I posted this question at the Leica site and didn't quite get full info on this lense. I just bought an M7 with a 35mm f2. I love it and I want to expand to a 50mm. I bumped into an article by Seth Rosner where he claims the 50mm DR 11318/11118 - was the best ever. He quotes E. Puts "the 11819 50mm does't match the resolution of the DR". Rosner goes on to say that "the DR's advantage on the field over the 11817 and 11819 may be attributed to better correction of field curvature when stopped down, in addition being able to focussed to "19. This was a "7-glass" lense compare to the "6-glass" we now have. Do any of you have any hands-on experience with both of these lenses that you coul share with me. It will really help me - your imput will really be appreciated. Thank you.

John Ramos

-- John Ramos (tepito@pacbell.net), May 10, 2002

Answers

I don't think this lens works with the M7 or M6TTL.

-- Tristan (emulsion71@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

See Stepehn Gandy's detailed write up on the 50 DR at:

cameraquest. com/m50dr.htm

-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), May 10, 2002.

Of course the DR works on the M7, just like it does on the M6--you just may not be able to mount the close-focus "goggles" on account of the TTL & M7's extra height.

-- Chris Chen (Wash., DC) (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), May 10, 2002.

I was told by someone at a Leica shop that it is possible to use it without the (close-focus attachment). I don't know if you have notice this or not - and this is just an opinion. But in looking at the work of HCB the resolution of his images from the 40's to the 60's changed, I'm sure this had something to do with a variety of things, camera, film lense. I've read he preffered the 50mm, and the only reason why I mentioned this is in exploring my question, was that 50 really the one or are we better off with what we have? John Ramos

-- John Ramos (tepito@pacbell.net), May 10, 2002.

The DR 50 Summicron is one of the best, if not the best 50mm Summicron. I normally use the 11817 on my M6TTL, but on my M3 I use the DR. I prefer sharpness over contrast and the old Leitz lenses were lower contrast with excellent sharpness. 16x20's look amazing.

-- chris a williams (LeicaChris@worldnet.att.net), May 10, 2002.

I use a DR with my M2 and M6TTL. Make sure the lens is set to infinity or you will have problems mounting it. You can use the eyes on the TTL, if you remove the little pin from the back of them. As far as image quality goes, I am constantly impressed by this lens. It is tac sharp, blow ups to 16x20 show amazing detail. Although it is very sharp, it does not have the hardness to it that the newest Summicron has., which is too "harsh" for my taste. Bokeh is gorgeous, not just a perfect smear. The transition from sharp to out of focus is smooth as silk. The DR has a touch less contrast than the new Summicron, but I prefer that. Maybe it could be called that Leica glow. Flare suppresion is excellent. Lightsources aren't clinically clean and have character. Either way a DR and a roll of Plus-X is a combination that is hard to beat. This lens has a great fingerprint. The fit and finish of the DR is simply amazing. The first time you pick one up, you will know what I mean. I read somewhere that if Leica had to make this lens today it would cost a bloody forture. The close-up mechanisim alone is a brilliant piece of engineering. Overall this is my favorite 50. I also use a Elmar 50/3.5, Summar and Summitar. If I had to pick one, it would be the DR.

Cheers,

feli

-- Feli (feli2@earthlink.net), May 10, 2002.

My DR is really just the best lens I've ever owned for 35mm format. I think all Leica users should find one and give it a ride. And mine DOES work with my new M6, even goggled for the close-up range.

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), May 10, 2002.

If you like pics with amazing resolution and character in color or B+W, this lens (DR) is it. Wonderful!!!

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), May 10, 2002.

For many years I used Nikon F's with a variety of AI-S lenses. During that same period my wife used my M3 with a Rigid Summicron. Both of us used Kodachrome and the results were always projected rather than made into prints. Invariably, the results from the Summicron were preferred by anyone who viewed the results from the two camera systems. I still have the M3/Rigid and the Nikon gear has long since been replaced by Leicaflexes.

My most used combo now is the SL/2 with 60 Macro Elmarit but the last things I'd ever sell are the M3/Rigid Summicron.

-- Bud (budcook@attglobal.net), May 10, 2002.

John,

Forty-two years ago the 50 DR was the first Leitz lens I ever purchased.

It is the last lens I would ever sell. Handle and shoot with one and you will understand what I and the previous posters mean. Especially with transparency film.

Best,

Jerry

-- Jerry Pfile (Jerry Pfile@MSN.com), May 10, 2002.

if your gonna do b&w, get the dr, if color get a later summicron. much has been written about these lenses, look at the lhsa site for about 5-6 articles from erwin puts and keith posner (?) you wont regret it. i love my dr and wouldnt trade it for anything. sample of dual range on my m2, tri-x rated 100, medium yellow filter.

http://members.aol.com/thearea19/liberty.jpg

mike

-- mike pobega (thearea19@aol.com), May 10, 2002.

