hi guys...I have asked this before.

M3 body always gives Black Streaks on pics (AND WHITE STREAKS ON NEGS) whenever I shoot in outdoor sea scenes.

I have no explanation for the problem. Indoor pics is OK. The technicians checked the shutter and he said everything was fine. The lab gave STREAKLESS pics when I use other camera bodies. So I'd guess it must be the M3. The shutter cloth seems really LEAKLESS when I checked it against the sun.

A lens problem? I dunno. I used a 50 cron which was fine on the M4P.

Here is a pic with that problem. Please look at the CIRCLED area for the streaks. It is always at the same corner in every problem pic.

Please give any advice u may have. Thx

NB: The pic has been added geavy contrast so that u can see the streaks. In the actual print, it is VERY OBVIOUS.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002

Answers

Is the steak continuous on the who neg strip?

-- Karl Yik (karl.yik@dk.com), May 10, 2002.

Karl, NO.

The streaks is random , but they are constrained within a frame. It seems to me the streaks are formed DURING EXPOSURE, because they are not continuous throughout the whole negative strip.

The streaks seems to look like cloth patterns on the shutter cloth if u look closely at yours. I just dunno how it got there.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

I don't have an answer, but I do know that a white streak on a negative means less or no light reached that area, or else that the emulsion was partly or fully scraped away. Either of these would make a corresponding black streak on the print. If light were leaking through the shutter curtain, it would add exposure to the area receiving the light, thus making it blacker on the negative and lighter on the print.

Since the streaks always show up in the same area of the negative, my best guess would be that it's picking up some kind of reflection from within the camera body.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), May 10, 2002.

"Since the streaks always show up in the same area of the negative, my best guess would be that it's picking up some kind of reflection from within the camera body."

Hmmmmmm. Wouldn't reflections within the camera body have the same effect as a light leak in the shutter curtain, producing dark streaks on the negative? /r

-- Randy Samos (samos@lensman.net), May 10, 2002.

Looks like a dry or otherwise messed up shutter bearings to me (I think what you have is shaky shutter travel across the frame, showing up most obviously in flat tonal areas at high shutter speeds, where a bit of variation represents a greater percentage of the shutter speed). Time for a CLA.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

It is not the lens. I would have guessed processing, but if not that then it has to be the camera. Does it do this with slides too? Are they really black streaks?? It looks to me rather like uneven development. As others have said if it was light leaks/reflections then it would be white or lighter streaks on the prints. Are you REALLY sure it is not their minilab? If you eliminate all the obvious then you have to live with the result. I doubt it is the camera myself, whatever the lab say (they always tend to blame the camera/operator in my experience). I suggest you try some slide shots of a blue sky to see if you get it then.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Robin. The streaks are BLACK.

I have shot wth a Minolta SLR using the same lab, same scene. NO STREAKS.

It cannot be the lab. I have looked at other people's scenic pics from the same lab. NO STREAKS.

It has to be the M3 but I just can't explain this phenomenon.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

"Looks like a dry or otherwise messed up shutter bearings to me (I think what you have is shaky shutter travel across the frame, showing up most obviously in flat tonal areas at high shutter speeds, where a bit of variation represents a greater percentage of the shutter speed)."

This is what I first thought also. But ... the streaks are going the wrong direction for an uneven shutter travel to have caused them. (unless, of course, this was a landscape format image cropped to portrait). Certainly, it *could* be the shutter curtain itself. This sort of problem could show up in this direction if the edge of the curtain weren't straight.

Doubt that's the problem though. That's the kind of thing you see in Russian swing lens cameras.

/r

-- Randy Samos (samos@lensman.net), May 10, 2002.

OK, Travis, is this a horizontal picture cropped to vertical, or no?

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

A bad lot of film? Does it happen with color? You should be able to determine if something is scratching the emulsion.

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), May 10, 2002.

Michael...this is a vert pic, uncropped. The streaks occurs on the upper horizontal section OR aka the right vert section of the viewfinder. That is, the lower horizontal section OR aka the left vertical section of the FILM .

Preston. Color and B&W of various brands. The self developed b&w however, seems less affected.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Travis -

Another question - is there any consistancy as to when it might happen? For instance - does it always/only happen when you're shooting with a small aperature (like - always at f8 & smaller)?

/r

-- Randy Samos (samos@lensman.net), May 10, 2002.

