused an immortal soul on cavmen I will accept that they were humans and for the same reason worthy of salvation. Christ died for them in the cross. If in my lifetime there is no proof of this when the Lord calls me to His Presence I'll get the answer straight from looking at Him face to face, as St. Paul tells us.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.

The Church's doctrine, which is unchanging, pertains to knowledge necessary to gain eternal salvation of the soul. To think that the body of Catholic teachings is meant to address every question is a huge stretch. The teachings concerning the origin of man are super skeletal. Entertain any theory that doesn't contradict revealed principles of Faith... that leaves lots of room for speculation.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 27, 2002.

Emerald~You said: The whole notion of men living 800 years, the references to the 'men of renown' in Scripture, the serpent's theme of 'you shall be like gods' and 'you shall live forever' leading to God's fed-upness and ending such endeavors (banishment from the Garden, the Flood, the Tower of Babel) makes you wonder if technological advancement tempts men to seek the fountain of youth, and whether that would be the sort of watermark for God to step in and set things right; like the angel that guards re-enterence to Eden and the two trees. I can't but ponder our recent 'success' in unraveling the secrets of DNA and the progress in stopping, or reversing, the aging process... and also the cloning research which I think is ultimately intended to farm replacement body parts. >>>>

Well, I agree with you there, Emerald. I wonder sometimes.......how much is too much? Could it be that we've held off His wrath because of Jesus? He wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah because they didn't believe. He brought the flood of Noah because the people were so wicked and without faith. Were times *really* so much worse back then than they've been in the past two thousand years??? Or is it because of Jesus, Christianity and belief in God has spread so much that there are enough prayers going on to hold off His punishment?

And why have we lost the laws given by God? He doesn't give any anymore. There are no more burning bushes, prophets that talk to God to give new laws (ie~Moses and the Ten Commandments), etc. People feared and listened to God back then so much more than they do today, I think. If it was God's law, you followed it. Now? Free love and do what empowers you. You are your own God. You make your own path. There is nothing predestined. You make your own destiny. There are no punishments after we die. When you die, you're dead and that's it. There is no God. He is an uncaring, old, bearded man that doesn't care about the people on Earth. There is no Father in Heaven. There is a godde that is a feminist.

It makes me sick. He created us, therefore He is our father. I couldn't imagine telling my dad that he's a big joke and unless he constantly gets me out of one jam after another, then he doesn't exist and I hate him. If I said that to my dad, it would kill him...break his heart. And if I was younger, probably get my butt beat.

So, I won't be the least bit surprised when God's wrath is unleashed.

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 27, 2002.

There are certain reptiles still living (like the tuatara lizard) which is considered a "living dinosaur." And alligators sure look like dinosaurs, too. In the far east there are large lizards that run on their hind legs. About 20 years ago, fishermen pulled up a huge dead "sea monster" with a long neck off the coast of Japan. THere are a lot of books written on the dinosaur/creation connection, many from a Christian standpoint.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), April 27, 2002.

Enrique, I am delighted that you reapeared!

I am a scientifically oriented man. I am a computer scientist who loves astronomy, paleontology etc.

I have never seem any contradiction between the theory of evolution and our faith. Indeed, the Magisterium has repeatedly said no such contradictions exists (See "Humani Generis" from Pius XI).

I would have a hard time indeen in believing in the creationist theory. It is contrary to all evidence.

As for evolution in the human species, Chesterton has a very interesting "theory". He says (in "orthodoxy" or "the everlasting man", I cannot quite remember) that this evolution has already happened, when Christ came and made us "evolve" from natural beings into supernatural ones.

Darwin argues for "chance". Well, what he calls "chance" (a scientifically nonexistent concept, as all science is based on causality), I call "Providence".

That´s all.

The caveman was not smart because original sin made our species dumb, as we still are.

-- Atila (atila@none.com), April 27, 2002.

By the way, most theologians are quite happy that the Big Bang theory became the most accepted, because it is the more consistent with revelation.

Theories which I learned when I was at school (now abandoned), such as the "pulsatile universe", implied, for exemple, an eternal universe. Big Bang has everything to do with the revealed creation of the world by God, in a determined moment of time (time began to exist with the creation, as Aristotle and St. Thomas contended, and Einstein confirmed).

-- Atila (atila@none.com), April 27, 2002.

RE:"Creation Science Evangelism was started in 1989 by Dr. Kent Hovind (a high-school science teacher for 15 years)." Very funny, I hope for Catholicism's sake you are not serious.I didnt check out your web site, surely you are taking the piss? What is the offical Church line on all this literal interpretation on Adam and Eve etc?

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 27, 2002.

Sorry I didnt read Enrique's post properly.

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 27, 2002.

Hello,

The question was asked:

"What is the offical Church line on all this literal interpretation on Adam and Eve etc?"

