WE have always kept our animals on our property to be responsible pet owners.There are dogs in our area that are allowed to roam loose, and have killed several of our rabbits by tearing out the bottom of the cages,We have since put the rabbits in a dog run in their cages for protection, now we have baby chicks ( not outside yet ) with poultry fencing being so thin what's to keep them from tearing into the fencing. The dogs only came around at night to do their dirty deeds and the chickens will be housed at night but I'm still fearful of loosing them to animals that are allowed to roam.I don't even know who owns the dogs to complain to but if seen again they will roam no more.

-- Kathleena (jwatkins10@msn.com), April 27, 2002

Answers

Kathleena, when I built my chicken pen I used 4X4's and 2X4's to make the frame. I then placed 18" poultry wire around the bottom sides. I only needed this much for the baby chicks. On top of that I placed 2X4 welded wire all around the frame and then placed poultry wire on top to keep anything from climbing over or flying out. So the bottom 18" of the pen has both poultry wire and welded wire. Be sure to place the poultry wire on the frame first before placeing the welded wire on the frame. This will keep anything from being able to tear the poultry wire up. So far my newest pen was made this way 5 years ago and nothing has gotten in except one time a skunk got in but he entered by digging his way under and into the coop section. Hope this helps.

Also a good double barrel 12 guage loaded with buck shots helps out with those neighbor dogs.

-- r.h. in okla. (rhays@sstelco.com), April 27, 2002.

We had to build the chicken pen w/coop pretty much the same way, except we burried the wire down about 4 inches.

Had coyotes that ran sometimes...Never lost a Rhode Island red once...

Got an egg a day...Roosters happy...

Also had the overflow from the water tank diverted through the pen so they always had fresh running water.

I figure if I am going to protect by killing, I would be spending all my time killing. Better to secure the pen and spend my time growing something.

-- BC (katnip364@aol.com), April 28, 2002.

Call your dog warden. They can put out a cage to catch the strays and will take them away or find their owners (if they have tags). My parents have had to do this more than once and it has always been successful.

-- Sharon (cheesyemailaddy@notreal.com), April 28, 2002.

There aren't a whole lot of things that get me riled up, but my country living pet peeve is people who let thier dogs roam around! It is so irresponsible, disrepectful and no reason whatsoever! And people who let them roam do not care a diddley about thier dogs!

Although, I generally do not favor the killing of any thing other than for food, if your livestock is being slaughtered or endangered I would get rid of the dogs no matter what you have to do. I feel bad saying that because it is not the dog's fault - they are just doing what dogs do - but they have to go. You can't put up with dead livestock because some idiot thinks letting a dog roam is his right! Too bad you can't shoot the owners instead...LOL!

-- Karen (mountains_mama2@hotmail.com), April 28, 2002.

Have you ever seen a dog die of antifreeze poisoning? I wouldn't wish that on any animal. If you have to kill them, shoot them please.

-- Elizabeth (Lividia66@aol.com), April 28, 2002.

I agree word for word with Karen. I've dealt with irresponsible neighbors and their dogs, and while I cannot blame the dog and hate for the dog to pay the price, there usually is no other alternative. If you want to take a chance on losing your animals, you can first try the route of going through various agencies or trying to humane trap the dogs and turn them over to animal control. You will likely lose some animals in the meantime. The other bad part about trying to be nice and warn your neighbors, is a) most of them could care less and will take no action, and b) when you are forced to dispose of the dog yourself, your neighbors will know who to blame. That sets you up for an ugly relationship and possible lawsuit, or could even put you in danger.

I warned our neighbors several times, as did the sheriff after I started complaining to him. They continued to let their dogs run. We lost a goose, a rabbit and had the dogs chasing our goats in the meantime. The last time it happened, I called the sheriff, then headed to the house for a rifle. Before I came out with the rifle, the sheriff arrived to find FIVE dogs chasing ducks in my yard. He chased them home and told me to shoot them on sight the next time they showed up. Then told the neighbors what he'd instructed me to do and told them if I didn't shoot them, he would. Since then they've finally kept them home, but many other neighbor dogs are now running. Our policy now is to shoot, shovel and shut up. I cannot risk starting a war with my neighbors so the dogs will just have to quietly disappear.

We are dog owners and dog lovers. I love my dogs enough to fence them in and supervise them at all times. Those who think their dogs need to run loose unsupervised do NOT care about their dogs.

-- Lenette (kigervixen@nospam.com), April 28, 2002.

I am with Stan. If they let the dogs run lose they didn't want them to start with.

-- Mel Kelly (melkelly@webtv.net), April 28, 2002.

