I've seen a few posts recently about having cameras sent to Japan for painting...for those of you who are interested, I saw yesterday a black paint M3 at the B&H used department yesterday for $3800.

It's been painted by Shintaro and then used heavily..how do I know? Cause I did it! However, it looks so real I feel I've created a monster! My question is, what's the responsibility here? I saw it up on ebay a few weeks ago and emailed the seller to inform him of it's less than legitamate standing (the bidding was up to 3350) only to find the auction ended early and then to see it again at B&H...

Hate to think someone's gonna be fooled by this one and pay WAY to much for a user camera. I think I sold it for 1100 here in the city to a photographer, I can't afford to buy it back (or argue with B&H) so just be careful if you're in that market. Check for those painted strap lugs and 'layers' of enamel that're heavy...and check the list. Any comments?

-- Carlin (carlinm@abac.com), May 02, 2002

Answers

Dont real black paint jobbies have some special serial number? Just curious. The guy who is paying 4K for this camera must be a bit of a nutter if he doesnt even know what he is buying?

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), May 02, 2002.

Genuine factory painted Leitz black paint M3s were made in small batches, and the serial numbers were officially released by Leica. They are listed in many standard references as well as on Stephen Gandy's cameraquest.com website. A knowledgeable collector would not be fooled. Working factory original black paint M3s on the official list are worth more than $ 3800 (usually $ 5000+ depending upon condition).

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 02, 2002.

Repainted black Leica cameras do not look like the older original black paint. But, still people pay alot of $$$ for repaints.I would think even B&H would know the difference.

-- chris a williams (LeicaChris@worldnet.att.net), May 02, 2002.

I saw a rare sports car "project car" on ebay being heavily bid that I knew about. It was totally misrepresented by the seller and had bids over $7000 on it. ("barn find" he said, easy restoration-yeah right,it sat outside in my neighborhood for 14 years and was rusted everywhere) I was tempted to notify the high bidder or ebay, but realized I'd just end up getting sued or something. I wouldn't lose sleep over it-at least you didn't represent it in a false manner.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), May 02, 2002.

eliot -- it is fairly well documented that there are some original black paint m3 cameras NOT on the factory lists published on cameraquest and elsewhere. while black paint (and black chrome) m4 production is fairly well documented, m3 -- and to some extent m2 -- black paint production appears to be less so. and by the by, i got bashed here a while back when i said that b&h was not the most reliable place in the world to buy COLLECTIBLE used gear. i speculated that they were more incompetent than dishonest (now i'm not so sure). i hope this story gives the bashers something to think about. the subject in the earlier thread was a grey wartime iiic which did not look rite to me. remember??

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), May 02, 2002.

Roger. In the first place, that gary wartime IIIc camera did appear genuine to me (and to several other very knowledgeable Leica buyers). In the second place, if it is not on the list, it is impossible to verify that the camera is an original black paint M3. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, the valuation of a black paint M3 is dependent upon its being on the list. There are undoubtedly genuine black paint M3s not on the list, but most collectors will not pay the substantial premium for these, since they are unproveable.

And Roger, aren't you the one who didn't know the difference between gray paint vs olive paint? :-)

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 02, 2002.

It would not be the first time b+h misrepresented a used camera. A few months ago , I bought a " dead meter " contarex for $250 . As it turns out , the meter was fully functional AND it had a data strip slot .

-- leonid (murkacat@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

were some painted ones custom jobs done by leica on request?

did leica reserve a batch of numbers for these painted bodies, or did they come off the line? one problem is assessing demand for the reserved no's.

i had a black paint m4 ($700) that i never got around to checking becaused i used the thing. i'm sure it was original, sadly stolen.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), May 02, 2002.

Steve, What makes you think it was sadly stolen? I'll bet the thief was pretty darn pleased!

-- Jack Matlock (jfmatlo@attglobal.net), May 02, 2002.

the M4 is sad because, like most thiefs, being low on the food chain, it was thought of not as a former professional's tool with a history, but as an old worn out brassy piece of junk. i'm glad it amuses you. have you had anything you worked for and paid for with after tax income, which makes the actual cost 50% higher, get taken from you; i think not. add insult to injury, the thief not knowing what they have stolen and getting just a few pieces of crack for it; the dealer not knowing much more (see above), stuffing it in a junk drawer or just using it for target practice. i would not wish it upon anyone.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), May 03, 2002.

There is a fine line now in E Bay and other auctions where 'willfull' ignorance is used to unload forgeries or misrepresent items. Besides black paint cameras there is a surplus of military leicas fetching good money. A case is point is that there is absoloutely no proof that a"reichsadler" was ever used on a Leica camera. leica company made no military markings except "Luftwaffen Eigentum" and FL38078/9 on military cameras. rest were work of indvidual units and so there is no reference accept one's judgement and Jim Lager's book.

-- Imran Ahmed (iahmed@cyber.net.pk), June 19, 2002.