Randy...I would hazard a guess that most of the problems occured during F8 and 1/500-1/1000 as would be needed in brightly lit sea scenes.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Given your description saying it was sea/sky scenes, the smaller aperature and higher shutter speeds would have been my guess on this.

Well now - Back to my earlier comment on Russian Swing lens cameras. They have a fairly common problem with a very similar streaking on them. This is caused by uneven machining on the slit mask within the cylander(read: shutter). Hard to believe this is such a common problem, given the Russian reputation for precision machining.

If the width of the shutter slit is not even, it can cause uneven exposure across a negative. Far more possible, and evident while using a higher shutter speed, where the variations in slit width are a much larger percentage of the slit width. This is the same reasoning that Michael used with shutter speed. Just that uneven shutter slit width could cause the problem in the direction you're seeing it.

But ... I still have say I can't believe this would be a problem with a Leica. But then ... I'm a very new Luser (just got my first M about 3 weeks ago).

/r

-- Randy Samos (samos@lensman.net), May 10, 2002.

If that was shot vertically I don't see how it could be a shutter problem (uneven curtain shutters show problems the other direction because of the direction of the motion). It might be impression on the emulsion when it's withdrawn from the canister or someting similar, and especially if it's bulk-loaded it could be the loader. That looks like roller damage from a processor though. It doesn't matter that other rolls looked fine, if those rollers get dirty or sticky or uncooperative it can affect the film almost randomly (in my newspapering experience). I'd be asking the lab about it.

That said, it could also be something leaving scratches or impressions on the emulsion from inside the camera, since that is the direction the film goes and the pressure plate or something might be doing it...

enough rambling from me, I don't really know.

-- dave yoder (dave@daveyoder.com), May 10, 2002.

Uneven shutter travel speed and uneven slit width can both cause streaking - but they are 90 degress out from each other in how they manifest themselves.

Not saying that it's uneven shutters though. Just that it's one of the things that could cause streaks like that.

/r

-- Randy Samos (samos@lensman.net), May 10, 2002.

uneven slit width :

Randy, what is that?

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Hi Travis,

Shoot a roll of B&W and send it to me. I will develop and contact it for you and I will check for streaks. I'll turn it around in a day and mail it back. This will at least eliminate lab problems. E-Mail me at home for my mailing address.

Regards Steve

-- Steve Belden (otterpond@adelphia.net), May 10, 2002.

Steve, thats very noble of u. Im very grateful.

But Steve, I have recently traded back that M3 for a dual range and 3.5 elmar. Im very happy about the switch.

I just thought some folks here might have experience this problem. But as I can see, there could be many reasons behind this. Im pretty sure Lab is not the problem because the streaks were there when I developed the film myself, abeilt less often.

Thanks againg for the lovely gesture, Steve.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

uneven slit width :

Another version of what I was saying--anything which causes the curtains (which travel completely independently of each other) to wobble in speed as they cross the film makes the slit opening of the shutter vary as it passes across the film, causing over and under exposure in bands. This would be more visible at higher speeds because the curtains follow each other very closely, and a 1mm variation that doesn't mean much at 1/30 can mean 2X exposure difference in stripes across the film.

If you're not following--the shutter speed isn't determined by the speed of the shutter--first one shutt curtain goes across, showing the film, and then the second follows, at the same speed, covering it. At 1/50 (flash synch speed) the first curtain goes all the way across, and then the second starts--the flash fires right at that instant when the whole frame is visible. From there on, each doubling of shutter speed represents the second curtain following the second half as closely to the first. So at 1/100, the first curtain gets halfway across before the second follows; 1/200, 1/4 way, 1/400, 1/8 way, 1/800, 1/16 of the way. 1/16 of the 36mm film width is about 2mm- -that's the width of the slit moving across the film to make the exposure, so a little wobble in the speed of one curtain can really mess things up in a way that wouldn't be noticed at slower speeds, calling for a CLA.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Travis -

You'll have to (actually, you don't have to do anything) forgive me, as I tried to point out, I'm a REAL new Luser - a recent SLR convert. So ... I don't know (yet) for sure if uneven slit width is a possiblity in the way a Leica shutter works. <> That said - Uneven Slit Width - The shutter "paints" the image onto the film by moving an opening (slit) in the shutter across the frame. In the case of the Leica, it's a vertical opening (slit) moving horizontally across the film. If there are physical aberation of some sort on one or both edges of the curtain forming the edge of the opening/slit, it could cause uneven exposure. It would completely depend on just what percentage of the actual shutter opening (exposure) were involved.