The current 50 Summicron is also an outstanding lens! :-)............................

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), May 10, 2002.

I had the 50DR, and it is an excellent lens for sure, but I didn't find it to be as good as the current 50, especially wide open. It flares easier as well, not having the benefits of multicaoating.

I find it interesting that certain lenses attain such cult status basically based on something written somewhere by someone I never heard of. The DR 50 is also very heavy, and prone to fogging like all of the older chrome lenses. Mine actually eventually had the internal coatings fail and was basically beyond economical repair.

So in answer to your question, I shot with both extensively and prefer the current 50 based on my results. If I had to chose between the two, I'd pick the current 50. By the way, the DR feature was more of an issue back then when the regular 50 only focuses to about 40 inches. The current 50 focuses to .7 meters, about 24 inches, without fooling with goggles and stage two focusing cams, etc.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), May 10, 2002.

The 7-element rigid and the DR are the same formula, so the heavier DR has no advantage other than close-focus. HCB used neither. Evidentally he made the switch from a Zeiss Sonnar to the collapsible Summicron in 1953 and used it on a succession of bodies, including the M6, for the rest of his career.......................

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), May 11, 2002.

This was taken at 5.6 or 4, or in betwen; this is my first summcron and love it, now I donīt use it so much because of crispier image wide open of newer one, this is also very heavy, this is a favorite picture made with this lense.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), May 11, 2002.

DR 50. FUji Color 400. Good lens, but its heavy. The later 50 crons are nicer to handle, abeilt harsh in contrast.

-- Travis koh (teckyy@hotmail.com), May 11, 2002.

I found the DR to be a "contrasty" lens similar to the current formula, especially from f4.0 on. The old collapsing Summicron lens was noticeably lower in contrast at all F stops.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), May 11, 2002.

The real issue today is finding a DR or chrome rigid without coating damage to the front element or internal fog which further reduce the already lower contrast compared to the later versions.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 11, 2002.

Andrew's post explains why HCB stayed with the flare-prone old collapsible, even though Leitz probably sent him each new version to try out. He was constantly exhorting Picto to print his stuff with LESS contrast. He wanted subtle gradation above all. As for Jay's post, which seems to appear whenever these lenses are mentioned: Yes, undoubtedly, and so what? Cleaning and recoating do not cost the moon. There is the risk that a particular example of any of the the seven-element lenses might turn out to be beyond repair but most can be fixed up nicely and then you've really got something speci

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), May 11, 2002.

Hi John, I love the DR lens. I bought it in Ebay and it's in Mint - condition. Something difficult to find for a lens which is approx 40 years old. The result is stunning. I took this shot without the shade.

50mm DR Shot 1

Greg

-- Greg (greg_choong@yahoo.com), May 12, 2002.

I used to own a D.R.Summicron that came on an M2-R body back about 1972. I still have the body but long ago swapped the D.R. for the much lighter 6 element Summicron. The 50mm Summicron was actually supposed to be 51.9 mm focal length. Since most weren't quite exactly the right focal length, Leitz would machine the rangefinder cam to work accurately with the lens. The Dual Range lenses were, I was told, EXACTLY 51.9mm focal length. It would be too hard to compensate if they were off. It's easier to use a 90mm at 3 1/2 feet than to carry around a HEAVY D.R. Summicron for the occasional "close-up". Coverage area is about the same.

-- Al Kaplan (preachrpop@aol.com), May 12, 2002.

The haze can be a problem. I have a very nice looking Rigid that I had professionally cleaned. But the haze that gets between the element cement is still there -- and it flares strongly at the right angle... I have not given up yet though and will look for a lens that doesnt have any haze.

-- Russell Brooks (russell@ebrooks.org), May 13, 2002.

At this point, physical condition is the most important thing with a DR Summicron. The closeup finder isn't much use, to be honest. It's still a beautiful lens. Haven't used a newer one, but based on my 20+ years using the DR, you should be happy with it. BTW, the instructions for the M6TTL state that the DR lens must be focused at infinity to be attached or removed. And the close-up finder will not fit without modification, as reported above.

-- Mark Sampson (MSampson45@aol.com), May 13, 2002.

I cannot thank you enough. I had heard about this site, how it was the best on Leica questions, I must agree with other people and say yes it is a fantastic place to learn and get information. Thank you for your patience, thank you, thank you.

John Ramos

-- John Ramos (tepito@pacbell.net), May 13, 2002.

If you plan to use it on the M7, I would buy a 50/2.0 rigid chrome [Wetzlar] Summicron, rather than the DR model. The rigid Summicron has the same optical formula as the DR, but does not take eyes. The reason is that as noted above, you cannot use the eyes on the M7, and the DR lens without eyes is no different from rigid chrome Summicron but has that ugly bar where the eyes would mount.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 13, 2002.

