Let me first start out by saying THANK YOU VERY MUCH to those true believers who take the time posting such excellent material in this forum.

I myself am Catholic and am truly grateful that God has allowed me to not only find such wonderful support as exists here, but the ability to distinguish it from the other absolute heresy which also exists. It was quite coincidental that I stumbled across this forum. Looking for support in my own personal battle against satan's hand attempting to influence someone I love very much, one of your threads was returned in a google search and thus, I found you all!

Let me also ask all of you to please have patience when reading my very lengthy text; I believe it is necessary to fully understand and help me address my situation.

I am trying to show Megan, the woman I love very much, that abortion is wrong. Although Megan considers herself to be Methodist, she must understand that regarding abortion, she has been taught completely un-Godly ideas. She has always been told that abortion is a choice. I do not wish to bash her in any way, but am having a terrible time even getting her to listen to what I have to say. I care far too much for Megan to not address this issue very seriously, which is sometimes very painful.

We are both young and not yet married. We also know that we never will be unless we can work this out, reaching an answer that is acceptable for both of us. After many months of dating, this issue concerning abortion has come to surface with all its fury. Based upon our difference in this matter, we decided that we must rethink our relationship. She is most reluctant to even consider my position, yet I refuse to give up on her.

With all of the absolute brilliance that exists here, please help me find not only the correct answers, but the proper way of explaining them to Megan. I love her dearly and will not allow satan to claim her for his own, even in such a miniscule situation as most non-believers would decide this to be.

I must also ask that those disagreeing with me, who cannot discuss this issue in a civil manner, please do not respond. I have neither the time for childish antics and name calling, nor the ill “logic” of those who do not believe in God. I thank you all in advance for your help and wish you all the grace of God.

Michael

Everything in my post below the dotted line has been my correspondence with Megan since my heart recently began to break over this issue. Please note that you may have to start at the bottom and read "up" to realize who wrote what.

WHEW, HERE GOES NOTHIN'.... ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------

Dearest Meg,

I am glad that you took the time in responding tonight.

-----"What exactly were you trying to accomplish by sending me this e-mail?"

I wish to help you find within yourself a sense of right and wrong that I believe we all have been given by God. I wish to help you see things through God’s eyes, not through someone else's evil idea of what they perceive to be correct. I wish that you make clear, educated decisions that are your own, not someone else's. I wish that you soon discover that even those very close to us can lead us astray, just as quickly as those not so close to us can lead us back. I wish you to not only question every facet of life in an honest and open manner, but seek out those who know the proper answers to whatever questions you may have. I wish that you use the extremely great talents that God has given you in always having the strength to follow through to the end in your quest for what is right.

-----"One thing that you have not come to a full understanding of is the fact that I don't necessarily agree with abortion, but I do disagree with taking a woman's choice away from her."

Megan, very simply by your following statement, you contradict yourself: "...it is an awful, selfish act."

What if a man wanted to rape a woman? Who is to say that he cannot make that choice? It is after all his body to do with what he pleases. Should we take away his right to do with his body as he pleases? Wait just a minute, am I forgetting something? What about the woman he were to rape in order to fulfill his wishes of doing what he pleases? Ahh, but the rapist is a very smart and wise man, who was very careful as to who he chose. The rapist selected a woman who was deaf, mute, and mentally incapable of any decision in life other than what her body does involuntary in order to keep her alive. This woman could not even hold her head up, feed herself, walk, or faintly communicate with others in any definitive manner. Taking into account the righteous standards that you have been informed to be correct, would you have any problem with this theoretical case of the man retaining his "choice" and thus raping this helpless woman?

It is absolutely dastardly that someone who calls themselves a human being believe that this horrible scenario should be acceptable, yet also that they cannot make the clear and concise connection to killing another human being, not only in the safest of all places, the womb, but in the untainted state of being not yet born.

How is it that with undue haste and no sign of clear thinking, you can even suggest that this be a very simple case of a woman's choice? It is not a choice.

How can you honestly believe that a human being, simply because s/he has not yet been born, should have absolutely no choice in the matter? What about the "choice" of that unborn child. After all, if the unborn child did not care to live and wanted to abort itself, why would s/he not kill him/herself somehow, while still in the womb? This does not occur because the baby has not yet been born into this world we live in, and thus has no knowledge of such absolute evil as the killing of another human being by our "choice". The baby should also retain a "choice" in the matter.