Things I don't know : How wide is the opening in the shutter during it's travel across the film in a Leica? - Is it even possible for a Leica shutter to have an uneven edge? - Why did they move the Simpsons to Sunday night?

/r

-- Randy Samos (samos@lensman.net), May 10, 2002.

Michael, excellent description. But that doesn't explain the pattern of the streaks in my case, does it?

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Horizontal shot uncropped. Same scene, about f8 1/1000. COntrast added to show circled streaks.

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Nope, but crummy roller developing sure does. I can't think of any other reason than the processing, myself. Any kind of physical pressure on the film, even if you could figure out something in the camera that could do it without scratching, would leave white streaks, not black ones.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Michael, say its the processing. But its on the negs. So the developing is at fault too?

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Unless it's crud on the metal edges of the shutter opening. Without film, shoot a frame, and then wind the shutter halfway and look from both the inside and outside at the edge of the metal cap on each curtain and see if there's somekind of crud buildup on the edge (the edge that doesn't clamp the fabric) of either cap. You're looking for something that would change the straight edge into a slightly toothed one. Based on your photos, I'd pay special attention to the edges towards the bottom of the camera.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

Michael -

Excelent description of the Leica shutter travel. Thanks.

This could still be caused by an uneven shutter edge. Instead of thinking in terms of the shutter traveling at differing speeds, what would happen if there were a few "bumps" right on the edge of one or both curtain edges? That would make the slit (consistantly) narrower right where the "bumps" were, causing streaks in the direction Travis saw them.

Once again - a disclaimer - I've NO idea as to whether or not a Leica shutter could exhibit a problem like this one. Can it even get a "bump" or uneven machining on the edge of a shutter curtain?

/r

-- Randy Samos (samos@lensman.net), May 10, 2002.

Travis,

There appear to be vertical strips of inconsistent image density across the full picture from top to bottom. Is it just the digitizing or do these vertical strips of uneven image density appear on the actual prints and/or negatives also? You did say this shot was composed vertically didn't you? Then these "problems" appear lengthwise on the film. Are they apparent on ALL shots from this roll?

Glad you solved the problem by exchanging the camera BUT someone else may inherit the problem now. Good shooting. LB

-- (lberrytx@aol.com), May 10, 2002.

Travis, I know exactly what the problem is, because I have had it too in exactly the same place. It happens when the edge of one of the blinds (the metal strips) is not absolutely straight and smooth up and down. It happens mainly at 1/1000 and sometimes at 1/500 depending on subject matter. At 1/1000 the shutter slit is very narrow, and where there is any imperfection on the metal edges (e,g. like a pimple sticking out) that spot causes slightly less exposure at that height on the film. As the shutter travels across the film this manifests it self as a darker (less exposed) strip on the film. At slower speeds the shutter slit is wider, so the proportion of the "pimple" to the size of the slit is much smaller, so it does not show itself as an exposure difference. The fact that streaks are strong on one side and they dissapear towards the other is because your slit is uneven from left to right. I f you make tests you will probably find that at 1/1000 one side of your frame is darker than the other side due to unequal shutter blind travek speeds. If all this does not make sense, get in touch with me.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), May 10, 2002.

Sait, thx for the info. But it still doesn't (I think) explain the pattern of streaks, which is running the LENGTH of the negative and not perpendicular to it, as would happen if it is a shutter slit problem.

Anyway, noone in my area knows why the problem arise, and of cos how to solve it.

Camera is TRADED. Life goes on. My bessa R has no such shutter problems. But hey, its also not 50 years old ;)

Thanks guys for all the input. Greatly appreaciate it. ;)

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 11, 2002.

Just to clarify that I understood what Michael, Randy and Sait said.

I believe that if there is a BUMP on the upper shutter edge of one of the curtain cloth, then as the shutter slit travels across the film, the track of streaks will be formed in line with where the BUMP spot is, BECOS LIGHT WILL BE BLOCKED. aM i RIGHT?

SO, according to my pics, I think there are a FEW BUMPS on the upper edge.

I hope i know what I just said!;))

-- Travis (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 11, 2002.