This may sound like an interesting question, but I was curious what the Church's stance was on belief in ghosts. I was reading an archived newsletter from dads.org where the editor (Steve Wood) quoted a rather sad statistic, "More Catholic teenagers believe in ghosts, than in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist." At first, I was surprised then after a little while could better understand given the state of our society today. I mean given all the exposure a little kid edures from movies, t.v. and even cartoons, it is no wonder they believe in the "supernatural." Of course, even the term itself, "Supernatural" has been re-defined and re-appropriated to fit into secular society. I almost fell over when I read the term "Supernatural" in the Baltimore Catechism as though it were a new term, never known before that. Now, the word is thrown about all the time, but not having the same meaning as it had when the Church appropriated it way back when.

The statistic also makes sense in that if you take away all element of the spiritual, many will search elsewhere for a semblance of the supernatural. Of course, when these people find it, it is not really in the sense of the supernatural, but, rather, becomes a belief in superstition. When I went to visit a Friary one of the friars told me how he had seen that new trendy fish with the word, "Darwin" inside on this persons bumper, and around their mirror, a dream catcher. They give up God only to find their beliefs reliant on soothsayers, psychics, and astrologers. In fact, to cite that statistic again, 58% of those interviewed believe in Astrology (St. Joseph's Convenant Keeper Newsletter "A Letter From: The Editor.") It is rather sad that we can put all our faith and belief in this "sense" of the supernatural, without question or skepticism, but are more than adamant about denying another "sense" of the Supernatural.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas of their own to add, they are more than welcome.

"Live in the presence of God and you will have supernatural life." (Bl. Escriva The Way; 278)

"People see only the flat surface. Their vision is two-dimensional and fixed to the ground.

When you live a supernatural life, God will give you the third-dimension: height, and with it, perspective, weight and volume." (Bl. Escriva The Way; 279)

-- Brian (sacerdos@hotpop.com), May 10, 2002

Answers

Brian,

That is indeed a very sad problem, and in fact I hope to build my senior project around using proper homiletics to restore faith in the Real and Substantial presence of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus. I'm an English major, philosophy minor, with a deep dark secret passion for theology (shhh! Don't tell my formation advisor!) But I have the tools to work appropriately WITH theology.

When dealing with the rank-and-file Catholic, it's better to be an English major than a theology major--one must learn how to speak to the heart.

With regard to your question, there is no period after death before which judgement occurs; God knows your destiny the very moment you lose consciousness for the last time. Furthermore, there are no places to go to after death besides 1.) Heaven and 2.) Hell (purgatory isn't really a "place"... neither really are the other two in the sense we understand it, but that's another discussion entirely)

So how to we explain ghosts? I have no doubt that people truly do experience the supernatural. Items move without cause, voices are heard, and one person I know even saw a vision of dead people she knew. She prayed to God--"God come to my assistence, Lord make haste to help me,"and never saw them again.

The fact that the visions of ghosts went away with a prayer says something about the nature of ghostly apparitions. Far from being the ethereal energies of deceased spirits, they are most likely infernal interferences with the natural world.

That's right: them's the devil's business!

Satan is the father of lies; remember, he can appear as an "angel of light". Think of all he has to benefit from by dazzling us with visions from the dead:

-They turn people of unsure faith towards the occult and various forms of demonic worship-- uege board, anyone?

-They make the viewers believe themselves to be visionaries and psychics, and give them the illusion of having special powers.

-They distract from the truth--indeed, they steal away un-Catechized teenagers from the Real Presence!

-They make belief in the unseen seem absurd.

-Visions of deceased loved ones are the most hateful and vile form of infernal cruelty; they mock our beloved dead and cause some to despair of God's love and salvation.

They say that Satan's greatest trick was in fact a disappearing act; he made people forget that he exists. C.S. Lewis also wrote that demons rejoice equally at the materialist and the magician, both of whom would land squarely in the house of "their father below."

Follow the advice of countless Fathers and St. John of the Cross-- disregard your apparitions, both angelic and demonic! Think nothing of them! Heavenly visions will give their graces to the soul without the need for conscious dwelling, and infernal deceptions are powerless if you do not acknowledge them!

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), May 10, 2002.