It's best to build a secure coop rather than hope to be home to shoot the dog/varmint or depend on your neigbors to keep in their dogs where they're supposed to be.

I have 2 strands of hot wire around my coop. One strand about 3" from the ground to zap anything that attempts to dig under and another strand about 4' up to zap anything that jumps up to see in the window.

If you use a good sturdy hardware mesh you still have to worry about animals digging under (and they will). You can either do as one other poster said and bury the wire a foot deep (although i have read of other's experiences that a desperate animal will still be able to get under this). A better idea is to lay strong wire mesh flat around the perimeter of the coop (burying it slightly). The animals aren't smart enough to know to back up the width of the wire to being their digging.

It's good you're worried; chickens have plenty other predators besides the dogs. Good luck in keeping your animals safe!

-- Buk (noaddy@chickensrus.com), April 28, 2002.

See the archives; this issue has been discussed many times. Dog lover or not, I would shoot any dog who harmed or menaced my other animals. Rest assured, the problem will continue until you handle it. Don't draw undue attention to yourself by begging for official help, or for cooperation from the neighbors. They are obviously too stupid or careless to take proper care of the dogs. Your little critters count on you to protect them!

Stan, do you get a thrill by thinking about animals suffering? Your suggestions make me wonder if you are disturbed in some way. And I don't mean disturbed by roaming dogs.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), April 28, 2002.

Traps are illegal in most areas. Too much chance of a trespassing child saying to himself "what's this?" and trying to pick it up.....

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), April 28, 2002.

It's just as much the fault of the animal owner that doesn't construct secure enclosures as it is the dogs. How in the world will you keep all the wild predators out if you can't even deter the neighbors dog. You're wrong to buy a little piece of land and then demand that all the surrounding area change a behavior that has gone on for generations just to suit your "citified" attitude.

-- Don Cothern (hihilldon@yahoo.com), April 28, 2002.

Don--just because certain behavior may have gone on for generations doesn't make it right, for heaven's sake! That sounds like one of our neighbors who lets folks hunt on his property--they think nothing about where their bullets are going--like hitting our barn. We had to get the sheriff out to deal with that one. Their excuse? "We've always hunted this area--long before SHE lived here."

We have dogs that loved to roam. It was just a matter of time before they got into trouble. We wound up getting Invisible Fence-- outrageously expensive for four dogs, but it works beautifully. The dogs have four acres to enjoy and I don't have to worry about my dogs causing problems.

Keeping your animals from becoming a nuisance isn't really a "citified" idea--it's called common courtesy and obeying the law.

-- Julie in NC (jwoessner@rtmx.net), April 28, 2002.

Well Kathleena, that always gets people going! Me too! I have no second thoughts at all as far as shooting dogs that are on my property and don't belong there. However, you have some resposibility here too! I believe firmly in fencing your property! With a secure dog proof fence. If you can't fence the whole thing then at least fence the areas where you keep your poultry. I know if the dogs just come around at night it is hard to shoot them. I don't use poison on larger animals like this, not because I care about the straying dogs, but I don't want other animals to get the stuff. The above suggestions re hot wire are good ones too. A good fence is better. Good luck with this, it is aggravating I know. LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), April 28, 2002.

I have to respectfully disagree with having to fence my property to keep other people's pets off my own property. It is one thing to have preditors from the wild -- it is another to have preditors in the way of dogs! I do not think it is a person's responsibility to pay for fencing to keep someone else's dogs out of thier own yard. It is the dog's owner's responsibility to fence THIER yard to keep the dogs in.

We can't afford fencing for our dogs, so we walk them on a leash. Just because I live in the country does not give me the right to just turn them out and expect other people to worry about how to keep them out.

If I am wrong then I wish someone would enlighten me why it is ok to let your dogs roam and why it is someone else's responsibility to keep them out if they don't want them there...cause I don't get it!

-- Karen (mountains_mama2@hotmail.com), April 28, 2002.

Copied this from a site after Stan said atinfreeze ingestion doesn't make the animal suffer: "The initial symptoms of antifreeze poisoning may include excessive thirst and urination, lack of coordination, weakness, nausea, tremors, vomiting, rapid breathing and heart rate, convulsions, crystals in urine, diarrhea, paralysis, depression, thirst and frequent urination. These symptoms can begin as soon as 30 minutes after the antifreeze has been ingested and may last for 12 hours at which time the symptoms will disappear. At this point, the liver will have broken down the ethylene glycol (EG), the active ingredient in antifreeze. Toxicologists report that EG antifreeze, once inside the body, is changed into a crystalline acid which attacks the kidneys. Further symptoms may not be noticeable for days and irreparable damage may be occurring. Vomiting may reoccur, as well as loss of appetite, dehydration, inability to urinate, salivation, seizures, mouth ulcers, coma and death." Please just shoot the things.