Megan, I have been witness to videos of babies being aborted. I have seen with my own eyes a 7 week old fetus attempt to outmaneuver an abortionist's sucking tool during a live abortion. I watched in horror as the baby's heartbeat increased from a normal 120bpm to well over 200bpm. The baby kicked and struck repeatedly until its left leg came too close to the end of the sucking device of the doctor. In a mere few seconds, the baby was ripped apart. Legs, arms, and torso were all vacuumed out very tidily from the woman's womb in this perfect example of a woman's "choice" prevailing over those who wished to “take it from her”. I immediately broke down in tears when it struck me what I had just seen. I cannot express to you the pain that immediately racked my entire body. I had seen what modern day society has deemed a legal murder taking place right before my very own eyes. I still have nightmares that I was that baby and had no "choice" in the matter. Oh, I almost forgot to mention, the baby's head was at 7 weeks actually too large to be removed from the woman's womb by the suction device in the current state that it was in. The doctor performing the abortion employed the use of a pair of stainless steel tongs to crush the baby's skull before it was of acceptable size to be properly removed without injury to the mother. I can hardly believe there would be any human being that would not find it appalling to not only say, “crush the baby’s skull” and “without injury to the mother” in the same sentence, but to somehow find it acceptable.

-----“ What would you have me do if I were to get raped? Are you going to straddle the line on this issue?”

NO, I have never in my life straddled the line on any issue. It pains me greatly to even imagine that there are indeed those in our society that would snatch you up in a moments notice and have their way with you, without a single ounce of remorse. In the case that any female were raped by another male and subsequently become pregnant, I still do not believe that abortion is the absolute right decision. The life that is created as a result of this horrific act is a life nonetheless. I do not believe that it is right for a human being to take the life of another human being, no matter how seemeingly minute, even in the case of rape.

-----“I do agree with you that yes, it is an awful, selfish act. But I would rather a woman have the choice to make rather than a society tell her what to do with her body.”

Please inform me when it was ever stated at least one time by Jesus Christ that we can do whatever we like with our bodies. Does a society that exists in the year 2002, on the North American continent, calling itself the United States of America, have any claim on teaching us the difference in right and wrong, simply because of that society’s existence in the universe? I believe that the mere existence of our modern day society in the U.S., given the capacity of the utter wickedness that occurs every day, means nothing more than that God has possibly been looking the other way a little bit too long.

I have no understanding of why persons exist, calling themselves Christians, yet refuse to not only listen to what He taught in the form of words that actually came out of His mouth, but even worse yet, not refrain from spewing forth evil contradictions of His word. Wait just a second, a realization has occurred. Satan exists. Evil exists in this world. Could it be plausible or even possible that Satan himself is controlling a great deal of persons in not only our society, but all societies around the globe? Yes, it is more than plausible or possible, it is without a doubt occurring every second of every day within all societies on earth.

Every day that I wake up and go about my business, I encounter Satan. He first greets me when the alarm clock goes off. Satan tells me to be lazy and stay in bed. Instead, I get out of bed. In the shower, Satan tells me to go ahead and use up all the hot water, rather than leaving some for the next person. Instead, I turn off the water. While getting dressed, I check my email. Satan is there too. He tries to get me to go to the pornography sites that his minions host. I go instead to www.vatican.va and look for answers to my questions in the online Catechism. Next, it’s out the door and to the car. Satan suggests that on the way, I steal the newspaper my neighbor has not yet picked up from his yard that morning. Instead, I pick it up and throw it right up on his doorstep, so that he not have to walk so far in retrieving it. While driving to work, Satan would have me scream and yell at the person who accidentally cut me off. Instead, I smile and wave that it’s okay. Need I go on to more profound examples of how Satan directly controls individuals without them even having the knowledge of the occurrence?

I firmly believe that in the video of the abortionist chasing the baby around the womb with the suction tool, it is indeed Satan’s hand in action. I do not see a difference between the horrible deed of the abortionist murdering that baby and those who very simply tell others that abortion, in any form, should be acceptable. There is a breakdown in the logic of those who cannot see beyond something as a “choice” that is either afforded them or taken away. There is no “choice” to be made or taken away. Precisely in the same manner that we cannot walk around killing those on the street of differing view points as a “choice” that society gives or takes away, can we neither view abortion as a “choice” that any society can decide.

