I'm sure similar questions have been asked before, but I'm looking for advice from people who have used these lenses for the kind of work I do.

I'm debating which 50 to get for my M system. (I currently have a 28 'cron, 35 'lux and 75 'lux.) I'm wondering if anyone has experience using the Noctilux for documentary work. I'm very tempted by that magical "f/1", but I have a few concerns. I'm wondering if the DOF is so small that it would be difficult to focus accurately in situations where things aren't standing still. I'm also worried that the vignetting and unique optical fingerprint I've read about might be too distracting for this type of work.

Any thoughts and/or examples of work on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

-- Noah Addis (naddis@mindspring.com), May 01, 2002

Answers

Don't forget the weight, and the more intimidating "presence." Have you felt the need for more speed than your 'luxes provide?

-- Phil Stiles (Stiles@metrocast.net), May 01, 2002.

Can you please explain exactly what you will be shooting?

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), May 01, 2002.

The DoF on the Noctilux is very shallow, but it shouldn't be hard to handle if you're already proficient w/the 75 Summilux, which has the shallowest DoF of any Leica lens @ a given distance (if you haven't seen it, check out this thread). As to the vignetting & optical fingerprint being distracting, I think that would depend on the specific subject matter, lighting conditions, etc.

-- Chris Chen (Wash., DC) (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), May 01, 2002.

I have a Noctilux and I would not get rid of it for anything. The weight and size of it is not a concern of mine. The weight does not bother me one bit. The size, well it really is not a lot bigger than the 50mm Lux. People who complain about the size and weight probably have never owned a Noct (and maybe would not care to own one ever, thats ok). I have to be honest with you, I seldom get my Noct to f1.0 In fact I shoot HP5 @ 400iso and in low light situation I am normally at f1.4. Which would be great with the Lux.

However, I am currently experimenting with the Dark Red 29 (hellrot) and Light Red 25 (dimplerot) filters in daylight to attempt to create effects that simply are not possible on the Lux (given the extra stop). Also, portraiture by candle light, using pen lights to light a night scene, or simply having the extra stop to further blow out backgrounds are examples of different effects that you could create with the Noct but would be harder, if possible at all, with the Lux.

The focus at f1.0 is harder, due to shallower DOF, and Leica has increase the focus ring travel to allow for finer adjustments to be made with the Noct. Worries about vignetting are unfounded because at f1.4 and smaller there is no vignette. At appertures larger than f1.4 (ie. f1.0) the vignette is minimal due to having such a darkened scene to begin with. Any vignette that you do have at f1.0 only adds to the photo's mystique.

The optical finerprint is unique. The optical qualities behind this lens is what has given it the following it has. It is an amazing lens to say the least. This lens behaves like no other like it. Personally I LOVE the UNIQUE optical qualities of this lens. With this lens, and this lens only, pictures can be taken unlike any other camera, lens, or system available anywhere.

Sure Cannon makes a 50mm f1.0. And the optical qualities are close, though not as beautiful or handsome as the Noct's optical abilities. You see, Cannon copied the optical design of the Noct. But leaving persoanl opinion out of this, look at the Cannon's system. Take a state of the art EOS and put Cannon's 50mm f1.0EF on it. You could shoot HANDHELD at f1.0 at 1/60th of a second. Due to the cameras vibration, a 1/60th shutter speed is necessary. Now with the Lecia M, any M, with the Noct set at f1.0 you could shoot at 1/15th of a second HANDHELD. That is two whole stops! That is 400% more light being recorded with the Noct. The next closest is an M with a Lux at f1.4 at 1/15th.

You really cannot go wrong with either lens. You have decide for yourself, if any of the Noct's qualities are to your liking then the Noct. If you could care less then go with the Lux. Either way you will be happy, and that's what's important. I have NOTHING bad to say about the Lux, it is great and I have used one myself. Just don't listen to those who would summarily dismiss the Noct because of size or weight or some other lame reason like that. Good luck to you!