-- Elizabeth (Lividia66@aol.com), April 28, 2002.

Kathleena, this is the wrong board to post your concerns about the neighbors dogs,there has got to be more reasonable, kinder, less selfish people out there than what this bunch represents.This board has a lot of good advice on a lot of topics, but when it comes to the neighbors beloved pet, then all these people want to do is SSS. Don't get caught up in their ideals, as it is inhumane and discustingly selfish. Please contact the dogs owners, give them a chance, there are actually nice people in this world that might not know that their animals are causing trouble and will be willing to work it out with you.

-- Julie (dabanks@harbornet.net), April 28, 2002.

Snares, are a good final solution.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), April 28, 2002.

Find out what the laws are first. If you have laws, for instance, saying you're not allowed to discharge a firearm within a hundred yards of a public road or other public area, you'd better know about it. If you have laws saying you're not allowed to shoot roaming animals you'd better know about it. If you have laws saying you are allowed to shoot dogs attacking your livestock you'd better know about it - particularly if you are ONLY allowed to shoot WHEN they're attacking, or after they've attacked - this could influence when you shoot, or what you have to say you saw after you've shot. Actually, if legal, crossbows may be a good option - no gunshots for people to remember after Fido doesn't come home from his usual three-hour evening "run".

Know the laws - you're working in the dark otherwise. If the laws are ridiculous, then you can make decisions. However, you should at least know what the law is before you break it, or even act in accordance with it.

And for those who think protecting your livestock and killing attacking animals isn't traditional - what planet did you say you came to Earth from? Newcomers from the city may not think about that, and it may be wise to keep quiet about what you had to do to avoid stirring up resentment; but farmers have always had to do this, and have, and sensible districts have recognised this. If your district is becoming yuppyfied, then keep an eye and an ear on what the yuppies may be trying to push through in your local government area.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), April 28, 2002.

Electric fence worked for me too. I still have them coming to poo in my yard but they don't bother my animals any more. (put some peanut butter on the hot wire)

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), April 28, 2002.

When i first started out with chickens, i didn't realize the importance of building a secure pen. One afternoon, i came home to find my small flock of pet banties reduced to bloody carnage. Feathers, bloody bones everywhere. I dug a mass grave and buried all that was left. sad, sad day. I assume a dog(s) was the culprit as it defecated in the coop, but never found out what dog. Possibly the neighbors?, but i'm not sure.

While i agree in disposing of varmints/dogs that pose a threat, i recognize the fact i won't always be around to witness which neighbor's dog might have gotten out of the yard that day to kill....say my favorite hen.

The SSS method is sometimes a necessity, true; but after seeing the remains of my beloved first flock (and having no idea which dog did the deed), i all of a sudden had a very strong desire to make my coop as predator proof as possible so i wouldn't have to see my pets bloody guts again. Thus, the electric fence.

-- Buk (noaddy@chickensrus.com), April 28, 2002.

Yes, DO know the laws, and how they get stupidly "yuppified". If you have chickens/rabbits/livestock unfenced where the locals live nearby, they could use the argument that you are providing something that attracts the dogs, and it's YOUR responsibility to keep them fenced. Sound stupid? Just stop and think about how many parents have successfully sued a neighbour who had a pool in their backyard, and when their unsupervised little brats went trespassing in that neighbour's backyard and drowned themselves, the parents used the argument that the pool was something that attracted the kiddies, and that it was the pool owner's responsibility to see to it that no one came to harm in the pool.

When you have chickens/ducks/turkeys/rabbits, you have a critter that has been domesticized to the point of losing its ability to run/defend itself effectively from predators. It is always advisable to have them safely fenced in.

If you must kill the dogs, learn to use a firearm effectively. Poisoning IS cruel, simple as that.

Something that discourages dogs, cats and other critters like raccoons and skunks is ammonia. Try putting a rag inside a big margarine or ice cream container, soak it with ammonia, poke a few holes in the lid, put the lid on, then bury this container to where the lid is level with the ground. Put a few of these around where the dogs are trying to dig into the pens. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't, but some people swear by it to keep dogs and cats away from their flowerbeds. The ammonia burns their sensitve nostrils.

-- Chelsea (rmbehr@istar.ca), April 28, 2002.