It is God the Almighty, already having spoken through his Son, Jesus Christ, who has given us His laws to live by. He has already decided our “choices” for us in this matter of murder that our society calls “abortion”. Who are we to ever question what God has unequivocally expressed to us over 2000 years ago? Do you honestly believe that Jesus Christ Himself would have expressed His Father's decision that it be a woman or a man's choice to kill an unborn child? The words that Jesus Christ himself spoke, as quoted in the scriptures reveal that, "Whoever welcomes a child such as this for my sake welcomes me. And whoever welcomes me welcomes, not me, but him who sent me."

How does one go about taking the issue of murder, twisting and confusing it so long until it could possibly be viewed as a choice that is delegated by other human beings? I do not understand that in such profound numbers, our society has somehow found this to be acceptable. It is truly Satan at work! Why is it that we do not only refuse to silence our fellow man when he speaks with the tongue of Satan, but allow this corruption to spread at such a rapid pace that it threatens to destroy mankind itself? I believe that when correcting our fellow man, this should come in the form of the word of God, but where does one draw the line as to what becomes too much or too harsh of a correction? Watch out, the answer is coming!

The miracles that God performs everyday never cease to amaze me. I say this due to the existence of the Catholic Church. In answer to my own question above, it must be that it is God himself who, directly through the Pope, has already decided these answers for us! What an enormous weight it is from my shoulders that I must not spend my entire life searching for the right answer; it is right in front of me! Imagine that we do no longer have to worry about what decisions to make in these circumstances that we do not actually have a right to decide for ourselves! God has already spoken through His Son Jesus Christ and given us the answers to questions that will infinitely escape those who do not believe and trust in Him completely!

ABORTION IS MURDER! MURDER IS EVIL! UNLESS YOU ARE EVIL, YOU MUST OPPOSE NOT ONLY ABORTION, BUT ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU THAT IT IS OUR CHOICE! IT IS NOT OUR CHOICE, BUT GOD’S CHOICE!

Megan, I indeed love you very much. I love you more than anything I have ever encountered in this life, short of God Himself. I cannot and will not allow anyone to taint the pure heart that I see in you. Every time I look into your eyes, I see something new that I have never seen before. I see not only amazing beauty, through and through, but also endless strength and intelligence that must prevail in seeing beyond what everyone else will never succeed in even understanding. I see in you so many wonderful things that in others I see no trace of. Please understand that much of what I have written above, I find difficult to tell you. It is difficult for me because I do not want to injure you in any way, but refuse to stand idly by and allow anyone to think that I shall allow us to be broken apart. I have not slept more than a few hours on most nights since that Sunday when you returned from Dallas. I cannot live without you in my life, nor will ever be able to get over you. I do not understand why things in life are so difficult at times. It is indeed a greater power that knows what is best for us and guides us accordingly. I have no other choice but to fight for what is in my heart and for what I know is right. That includes fighting for us and our future together. I completely trust that you love me very much and would never allow anything bad to happen to me. Please do not allow this terrible thing to happen to us.

I wholly believe that every time you have ever told me that you love me, you have indeed meant it with every ounce of your being. I feel within myself, without a doubt, that you still love me with everything that you are. I know that love you absolutely, with everything that I am, and will never cease to express that to you in every way possible.

Michael

-----Original Message----- From: megan To: Michael Sent: 4/30/2002 1:42 AM Subject: Re: the little ones

What exactly were you trying to accomplish by sending me this e-mail. One thing that you have not come to a full understanding of is the fact that I don't necessarily agree with abortion, but I do disagree with taking a woman's choice away from her. What would you have me do if I were to get raped? Are you going to straddle the line on this issue? I do agree with you that yes, it is an awful, selfish act. But I would rather a woman have the choice to make rather than a society tell her what to do with her body. megan

----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Sent: 29 April, 2002 10:57 PM To: megan Subject: the little ones Megan,

In attempt to appeal to the woman i fell in love with, I ask that you please read this and think about it. I hope that someday you will begin to understand that life is more than what you view as a "choice".

michael

The Little Ones

He cries for the little ones, for the little ones He cries He mourns for the little ones, whose lives pass us by.

Through the hands of violence and absence of love, their cries have been silenced by the shedding of their blood.

It's an ungodly harvest by doctors of death, whose hearts have been blinded by Satan's evil quest.

Little lambs to the slaughter on the altar of ease, no words can they offer -- not 'Please Mother Please!'