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), May 01, 2002.

Soory, I did not mean to write a novel.

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), May 01, 2002.

Rob, thanks for taking the time to write a detailed answer.

To answer some of the questions, I shoot many different things under different conditions. I have occasionally found myself wishing for something faster than f/1.4, such as shooting by candlelight during a power outage, etc. It also might be useful for street photography at night. I recognize that it's a big lens, but I'm not too worried about it being intimidating. It's still a heck of a lot smaller than most SLR fast lenses.

-- Noah Addis (naddis@mindspring.com), May 01, 2002.

Documentary work usually erquires quick thinking and quick actions to match. Focusing the heavy Noctilux at f/1 will be challenging to do accurately and quickly. Sure, it will still allow you to get the shot, but the 35 Lux will focus faster and allow more room for error with slightly increased depth of field. Shutter speed should be similar at low light levels.

I'd only go the Noct if you want to explore the OOF ability of the lens at the 50mm focal length. Otherwise, you'd probably be better served with a Summicron or Lux. But if you like the 50mm focal length and will use it a lot, the Noct would be the best as it could do evrything and never be limited.

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

I use the 50 Summilux a lot for night photography and regularly find that I'm shooting at 1/25 and f1.4 to 1.7 (even with 3200-speed film) in dark bars or clubs. I wouldn't consider the extra stop essential, but it would certainly be useful.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), May 02, 2002.

Rob Schopke: by calling it a novel, are you saying that what you wrote was fiction? If so, it's a pity because I enjoyed reading it. :- ) It's seldom one gets the chance to read so much information about the Noctilux from a genuine owner and user of that lens.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 02, 2002.

Even if the 35 lux has slower shutter speeds at 1.4 compared to the noctilux's 1.0, wouldn't the shorter focal length make it as hand- holdable? Just curious, I think I read that somewhere. But, as mentioned by Kristian, if you like the 50mm...

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

Noah,

The faster the better, as you already know. DoF management must be somewhat easier than with the 75 at f1.4, as pointed above. I'm more and more convinced that the Nocti is the ultimate "standard" lens. it's only downside (if you accept weight/volume) is the fact that minimum focus is 1m, while minimum focus for 35 asph 'lux, 75 'lux and latest 50 'lux is 0.70m. That might make a real difference in clubs, living quarters, etc, where your subject is often sitting at narrow table distance.... No tight head/shoulders with the Nocti. But there, the 75 shines at its peak !

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

I would think dof is very important for street photography. Unless you are shooting at near infinity I would think the Summicron is a better choice. For me the most annoying peave is when there are two people interacting in the shot but one is slightly out of focus. This is enough for me to trash the negative. OT: I actually see a lot of weddings done by "profesionals" where some faces in group shots are out of focus. This is enough to earn the hack a kick in the nuts.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), May 02, 2002.

Ray,

I do not quite understand your remark: the Nocti gives exactly the same DoF as the 'cron at same apertures, obviously...

To get more DoF with the Nocti, you are allowed to close it down: it's aperture ring is not stuck and fixed at f1 !

On the other hand, you cannot open the 'cron beyond f2, and you are stuck much earlier than the Noctilux user once the light starts saying "nay"....

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

Jacques,

Well yes the Noctilux can be stopped down and some may even consider using it as a general purpose standard lens. However the disadvantages of size, weight, balance, viewfinder blockage may be tolarated for f/1 or even f/1.4 during actual use but I must draw the line at smaller apertures. It is just my opinion that documentary or street photography do better with wider dof something f/1 cannot provide. I don't think anyone will be whipped and caned for using a Noctilux at f/2.8 :)

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), May 02, 2002.

"I do not quite understand your remark: the Nocti gives exactly the same DoF as the 'cron at same apertures, obviously... "

Is that true, though? My wife uses Nikon equipment professionally and she says that in her opinion the DOF of my Leica lenses is greater than that of the equivalent Nikon lenses (say M35/1.4asph v nikkor35/1.4). Something to do with the transition between sharp focus and OOF areas? I don't know. It seems wrong in theory, but she has her head screwed on pretty well, so I don't discount the idea.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 02, 2002.