I like Karen's post, I agree whole heartedly. Irresponsible owners raise wandering useless menacing dogs. I will shoot a dog that is after my livestock without a second thought! Our area has some dogs we have been warned about, killing livestock. Sheriff dept. has shot acouple so far. Killing for the fun of it!!! If you shoot a dog with tags that has killed your livestock, call the sheriff's dept. The owners are responsible for the damages!

-- Suzanne (weir@frontiernet.net), April 28, 2002.

I'm perfectly aware of what rat poison does to animals. I'm saying she shouldn't poison at all, not use rat poison instead of antifreeze. And how exactly would you set up the poison so that only a dog could get to it?

-- Elizabeth (Lividia66@aol.com), April 28, 2002.

Stan, you are right, I hadn't thought of live traps. I was thinking of the type of traps that can take a childs finger of if the child does something they shouldn't. Live traps ARE allowed in most areas, because they ARE less likely to hurt people (tresspassers) who may blunder into them.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), April 28, 2002.

My neighbors chows decided to have 40 of my rhode island red hens for breakfast one morning. The chicken coop had buried welded wire all the way around the bottom. I had chicken wire OVER cattle panels making up the walls of the pen and it had wire on the top....believe it or not they broke through the chicken wire/cattle panels. This neighbor and I were just about like the hatfields and mccoys...I had told them repeatedly about their vicious dogs. Had to start carrying a shot gun with me at chore time to protect myself. Never could get a shot at them that wasn't towards the road. The sheriff had been out there lots of times over those dogs. The morning they killed so many of my chickens I had the sheriff inform them I would be sueing them for the value of the chickens(I told a tiny lie...said they were worth something like $10 a piece....$400 total :o). What do ya know....dogs were gone the next day. Fortunately the neighbors were gone a couple of months after that. There is more than one way to skin a cat. If you aren't close to a road then my preferred method of dealing with this problem is a 30-06 or a 30-30(what is it with .22's on this forum...lol). I don't like poisons...not into cruelty. Please make sure you are proficient enough with a firearm so that you kill it cleanly with the first shot. Infuriates me for people to talk about having to track a wounded deer for hours....if you don't know what you are doing with a gun then you by golly need to learn. Best of luck to you with your problem Kathleena.

-- Amanda (mrsgunsmyth@hotmail.com), April 28, 2002.

Kathleena, I would suppose that what you do would depend on where you live. I live in a very odd sort of place. I'm in a suburb in the country. I live on the edge of a subdivision where there are a gaggle of yuppies, while on the other side I have a whole passle of old-time Mainahs. I sit in the middle with my chickens and goats, which have fencing that is strong enough to keep in a crazed draft animal with no cracks in the bottom large enough for the fox terriers next door. (In fact, the fox terriers were my standards for hole size...any hole large enough for a fox terrier to pass through had to be covered in some fashion.) I put large logs around the bottom of my 5 1/2 foot fences and have not had anything make a serious attempt to either jump over or dig under my fences. My goat fences are board and 4x4 with welded wire mesh. My chicken fences are cedar posts with welded wire mesh. All of my animals get shut in at night. I may have just been lucky so far. I'm not so sure that my chicken fencing, as sturdy as it is, would stand up to a pack attack. However, considering where I am and the people who surround me, it would be a serious uphill battle to expect them all to pen their dogs, so I set up my homestead according to the way things were when I arrived at this spot.

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), April 28, 2002.

It's just as much the fault of the animal owner that doesn't construct secure enclosures as it is the dogs. How in the world will you keep all the wild predators out if you can't even deter the neighbors dog. You're wrong to buy a little piece of land and then demand that all the surrounding area change a behavior that has gone on for generations just to suit your "citified" attitude. ........................................................

I agree with Don! When we moved out here the property previously was hunted and also free range ran with cattle. I would never have shot at a hunting dog. Once we found out the laws in East Texas were for the dog, we did give our neighbors warnings. We built secure pens, including a cement footing for the chicken house, the biggest detrement to neighborhood dogs and coyotes for us is guardian dogs. We still loose the egg to a chicken snake now and then, lost some ducklings to a hawk, those are the kinds of problems you expect to have when you move into the National Forest. But when folks drop dogs off in bunches to live "free" in the woods, you have no choice but to kill them, it is the most humane thing to do. I always wanted to post a billboard, offering free ammo to the jerks who are always dropping off their dogs at the end of our dirt roads. Do they think they are going to find a good home? Live wild in the woods? The problem always goes back to spaying and neutering, if dogs and cats were worth something, every billybob in the woods couldn't afford 20 of them tie to their broken down pickups!