We pray for the little ones -- for the little ones we pray, we pray for the little ones, never seeing the light of day.

We cry to the Lord -- How long will you wait! For vengeance is His and He will repay.

For the lives of the innocent He will vindicate, for justice and mercy is His middle name.

America, the Beautiful -- God shed His grace on thee Your hands are red with the unborn dead while Satan shouts with Glee.

* * *

Into His bosom they fly, little angels that light up the sky, tiny wings never learning to fly -- Twinkling stars, your lights still shine!

Oh God, maker of heaven and earth, save us from our destruction!

----------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------

WOW, that was really long!! Sorry for putting you all through that, but please consider that I would have never done so if I didn’t think that you all could enlighten me as to my mistakes or otherwise. I look forward with great anticipation the many fruitful responses that I hope to receive! Thanks again for your patience, time, and energy!

Michael

-- michael reithmeier (mikereithmeier@hotmail.com), May 12, 2002

Answers

top

-- top (123@123.com), May 12, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Michael R.

First I want to commend you for what you are doing. You have wisdom beyond your years. Not only do you know what it means to be a true pro-lifer, but you know that the present conflict must be resolved before you can make plans to marry Megan.

You are off to a marvelous start. You have said so much and so well that there is not a great deal to add.
-- You have not watered down your message. Megan knows just where you stand.
-- You have expressed yourself with deep emotion. Let us hope that Megan too will be moved.
-- You have told Megan of your great love for her, and you are not condemning her for believing wrongly.
-- I assume that you are praying for Megan, because that is the single most important thing for you to do. You can present 100% of the possible arguments to her, and you can present them eloquently, but if her soul is not touched, she will not change. Prayer touches souls.

Your task is very difficult, Michael R., because you must overcome many years of Megan's hearing a litany of pro-death propaganda, not just from the media, but probably within her own household. This can be done only with God's help. Some people are resistant to his grace, so please admit to yourself now that Megan may never "come around."

If the day comes on which Megan says that she has changed her mind, please act prudently and don't rush forward immediately with marriage plans. I don't want to assume that she would be dishonest, but, in a moment of weakness, she may pretend to give in, seeing that this is the only thing keeping you apart. She must not only come to agree with you in words, but also prove it with deeds -- perhaps through some form of pro-life activism in which the two of you can share together. She must reach the point of being able to say, with conviction and demonstrative action: "Every abortion is murder. Every abortion kills a child. Every abortion harms a mother, the medical people, and all of society. Every abortion offends God, who created the child's soul. No abortion is justifiable, not even following a rape."

Megan is closer to the right position than some women are. She admits that she doesn't "necessarily agree with abortion" and that "it is an awful, selfish act." But she still has a long way to go, because she openly clings to three fallacies:
1. That abortion is "a woman's choice" (her words).
2. That abortion has to do merely with "her [a woman's] body."
3. That at least some abortions are justifiable (e.g., after rape).

I wish that, before you had posted your message, you had received a reply from Megan -- so that we could see if your message and prayers have hardened or softened her position (i.e., so that we could see whether or not any of her three fallacies have broken down or if any new ones have been exposed). But we can proceed even without waiting for the reply.

On Fallacy #1 (that abortion is "a woman's choice"):
Abortion -- the killing of an innocent, defenseless human being -- is not "a woman's choice," regardless of what Planned Barrenhood or the Supreme Court says. You must emphasize the personhood of the unborn and the fact that society protects its most vulnerable members, rather than kill them. A woman has no more "choice" to kill an unseen baby than to kill a seen adult, no matter how "inconvenient" the adult or child may be. God's law against murder is written on Megan's heart and on the heart of every other expectant mother. Although a woman has a physical "choice" to do right or wrong -- free will -- the natural law and God's law, which supersedes our faulty civil laws, completely denies that a woman has any morally good "choice" other than to bring her baby to term. It is a Christian principle that an unjust civil law is no law at all. Every civil law that permits a "choice" to abort is an unjust law -- unjust to the child -- so it must be ignored, not used to "cover up" the guilt of a heinous crime.