Rob, the first difference between the Nikkon and Leica 35/1.4 lens I noticed was the same as your wife. The Leica wide open is much sharper than the Nikon, thus emphasizing the difference between "in" and "out" of focus areas. And this is a good thing- cause I now own the Leica!!! **James's grin**

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

Rob,

This seems to lead to the eternal bokeh discussion I think, rather than strict DoF maths.

I suppose one lens of a given focal length at a given aperture with a given subject might render an *impression* of a deeper depth of focus than another lens of same focal length, using same aperture and capturing same subject because of the way spherical and other aberrations step in once you are beyond the strict plane of exact focus....

This would not necessarily mean that the measurement of the circle of confusion would lead to mathematically "acceptable" figures in the instance giving deeper sharpness depth impression...

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

if you'd go for the summilux, you'd have the same filtersize on all of your lenses. very handy...

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), May 02, 2002.

You have to ask yourself the question of whether the benefit of having just 1 extra stop overide all the other disadvantages of the Noct. In terms of pure technical performance, the Summilux is better than the Noct at every F stop and convenience the Summilux again wins hands down. But the Noct's optical imperfections give it a fingerprint that no other lens can create and hence has a lot of followers.

I recently traded in a 50Cron for a Noct (to use as a general purpose 50mm), but have not had a chance to do any available dark shooting, so I cant comment on its F1 performance. Performance when stopped down is still pretty good, its not as crap as some people say.

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), May 02, 2002.

"Sure Cannon makes a 50mm f1.0. And the optical qualities are close, though not as beautiful or handsome as the Noct's optical abilities. You see, Cannon copied the optical design of the Noct."

The Canon designers would be very interested in reading this! Since the 50/1.0 EF Canon is an element element lens with an aspherical element, while the Noctilux is a seven element lens with very high refraction glass and NO aspherical element, this is VERY unlikely. Where did you get this information?

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 02, 2002.

Sorry. It should read the Canon EF-L 50/1.0 lens is an eleven element design while the 50/1 Noctilux is a seven element design.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 02, 2002.

Look at it this way. A fast lense of any sort is more the preserve of SLR's cameras for reasons that are specific - having to review the scene through the lens. This becomes more or less academic using a range finder. Thereafter, why the lense? Artistic factors or just to look good - this being mainly due to the fact that you have a fancy piece of expensive glass dangling from your shoulder. Strange stuff. Having grown up in school where a person at full height was the distance of 15 feet in the horizontal and 10 feet in the vertical, that an eighth of second was 3 clicks counterclock-wise and most of the work was done using a collapsible 50mm sumicron set at 5.6 and all of this using a single hand comes close to where its at in social documentary stuff - on the street that is. F 1 and faster lenses were essentially the preserve of X-rayography. One needs to figure out here the corolation here between that, documentary photography and posing ...

-- r coles (rcoles@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

Eliot,

I thought it was from Puts. There was a side by side schmatic of the 50mm f1.0EF and the Noct. The two different lenses had the same element design and almost the same shape. If this is now out of date, maybe Connon has changed the design of their lens. I have tried to find the source but at the monent I cannot find it. i will keep looking.

Noah, You may want to look at these sites http://www.nemeng.com/leica/040b.shtml beverlyhillscamera@earthlink.net You can rent a Noct http://www.luminous-landscape.com/noctilux.htm http://www.shinozuka-family.com/f1/index.html Great Images

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), May 02, 2002.

Canon has not redesigned the 50/1.0. It has always been an eleven element design with an aspherical element. I don't see how it is possible that this design could have been copied from Leica. I doubt you saw this on Erwin's site. It is just plain wrong.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 02, 2002.