Kathleena, you have got to do what you got to do, especially if you don't know who owns the dogs. Our donkeys stomped a little fluffy dog to death for even coming in their pen. I also would hate to have to rely on my 22 for the only protection for my stock! vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 29, 2002.

I came to live on a 5 acre parcel in a subdivison that has leash rules on the common areas(roads and pond lot) and containment to owners lots otherwise...livestock was not prohibited unless neighbors complained about smell/noise. I built a coop for chickens of chicken wire and things went well for a spell untill I came out one morning to find the neighbors young black lab in the coop killing all he could catch..12 birds total..this neighbor showed up to retrieve his dog with his beer can in hand showing me just how concerened he WASN'T. Time passed, I complained of roaming dogs(including dogs that challenged me in my own driveway!) the challenging dog was chained, the roamers were not..one owner even told me she moved to the country to allow her dog to run and she WOULD not pen it, that dog likes to sleep on the road in the sun and he would make a fine speedbump some day... Now for the otherside of the coin..I got two puppies, female(and have had them spayed) have had them aprox a year and in that time they have managed to escape me 6 times to run without supervision, once for nearly 24 hours,they have their tags and rabies tag too,all I could do was pray; beat the bushes on foot and by car,that they were not killed and did not kill anything while loose. If they had it would have been my fault(even tho I did not intend for them to be loose)and I hope if they ever get shot someone brings/sends,(even anonamusly) the tags so I know what happened to them...I did recieve one call(he did not Identify himself, so I could never find out where the dogs had been, even tho I tried)telling me that if the dogs chased his chickens one more time he would shoot them..I am so frustrated by that call, I am doing everything I can to keep them home,not out of the house off a leash all the way to their exercise yard, penned in the goat shed during the day when I am not home(the accidents occured when I thought they had been trained to go from the shed to the house and they decided to take a detour,it was after deer season and my friend thinks they found a carcass)..they travel only on a leash now.. Just wanted to say that I have lived this one from both sides and do not ALLOW my dogs to run! I can't believe that anyone owns a dog that has NEVER been off the property/out of the owners sight even once, unless the dog never gets out of the house or you live in FT Knox...

-- Bee White (bee@hereintown.net), April 29, 2002.

Actually, as "neighbor law" has evolved over many, many years, the owner of the animals (regardless of type) is supposed to fence in order to keep the animals in. So yes, the roaming dog/livestock (they roam too) is supposed to have adequate fencing.

I am against trapping and poisons--suppose a child or your own pets got into them.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 29, 2002.

I have had dogs kill chix when I went into town. I think it might have been coyotes they seem to know when you leave. We now have to keep the chixs in all day and night. Can't enjoy them anymore they are just a chore now because of dogs. I have had people drop them off from the City. It makes me so mad they must drive down the road and say that place will make a nice home for all these puppies. Of course, their children are quite happy that mommy and daddy found a good home. I called the shelter and they always say they only work the city so I tell them that these dogs will become city dogs real quick. I have kept two of the many, plus kept 4 cats of the hundreds but thats my limit. By the time I feed, house, worm and spent the money on fixing them, I think I have done enough. By the way, my dogs are locked up from 3 pm. (when I feed them) till morning so their not running and making a mess someplace else. Since I kept these two dogs I haven't had the coyotes up as close so maybe they're good for us. I certainly do love the muts!

-- debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), April 29, 2002.

My neighbor found a Norwegian Elkhound or Akita or some such thing running loose. She feeds it, it lives with her. When I asked her to keep it away from my stock (as it runs loose ALWAYS and I find it around my livestock) she told me that it was a stray and she didn't own it, so she's not responsible for it (I think she's just a ninny). I never have a good shot either. I've found that an M-1 carbine has got a pretty good range and puts whatever down pretty effectively. With the 30 shot clip you can riddle the animal before it can get to you (same with a 15 shot semi-automatic .22). I love animals and want to protect all I can but loose dogs pack and revert to more wolf-like attitudes. Loose cats are just about as bad. Anyway, this discussion could be distilled into: you need to depopulate the predators. And protect your livestock that eat up your paycheck and provide YOU with the ability to sustain your life... Good Hunting! (nothin' purtier than a dogskin rug in front of the woodburner or catskin mittens...)

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), April 29, 2002.

In the six years I've been here I had my GSD leave the property once and after that she was chained when I wasn't around. We have all had an animal or two leave the property without our consent. My Scott Highland heifer decided jumping my fence was fun this spring. The key is to fix the problem once its occured. If the same animals are coming back again and again thats one thing, but to put out poison that any animal, domestic or wild, can get into is just plain wrong. There is always a legal way to get these problems fixed.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), April 29, 2002.