On Fallacy #2 (that abortion has to do merely with "a woman's body":
Although an abortion is a procedure that takes place within a woman's body, it is not carried out primarily on a woman's body. Rather, it is an act of homicide perpetrated on a second body -- the body of a baby, a second human being, a second person. Anyone who would be so foolish as to deny this knows nothing of biology.
No woman has two different sets of genes/chromosomes -- one in most of her body and a second in her womb. Instead, the second set of genes/chromosomes belongs to a different person, the baby.
No woman has two hearts beating -- one in her chest and a second in her womb. Instead, the second heart belongs to a different person, the baby.
No woman has two brains generating separate, measurable waves -- one in her head and a second in her womb. Instead, the second brain belongs to a different person, the baby.
No woman has two different sets of sexual organs. Instead, one set belongs to her and the second belongs to her baby boy in her womb. Every cell in his body (and not one cell in his mother's) has an XY chromosome.
It should be obvious, then, that abortion is carried out primarily on a baby's body, which is killed.

On Fallacy #3 (that at least some abortions are justifiable):
By now, it should be clear that abortion is nothing less than murder, which can never be justified. However, some will argue that such an extreme measure can be tolerated when a baby is conceived through rape. ("Think of the trauma to the mother, being forced to go through nine months of pregnancy. Then imagine how she will look at the newborn baby with hatred, reliving the painful experience of rape, seeing the father's resemblance in the child, etc..) This can be very emotionally persuasive to a lot of people, both men and women. But it is fallacious in various ways:

-- Murder is an intrinsically evil act, and no human being can do evil so that an imagined good (e.g., "peace of mind") can come of it or so that pain can be avoided (e.g., the various foreseen consequences I just listed).
-- Killing a human being is justifiable only in self-defense, either (1) when that person is in the act of trying to do another grave bodily harm or (2) after that person has carried out a "capital crime" (to defend society from further harm). In abortion after rape, the baby is totally innocent and defenseless. She is not trying to harm anyone, and he has not carried out a capital crime. In society, we never punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. It is the rapist that must be captured and imprisoned. And notice that we do not execute rapists. How then can we execute the rapist's child for the crime of her father?
-- Many women who have given birth to babies conceived in rape have testified to the fact that, with good counselling, they were able to overcome the initial revulsion they felt about the pregnancy. They realized that, with God's help, they were bearing a good fruit (an innocent baby, loved by God who created her soul) from a bad deed. (God always foils satan in this way.) They realized that they could either raise the child or give her up for adoption -- virtuous alternatives to killing her. With time, they were able to forgive the criminal rapist. Research shows that women in this situation turn out to be more mentally and spiritually healthy by giving birth than by having an abortion, because the second option adds a second trauma (murder of one's own child) to the first trauma (rape). [Please take a glance at this.]
Please, Michael R., introduce Megan to this article, , which tells about a beautiful young woman, Julie Makimaa (who was conceived in rape) and her mother, Lee Ezell -- and delves into the subject we have been discussing. Here are more links to articles on the subject, the last one with testimony in Spanish from five women: Link #1, Link #2, Link #3.

Michael R., may God bless you and aid you in your special mission.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 12, 2002.

Micheal - The paternal drive in you is very strong indeed showing a fine man. Society has veiled the reality of life especially in the area of abortion.

Aside from the death of a fetus my concern would be the long term effect on the mother. Studies have shown along with common sense the negative emotional scars of one having an abortion. Often we hear of a woman who utters " What if? "

If nothing else perhaps the child will be allowed birth and you assume responsibilty as the father. A most difficult task current and future for you both.

Peace And Well Being.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 12, 2002.

Michael

I want to say to you this. My wife and I, read your article and want to tell you that you showed us a faith that is very rare today. Your faith is very impressive and if any woman ever wins your true heart will be a very fortunate person. my wife is behind you 100% and says if Megan can only opens her eyes and realize the gift you have towards life will realize the pot of gold that is inside you will also be her reward. Don't ever give up and remain true. I was once your age and to be truthful I wish I had you courage then. It is absolutely fantastic to hear this now. May GOD always bless you fully and I will Pray for you and Megan too. BLESSINGS.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 12, 2002.

Michael,

Seems almost like you could just print John's response and give it to the young lady. My prayers are with you and Megan.

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), May 12, 2002.

You may use http://www.prolifeinfo.org as an excellent source of information.

I received this in an e-mail, so I hope people don't mind if I paste it here:

Subject: Georgia Girl Killed Because Boyfriend Wanted Abortion Source: Associated Press; April 23, 2002

Georgia Girl Killed Because Boyfriend Wanted Abortion

Athens, GA -- A 16-year-old girl in Athens, Ga., was beaten and stabbed to death because her ex-boyfriend believed she was pregnant and didn't want her to have the baby, police said.