There's a good book in print, "Ghosts and Poltergeists" by Herbert Thurston, S.J., put out by Roman Catholic Books. I've always thought that perhaps the souls in purgatory at times appear to their loved ones to implore them to pray for their release from purgatory. And to serve as a warning to others to change their lives. Kind of like "A Christmas Carol" by Dickens.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), May 11, 2002.

I must agree with the spirit of Jeffrey's post, though, in that one should not go looking for occult phenomena - it can get dangerous.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), May 11, 2002.

Very very fine thread Jeffrey. We have forgotten the spiritual side of our faith. In fact to me faith and spiritual life are synonymous. Religion being the outward manifestation of faith in a manner of speaking in an individual.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 11, 2002.

Jeffery

I am interested in your thoughts on mystical saints who are approved by the Church such as many in the middle ages but also modern like St. Faustina. Anyone reading her material "will be edified" but I wonder if it is the best reading material for gullible souls (perhaps we are all gullible souls). Such reading may cause one to believe in voices of their own. Or cause one to believe in unapproved visions. What do you consider to be "safe" Catholic literature for the average lay person, who needs something a little interesting but is also easily swayed. Or maybe I answered my own question, that is, someone who doesn't look to be amazed or excited by Catholic literature is also one who is not easily swayed and is one who found God through his Catholic Church.

So the question, of the approved material, and in light of the topic for this thread, what is safe literature?

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 11, 2002.

Jeffrey,

I, too was an English major and Philosophy minor, have a degree in it as a matter of fact. As to your answer, I would reply, but I think you did fairly good job covering all the bases, as it were. I posed the question more out of curiosity and the fact that I know a lot of people that would put all their trust believing in ghosts and yet become highly skeptical when believing in anything relating to the "spirit" world in a Catholic context.

Christina,

Thank you for the book recommendation, and I will make sure to check it out whenever I can.

Mike H,

I think you brought up a good point and a reason why many of the Saints probably recommended a Spiritual Director when advancing in the path to holiness. It is easy to be deceived by your own active imagination or desires when reading the life of the Saints, and more specifically, those that were given the title, mystics. In fact, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross wrote extensively on this same exact problem when trying to live a life of holiness. Essentially, they say, you take everything with a grain of salt, and distrust everything, including your own self. When reading any Saint, always remember that God calls each person in their own way, and the gifts He bestows on one, He may not see fit to bestow on another. For example, God saw fit to bestow many many gifts upon Bl. Padre Pio, but of those same gifts, the stigmata for one, He did not see fit to bestow upon St. Faustina. Some of the Saints had visions and locutions, others did not. Some of the Saints performed miracles when they were here on earth, others were not given that privilege until they were in Heaven.

Personally, if you are looking to read the lives of the Saints, pick one whom you are attracted to, and read all about that persons life. Don't be distracted by their gifts, and beseech the Holy Spirit for Holy Prudence if you feel that their gifts are more appealing to you than the life they sought to imitate, that of Christ. Never forget that the reason the Saints did what they did was to fulfill God's Holy Will, no matter what the cost. A Saint is merely a man or woman who sought to live the virtues to a heroic degree, and all those that have been canonized or beatified are examples of this heroism. Bl. Padre Pio praying 60 rosaries a day while hearing confession for hour upon hours, St. Francis of Assisi living poverty to the utmost degree because Our Blessed Lord had no place to rest his head, St. Maximillian Kolbe laying down his life for another to save a poor stranger from execution. All of these are merely examples of their great desire to live a perfect life in direct imitation of Our Blessed Lord. However, if you want to learn about one of the greatest Saints who suffered the most with Christ Himself, and lived all of the virtues to a heroic degree then pick up a rosary and reflect upon the mysteries contained therein. The overabundance of wisdom contained in that "book" is neverending.

Good Luck and God Bless

-- Brian (sacerdos@hotpop.com), May 11, 2002.

Brian,

Excellent response. I can tell you have a degree. :)

Christina,

I've known enough Jesuits to know that some of them tend to be a little... creative with their theology. I don't know who told them that Catholic doctrine was their easle to paint on, but you might use some of that salt Brian talked about and save some for the Jesuit books.

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), May 11, 2002.

