I press..then a pause why!is it just electronic shutters or SLRs

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), May 03, 2002

Answers

Neither. Its a Leica M thing. It has to do with incipient psycho-chronosis, or in the case of motor driven M's, its called persistant incipient psycho-chronohysteresis, assuming you're shooting continuously of course.

In laymans terms, the camera is ahead of its time, as it always has been. In fact, its between 25 and 35 milliseconds ahead of its time, which accounts for the lack of lag. The shutter goes off before you actually finish pushing the release, because the camera, being in the future, is released already. The Leica M "knows".

Thought of in these terms, it may be easier to understand: Whenever you are, its now! Just a wee bit before "now" for a Leica M.

-- Charles (cbarcellona@telocity.com), May 03, 2002.

What are you talking about? What camera are you using? A complete sentence would help...

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), May 03, 2002.

This is a little-known but long-standing feature programmed into the vast majority of modern 35mm cameras (at least since the 1980's, maybe even earlier). Camera manufacturers realized that it was not at all difficult to create a simple algorithm that slowed down the shutter release when the photographer was pointing the camera at scene not worth recording. This "shutter lag" was and is intended to provide the camera user with tactile feedback indicating that they are wasting film and not capturing anything visually stimulating. When a camera is pointed at a worthwhile, moving, evocative, compelling tableau, there is never any shutter lag at all. You just have to hope your exposure and focus was correct.

The fact of the "shutter lag algorithm" points to one of the major problems with Leica rangefinder cameras. Since they essentially do not display any shutter lag in any shooting situation, Leica rangefinder users are constantly fooled into believing, and worse, trying to convince friends and acquaintances, that they are skilled, talented photographers simply because they use a Leica. Rumor has it that Leica considered incorporating the shutter lag algorithm, which is in the public domain, in the M7, but focus group research apparently showed that potential users would be turned off if their $2000 camera was giving them subtle feedback that their photography was from hunger.

-- David (davecasman@yahoo.com), May 03, 2002.

Jesters!

-- jeff (debontekou@yahoo.com), May 03, 2002.

Looking for honest answer.My Ricoh GR1 seems to pause when i press the shutter release(my M does not) why.I have missed some good photos with Ricoh.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), May 03, 2002.

Allan - the above are more interesting answers, but shutter lag is all too often a problem with electronic cameras. When you press the release of your M6 a plunger releases a tensioned spring, the spring releases tension and the shutter opens. Very quickly. A simplified version of what happens. With your GR-1 you press the shutter, a microswitch 'turns on' the A/F mechanism, which sends an infrared beam which hits your subject, then bounces back to the camera, setting the focus. At about this time the cameras meter is switched, the camera microprocessor searchs its memory banks for a brightness like the one in front of your camera, and then sets the exposure accordingly. Then the shutter fires. Sometimes it seems to take as long for this to happen as it takes to read the description. A couple of hints. If your GR1 allows you to shut off the auto features, and set the focus and exposure manually (not a lot of p/s cameras do this) it speeds things up considerably. The difference is only measured in milleseconds, but at times they seem like minutes.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), May 03, 2002.

Thanks Bob.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), May 03, 2002.

as above. In terms of speed fomr shutter button to shutter

-- Lacey Smith (lacsmith@bellsouth.net), May 03, 2002.

as above. In terms of speed fomr shutter button to shutter: 1. Copal or leaf (in the lens) shutters such as on old TLRs, 2. Leica Ms, 3. manual SLR (they have to time the mirror swinging up out of the way). 4. AF SLRs -- same, plus whatever autofocus, which can be quick 5. Medium format SLRs (bigger miror), then finally 6. most point and shoot autofocus cameras, in which the lag is terrible -- seemingly a second or two (also the point and shoot digitals). The non SLR digitals may be the slowest. All these timings are posted various places, I think the M timing is 50-60 milliseconds, and the slowest point and shoots can be easily be > 1 second. Yes, the Leica M is great for action capture (assuming focus and exposure set).

-- Lacey Smith (lacsmith@bellsouth.net), May 03, 2002.

A friend explained it as the length of time it takes you to realize that the shutter is not working because you forgot to advance the film. Do so and take the photo. Also known as an Oh Sh*t.

-- Al Henry (J Henry@provede.net), May 03, 2002.

Leica M shutter lag is 50 milliseconds, R 200 milliseconds, some autofocus camera 300-400 milliseconds

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), May 04, 2002.

If we take the M's synch speed as a rough indication of the time it takes for the curtain to travel across the film, we can guess that the moments recorded on one side of a negative could be up to 20 milliseconds more decisive than those recorded on the other side. The lag is a continuum. It is horizontal.

-- Masatoshi Yamamoto (masa@nifty.co.jp), May 04, 2002.

just for the record, a leica m (even the 7) has a shutter lag of 8-12 milliseconds -- not 50. by comparison, a konica hexar has a lag time of about 90 milliseconds.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), May 04, 2002.

Also just for the record - the V'lander bodies have lag just slightly better than a manual SLR. They have no mirror, but do have a second 'light-tight' shutter that has to open before the main shutter (I have no idea how long that takes - but it's less mass to move than a mirror).

The Nikon FA (among other electronic-shutter cameras) actually had delay built-in intentionally. It was Nikon's first camera with a shutter-priority exposure mode, and the mechanism by which the camera set the aperture was not perfectly accurate. So the FA stops down the aperture BEFORE it raises the mirror, sneaks a last meter reading through the shooting aperture, and then tweaks the shutter speed electronically to compensate for any small error in the f/stop. Even at 1/4000th second the FA shutter sounds like it's making a 1/8 second exposure (125 milliseconds) because of this intentional lag. Most of the Canon AE/AT/A-1 cameras and Minoltas from the same era (c. 1983) have the same drawn-out release cycle, for similar reasons.

Suffice it to say, with most cameras a chain of events, mechanical and/ or electronic, takes place when you push the shutter button. The LAST item in that chain is the opening of the shutter.

With Leica-M, when you push the shutter button, the opening of the shutter is the FIRST (and only) thing that happens.

But you have to give up TTL viewing/focusing, a perfectly light-tight shutter, and a lot of auto-goodies in order to get that response.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), May 04, 2002.

Martin. Roger is correct. The shutter lag on a Leica M is as small as any camera made, no more than about 8-10 milliseconds. This short a lag period will be perceived by the photographer as being essentially instantaneous. It is one of the niceties of the Leica M.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 04, 2002.

Btw SLRs with a pellicle mirror can be in the same league. Canon specified 6 ms for the EOS 1n-RS, so, theoretically, a fast electronic camera is easy to build.

Occasionally I wonder why so many people put up with slow cameras. Cameras used to take a picture instantly the moment you pressed the button. Then engineers designed P&S cameras whose lenses were retracted until the actual exposure was made. Then these cameras became even slower. Then digital cameras, with shutter lags and the multisecond range, appeared. And they sell better than hot cakes! I don't get it. The same people who accept that ("Ya know, that digicams have a tenth-second lag, so when I shot my friend on the snowboard I got a real impressive cloud of powdered snow without thim in the scene. Wow, these cams really help ya to take better pics") get mad when their PC needs more than a few milliseconds to save a file.

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), May 06, 2002.

Dont know if anyone has mentioned that the aperture blades closing on an slr prior to picture taking also contributes to shutter lag, whereas on the m, the blades are changed at the point you change the aperture ring. Anyway, shutter lag is only a relevant issue to missing the right moment, if you can set up the focus and exposure settings quickly enough to start with! :0

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), May 07, 2002.