An autopsy on Tuesday at the Georgia crime lab revealed that Stephanie Nicole Burnett was not pregnant, Richmond County sheriff's Maj. Ken Autry said.

Burnett told Matthew John Wiedeman, also 16, that she was pregnant and wanted to keep the baby and marry him, but Wiedeman wanted her to have an abortion, Autry said witnesses told police.

Wiedeman and his 17-year-old friend, Raymond Anthony Soto, were charged Monday with luring Burnett out of her house Sunday night and killing her.

Burnett's brother found her body around 7 a.m. Monday in a parking lot next to their south Augusta house, police said. She had been beaten with a solid-steel dumbbell and stabbed repeatedly.

"I think it's one of the most gruesome ones I've ever seen," Deputy Coroner Grover Tuten said.

Wiedeman, a high school dropout who lived with his father, was being held Tuesday at the Augusta Regional Youth Detention Center on murder charges. Police said they plan to try him as an adult.

Soto, another dropout who temporarily lived with Wiedeman, was in Richmond County jail without bond, charged with murder and possession of a knife during the commission of a crime.

Autopsy results were expected Tuesday afternoon, Autry said. If investigators confirm Burnett was pregnant, Wiedeman and Soto could face additional charges, Autry said.

Autry said the killing took place Sunday between 10 p.m. and midnight. He said Soto knocked on Burnett's window and talked her into sneaking outside to talk with Wiedeman.

She followed Soto to the parking lot, where Wiedeman attacked her from behind with the barbell, Autry said. Police said they believe Soto used a long-bladed knife during the attack.

Police said the murder weapons were found Monday beneath a nearby storm drain.

Counselors were brought in Monday and Tuesday to Butler High School, where Burnett was a student, Richmond County schools spokesman Justin Martin said.

Burnett's family members said she loved animals and crafts, played soccer and wanted to be a real estate agent. Her sudden death came as a shock, they said.

"It's not something we ever planned on, especially for a 16-year- old," her older sister Rebecca Burnett said. "We're thinking more along the lines of buying her a car, not a casket."

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), May 12, 2002.

I thank you very kindly, Jeffrey. There's only one thing wrong with printing it, though. You lose the hyperlinks at the end! I would dearly love for Megan to be able to visit at least one or two of those sites. By the way, the URLs are as follows:
http://nichole.simonweb.com/~afterabortion/News/Victims.html
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/01-17-2000/vo16no02_unwanted.ht m
http://www.californiaprolife.org/abortion/lee&julie.html
http://www.leeezell.com/aboutlee.htm
http://www.aciprensa.com/testim.htm

Now Michael could copy-and-paste this page into e-mail, edit out the extraneous stuff, and still get Megan to the sites I recommended, even without the links.
[With Netscape, it's easy to obtain the URL for a link without even going to the linked page. You just have to "right-click," then click on "Copy Link Location," and then "paste" the copied URL. Maybe there's something similar for other browsers.]

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 12, 2002.

We posted almost simultaneously, Jeffrey.
It was sad to read that tragic story. JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 12, 2002.

John

I told you in the past of seeing Caroline Kennedy on the Larry King Live show and the fact she would not talk of her kids and their religious upbringing.

Last night i recieved this E-Mail form a Barbara Woods. I tried to respond to her, but, she gave me a ficticious Email address. Is this woman a familiar person to you? Not personally mind you. She was being a tad curt with me for mentioning this on forum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Mr. Bishop I happened to get in to your forum by accident this evening and found that you were discussing Caroline Kennedy and the faith of her children. I just thought that you should know that in prior articles on Ms. Kennedy-Schlossberg, I have noted that she is raising her children in the Catholic faith. Maybe she just did not feel that it was necessary to discuss her family and faith with Mr. King on national network. Although I might be mistaken, I believe what I have written is true. B.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 12, 2002.

Dear Michael, Perhaps you can ask Megan if she would like to go to a priest with you to talk about abortion. My pastor counsels women who had abortions and are now living with the guilt (some, many years later). Has Megan ever seen a film on abortion? That may change her views.

To some people, abortion is just a word and they really have no idea what takes place. The visual effects of seeing it on film can have a very powerful affect. When I was involved with a youth group, we had a film on abortion, followed by a discussion. In this film, there were doctors who used to perform abortions and then found the Lord and now are pro-life and work very hard on pro-life issues, work with women to help them find other avenues instead of abortions.