Jeffrey, it's true what you said about most modern-day Jesuits, except those like Father Hardon, Father Kenneth Baker, Father Miceli, etc. The Thurston book is a reprint from the early 50's and anything printed by Roman Catholic Books (which does mostly reprints) is "safe" reading.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), May 11, 2002.

Well, sins I not be eddicated, I haff developed a simple anser to the problem of the supernatural, ghosts, dreams, etc. That is, when something *unusual* happens, call on the Lord Jesus for assistance! If the spirit/vision is from God, they should be rejoicing! If they are from the Devil, I'd think otherwise. Personally, I don't think myself strong enough or wise enough to sort through the Devil's deceptions, and it's easier to try and avoid them, and keep focused on God. Maybe it's wrong to stick your head in the sand, but better that than be washed away!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 12, 2002.

About all this business of ghosts and the "supernatural" I read an excellent book by a Jesuit priest, Fancisco Gonzalez Quevedo: EL ROSTRO OCULTO DE LA MENTE. It deals with such matters as telekinesis, gohsts, photogenesis, hyperstesis, phantasmogenesis, etc. etc. Since then my mind is at rest and no "supernatural" phenomenons seem to come my way, thank God. Add to all this my daily prayers and readings of Holy Scripture, the recpetion fo Christ in the Eucharist and I feel that God and His angels are on my side. "What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us?" (Ro, 8,31)

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 12, 2002.

I know this really isn't really an answer and i couldn't help but look on the internet to see if anyone has gone threw some of the scary crap i have. And i was wondering if anyone knows if there could be an evil presence that could follow a person and like warn them before hand that something bad is going to happen, cuz i mean there seriously is a black shadow that comes in my sight and scares me and the next day or so something bad happens, i really believe that this stuff is real and i am going to peove that as soon as i get all the evidence that i need to get to prove it.And anyone who helps me would be awesome, cuz i can not do this alone.

-- Jessica Allen (hersheykiss1988@hotmail.com), March 13, 2003.

Jessica,

Are you imagining things? Probably not. The presence of a dark shadow with an evil sense is not unusual. But understand something, that shadow isn't necessarily warning you about the "bad event" that's about to happen, it's more likely the cause of the bad event. You see, that evil shadow is a demonic being - something from the pit of hell. God's angels don't work in the shadows like that, and you'd never get a sense of evil from them. And since it's demonic, even if it appears to be "helping" you, by it's very nature, it's really trying to hurt you - it's goal is to lead you into darkness. It'll try to accomplish it's goal anyway it can, even if by appearring to be your friend.

My suggestion is to not to try to tackle this thing on your own. Don't be "fascinated" with it or attempt to prove something by gathering evidence. The more you are drawn to it (even by curiosity), the better chance it has of gaining a foothill in your soul. For some reason, this evil thing has attached itself to you. Have you ever experimented with Ouiji boards, seances, palm-reading, Wiccan practices, etc. Dabbling in the occult can leave one open to demonic attachments. So can curses or spells placed on you by others who are dabbling in the occult - so are your friends or relatives into such things? You need help from someone who's familiar with dealing with such matters. Seek out a priest/minister who is experienced in deliverance. Many charismatic priests/ministers know what to do. This is serious stuff Jessica, don't mess around with it.

God bless you.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), March 14, 2003.

. . . not "foothill", meant to say "foot hold" :-)

dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), March 14, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Dave B and Jessica.

As Dave mentions in signing off, he is not Catholic. This is a Catholic forum, so I think that I need to speak up for a moment here.

Dave gave you some good info and advice, especially in his second paragraph ["My suggestion ..."]. However, he made at least one statement in the first paragraph that a Catholic layman could never make. I don't consider Dave qualified to make the statement, so I advise you to ignore it. Speaking of the "black shadow" you mentioned, Dave's words were these:
"You see, that evil shadow is a demonic being - something from the pit of hell."
I don't consider Dave capable of knowing what the "black shadow" is and speaking definitely about it as he did. It would have been acceptable if he had written: "Perhaps that 'shadow' is a visible manifestation of an evil spirit, though the Catholic Church does not consider me qualified to say what it is."
And so, Jessica, please do not let Dave's words inspire a great fear in you. Trust in Jesus, and discuss this with your nearest Catholic priest.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 15, 2003.

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-- <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 16, 2003.