I just bought a Noctilux a month ago and I'm thrilled by this lens in B+W or color at every f stop.It's amazing that one single lens can do so much. I think if I had to own one lens for the Leica M this would be it.The Noct will get the shot no matter what.But you have to like an smooth painterly look to the prints.I might like estimated focus from the hip better with a wider lens though.Again, this is the lens I use most now as I use slow film and need the speed.This is really an art lens for the Leica system.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), May 02, 2002.

ELOIT and NOAH Just talk to Pictureline in Salt Lake City, UT. The initial EF 50mm f1.0 did have the same lens esign as the Noctilux. However, it is a mute point because Cannon has announced about a month ago that they have discontinued their f1.0 (no more Cannon EF 50mm f.1.0). Now Noctilux is the only consumer level production lens with an apperture of f1.0. Pretty Interesting.

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), May 02, 2002.

Rob. Show me the evidence. The 50/1 EF is an eleven element aspherical lens. If there ever was a version that is 7 elements and like the Noctiux, there has to be some documentation of this somewhere.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 02, 2002.

Eliot and Rob,

I have in front of me now a photo magazine that I bought in Japan in 1989 while I was living there. It introduces the (then) new 50mm f/1.0 Canon EOS lens and actually has photos (images made with both lenses) comparing it to the 50mm f/1.0 Noctilux.

Upon introduction, this lens had 11 elements with one aspheric. There is a very detailed breakdown and cut-away view showing this (then) revolutionary lens. I have every EOS book ever produced in Japan since the beginning of the series, and there has only been one f/1.0 lens offered to the public, and this is it. If there was a Canon test bed based on the Leica lens, it was just that... a testing tool. There is however no mention of it in any of the detailed articles I have on this lens.

Just for completeness of my reference, this is from Nippon Camera volume 10, October 1989, pgs. 256-260

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), May 02, 2002.

Thanks for all the great advice. I think I'm going to take the plunge. I've decided to pick one up used and then, if I hate it, I can dump it and I won't be out much $$$. Also, I might very well use the money I saved to pick up a 50 'cron for outdoor use when I don't want to lug around the large glass.

By the way, the Canon was never a consideration for me. Now THAT's a large, imposing lens. Thanks again.

-- Noah Addis (naddis@mindspring.com), May 02, 2002.

Al and Eliot

Prior to the current 50mm f1.0 Canon made a 50mm F0.95. Do you know how many elements this lens had?

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), May 02, 2002.

Rob. I think the Canon 50/0.95 has 7 elements but I am not sure about that. It is from the 1950s (or early 60s) and has the reputation of being a very poor lens, to the point of being virtually unuseable at large aperture. To my knowledge, this lens was made in breech-bayonet mount for the Canon 7S/7SZ RF cameras and was also made in a TV camera mount. I don't think it was made in Leica SM. The lens is very big and is commonly found to have problems due to the heavy weight of the optical unit. I don't think Leica has to worry much about competition from this one!

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 03, 2002.

Eliot,

That was my point initially. That the Leica Noctilux was optically better than the Cannon 50mm f1.0 and that the Leica M system allowed you to shoot with two additional stops handheld. The two additional stop comes from being able to shot handheld (carefully) at 1/15th of a second due to cannon's mirror creating to much virbration and limiting the shooter to 1/60th. My point to Noah was that there is no rival to the Noctilux. But my point was lost, ignored or forgotten.

-- Rob Schopke (schopke@attbi.com), May 03, 2002.

Noah:

FWIW, here are a couple of the 1st pix I've taken w/my Noctilux, shot during last month's protests here in DC (Example #1Example #2). If you look closely, you should be able to see that although the DoF @ f/1 is very shallow, it still works for street shooting. I think the key to handling the lens is to treat it like a high-speed telephoto.

Chris

-- Chris Chen (Wash., DC) (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), May 07, 2002.

Oops, here's Example #2 again.

-- Chris Chen (Wash., DC) (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), May 07, 2002.