My short answer is this: The Church teaches that we are descended from two original parents (Adam and Eve), as opposed to a group of "first humans" (polygenism is an alternative theory). The Genesis story is a key piece of the story of redemption. If Adam and Eve didn't sin against God and "fall," their offspring would have no reason for redemption. Jesus' sacrafice on the Cross of Calvary would lose its meaning.

Here is an excerpt from EWTN's website

"The Catholic Church is united with these Christians in opposing evolution AS A PHILOSOPHY. With the Protestants, the Church insists that God created the world and that man has an immortal soul. The Church, however, does not oppose evolution AS A SCIENTIFIC THEORY. The reason is that she does not hold for an absolutely literal interpretation of those chapters of Genesis. Thus the Church sees no necessary conflict between the belief that God created the world from nothing and the scientific hypothesis that the world has evolved over millions of years. Again, the Church sees no necessary conflict between the belief that God created directly the souls of Adam and Eve and the scientific hypothesis that Adam and Eve descended from non-human ancestors. Thus even if can be proven scientifically beyond a reasonable doubt that man has descended from some lower animal like the ape, the Church will not have to change its position. Thus the Church is content to let the scientists go about their business and will only react when some step beyond the limits of science in making the claim that the theory of evolution has made Christianity obsolete."

Here is an excerpt from www.catholic.com:

"Adam and Eve: Real People

It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2-3) as a fiction. The human race really did descend from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) rather than a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

This was made clear by Pope Pius XII: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own" (Humani Generis 37).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, "?St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ.? . . . Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity, for ?from one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth?" (CCC 359-360, citing Peter Chrysologus and Acts 17:26).

The story of the creation and fall of man is, therefore, a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (CCC 390)."

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 28, 2002.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord . "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8,9)

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." (1 Corinthians 1:20-25)

God's wisdom is seen in that *He created the world by the power of his Word*: "God said, "Let there be... and it was so..." Our sinful nature cannot even come close to understanding The Perfect God. Any statements of doubt or "scientific knowledge" that claim to know better than our all-powerful God is completely wrong and follows the road to destruction. There is NOT widespread acceptance for evolution in theology.

Many Christians believe God's Word, in rejecting any theory (philosophical or scientific) of evolution as being compatible with creationism, or in place of creationism. Living things on this earth grow old, weaken and die because of sin. They do not evolve over millions of years and get better.

It is time to stop doubting God or trying to find alternative "imperfect human wisdom" and believe exactly what his Word says. God created everything in an orderly fashion in six days--and all of it was good!

-- Perry Conrad (perryconrad@yahoo.com), April 28, 2002.

Perry, how would you account for the two different stories of creation in Genesis?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 28, 2002.

Just out of curiosity, and perhaps to provoke further discussion, I've heard of another more recent theory on the nature of the origin of the universe, the "Electric Universe" model, which proposes a much smaller, much younger universe than the Big Bang theory would propose.

Any science buffs care to tackle this? At the very least, I think we are learning, scientifically speaking, that we don't know it all...

Then again, maybe the Big Bang people aren't so far off... God spoke, and "Bang!" - the universe was created.

-- (@ .), April 28, 2002.

[Some of you know that I occasionally post hurriedly, signing simply "_@_._". I just wanted to say that I did not leave the last post. JFG]

-- (_@_._), April 28, 2002.

Electric Universe? Doesn't it revolve around Plasma physics and Electricity? Something about Plasma being the 4th state of matter and it being a generator of electricity or something like that? Will have to check with my husband he is the scientist.

-- Joan (godessss@mindspring.com), April 28, 2002.

I bought my computer at Electric Universe, and I always figured the Big Bang theory had something to do with the 2nd Amendment, but anyway I did read something interesting recently, about how atomic particals are all simultaneously acted upon by some force in real time that makes them behave they way they do... I'll have to see if I can dig that article up... less of a 'God made it and walked away leaving it on its on own' and more of a immediate, realtime involvement.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 28, 2002.

Thankyou Mateo, I consider myself Catholic but know very little about my faith. Perry are you on crack?

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 29, 2002.

Just for the sake of precision: "Humani Generis" was written by Pope Pius XII, not Pius XI, or was it just a typing error, Atila?

No harm meant.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 29, 2002.

Mrs. "Excomunicada" Storey,
When you check with your "husband" ["he is the scientist"] about "electric universe," ask him to explain to you about embryos and fetuses. Those are the people whom you help to murder (as an abortion mill's escort) -- the innocent, defenseless human babies (with genetic makeup different from their moms) who get ripped to shreds inside your establishment.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 29, 2002.

Emerald, you said,

I bought my computer at Electric Universe, and I always figured the Big Bang theory had something to do with the 2nd Amendment

It couldn't be, as California politicians still believe in the Big Bang ;-(((

Ex-Californian,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 02, 2002.