Eliot,

I will look into that, since I do plan to buy a Rigid Lense, you are right, I can't use the "eyes" on my M7. So, the Rigid Crom (Wetzlar) Summicron is a 7-glass as well? Interesting.

John

-- John Ramos (tepito@pacbell.net), May 14, 2002.

John. The 50/2 rigid Summicron chrome (made in Wetzlar from 1956- 1968) is a 7 element lens with an IDENTICAL optical design as the dual range Summicron. The optical units of these two lenses are the same. Thus, they will give identical performance, with the following proviso. The later versions of each lens had an improved coating. I don't know whether this makes any difference in optical performance, but the later coating is harder, and thus less likely to be scratched. Good luck.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 14, 2002.

I am using a DR since 20 years. To me this is a very fine lens, giving outstanding sharp pictures. It starts to be perfect from f4.0 and produces images with very fine details until f11.0 Contrast is lower than with newer 50 mm, but I sold the next model (6 glasses) to keep the 50 mm DR. With this lens I really saw difference in sharpness and colour rendition (pastel colours instead of high contrasty ones). Try it once on technical pan and you will see, also very nice on K64. I have kept also a later model of summicron 50, the one with the tab, because it is very good wide open and has higher contrast. Compared to the DR the newest model is able to take contrasty images in the shadow, at f2, or against the sun at f8, without flare (the DR flared here), but with visibly less details too. The DR has been optimised with other rules than the newer models: maximum sharpness with lower (but enough) contrast from f4. f5.6 to f8 are the best diaphragm values for it. The newer model give higher contrast, but less fine details wide open. Also colours are more contrasty than with the DR.

Actually, I use both summicrons according to the image I want.

If you want to shoot against the sun or wide open, you want contrasty coloured pictures, the later summicron is better (last model or the one with the tab). If you want to take candid photos of children, old ladies, "nature mortes", close- ups, with high resolution but smooth colours, the DR is the best one. It gives you picture no other lens can give, with the luxury of its fine mechanical construction. No new lens from Leica gives you the same feeling. New Leica lenses are often better than the older ones optically, but surely not mechanically. There you see that economies have been made.

Note, I have also used the last model of the summilux 50mm, which is also a very sharp lens, but less even in the field than the summicron (corners a bit less good). I found it too slow (rapidity to focus) and sold it.

I am using it on a M6 without problem and I do not care if it is set to infinity or not when I mount it on the body. I can even mount it with the goggles. The goggles I am using have no pin (directed to the body when the lens is mounted). This pin was made to touch the top of the camera when the goggle is put on the lens, when the lens is mounted on the body. This was made to be sure that the goggles is horizontal. With the M6 TTL and M7, maybe also the m5, the body is higher. The pin will therefore not come above the body but will touch the body instead. Therefore you will not be able to mount the goggle on the DR while mounted on the M7 or M6 TTL. This pin will also not allow you to mount the lens on any M body when the goggle is on the lens.

Conclusion: if you find a DR with a pin on the goggle, please unscrew that pin (or ask a repairman to unscrew it). I did it on mine and it works perfectly on the M6.

Best regards.

Dominique.

-- Dominique Bauduin (Dominique.bauduin@equant.com), May 15, 2002.

"I found the DR to be a "contrasty" lens similar to the current formula, especially from f4.0 on. The old collapsing Summicron lens was noticeably lower in contrast at all F stops."

AND:

"The real issue today is finding a DR or chrome rigid without coating damage to the front element or internal fog which further reduce the already lower contrast compared to the later versions."

I agree with both of these apparently contradictory statements. Here's why. I bought a fairly foggy DR that was being offered at a tempting price. I took it out and shot a roll of Delta Pro 100 at brick walls, bridge trusses and stuff. I kept my shutter speeds up to 1/500, typically, and the aperture wide. The result? Some very snappy pictures! Admittedly, I didn't do a comparison with one of my later 'Crons. (I'm thinking of quitting my job soon so I can have time for that.) It's just that I was pleasantly surprised with what I got from this foggy old lens. John Van Stelton at Focal Point has given me the go-ahead to ship it for a full CLA, and I'll be doing that soon. Then I can give a comprehensive shootout between it and the collapsible, the 69-79, and the tabbocron. Just as soon as I retire.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), May 15, 2002.

Yep the DR is a marvel of manufacturing in terms of build quality. I have read somewhere that the optical formula is the same as the normal rigid cron of the era, but the author of the article says that he was told by a Leica emplyee / dealer that tLeica hand selected and used the very best elements (ie the ones with least mnufacturing variation) Maybe this was in the source you read, I cannot recall, all I know is that it is nice to hold and use and give a real 50's Leica look to shots

-- Peter (peterm1@ozemail.com.au), May 16, 2002.

Both the DR and the Rigid Summicrons were assembled from graded elements selected to produce optimum results. There is no evidence that there was any difference in quality between the two.

-- Bud (budcook@attglobal.net), May 16, 2002.