Many women don't feel the guilt of abortion until they get married and have children - then, they look back and the reality of thier sin hits them like a ton of bricks - it is a scar that never completely goes away.

You and Megan will be in my prayers, Michael and I pray that she has a change of heart - you love her so much, but this is a very serious issue and you are so wise not to go ahead and marry someone who thinks so differently than you do on this issue.

Prayer changes thinks, Michael and we will all pray that God touches Megan's soul and she has a change of heart! God Bless..

That is why pre-cana is such a good program in the Catholic church. Many issues come up 'before' the marriage that may never have been touched upon before. It gives the couple a chance to discuss important issues. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc326@juno.com), May 12, 2002.

Thank you all for such great postings regarding my situation. I find it sometimes difficult to not be long-winded in my writing, but will attempt to keep things as brief as they need to be.

John, I truly appreciate not only your quick and lengthy response, but also the very kind words you chose to begin with. It cannot explain to you how great it makes me feel to hear from you and others what I already know in my heart to be true. It’s as if a huge energy cell has somehow been activated and given me new strength to carry on in my battle against evil.

You have presented to me things that I had not up to this point been exposed to. Each of your examples that invalidate abortion as being our choice are none other than absolutely right on. I will undoubtedly take what you have given me and run with it, expanding on those truths in ways that I know Megan will best understand.

In my haste to convey to you my thanks, I have not yet read the articles you have referenced in your response. I will read them immediately following this post and respond to them. I also must then decide the proper way to post the horrific letter that one of Megan’s close relatives wrote her back in regards to my email to Megan.

--

Jean, Your kind words, calling me a “fine man” are very much appreciated. It is precisely when we doubt ourselves as making the correct decisions in pursuing what we feel is right in our hearts that we need the most reassurance from our fellow true believers.

It is not that I am worried a situation should arise that Megan would actually become pregnant by any means and contemplate what to do, but rather that her unGodly belief that abortion is acceptable will slowly begin to lead her down other evil paths.

If it were now or in the future to ever be the case that she would become pregnant and consider abortion, as you mentioned, you better believe that no matter who the father be, I would be ferociously fighting for that baby’s right to life.

--

Fred, I must admit that I cried when I read what you and your wife had to say. I am not the best Catholic that I know I could be, but do try very hard to never let myself fall in times of weakness.

I have found this forum to be a great inspiration to the Catholic faith that my parents taught me, and still teach me. I do find it dreadful that there are so many young people in our society who are not only left to fend for themselves when it comes to learning about God, but that those who have already been taught are rejecting God in such astounding numbers. It is not that they openly decree disagreement with their teachings, rather that they do not stand up and be counted among those who everyday fight so hard for what is good and just in the eyes of God. It is not laziness which will gain them passage to heaven, but will instead aid in their deliverance to Lucifer himself.

--

Jeffrey, If Megan were somehow more open minded and accepting of the truth that exists, I would have no problem printing and delivering to her everything that I have written here, as well as the many wonderful responses. It is however the case that Megan is terribly troubled with a very stubborn attitude towards things that she has “already learned.” I choose very specifically the word stubborn, because it best reflects her inability to reason through this in the eyes of God. In this example, stubborn is exactly the opposite of persistent. It is rather ironic that I know myself to be very persistent, striving to eradicate any stubbornness about me, and yet I find Megan to be in this situation, exactly the opposite.

The story of the 16 year old girl in Georgia who was murdered makes me want to scream out loud harsh words and berate the society that we live in today. How can it be that we tolerate those among us who are most emphatically evil to live in the same neighborhoods, breath the same air, walk upon the same soil that God has given to his true followers? All of this, even without punishment? I do not speak only of the two boys that killed the girl, but he PARENTS of the boys, as well as every member of society that the boys have ever come into contact with, who have never corrected them when they stepped out of line.

We live in a society today of instant gratification, no matter what the cost. If it’s a luxurious, fast car you want to impress others with, you can sign up for payments at your nearest car dealer. A trashy jerry springer-type television show, just turn on your new satellite receiver and you’ll have hundreds of channels to choose from in whatever language you care to hear the evil deeds. What about an informative “newscast,” providing you with the latest lies in support of bashing the local religious group of your choice? Hey, it’s all right there under your fingertips on the remote control. You say that you’re lonely and need a companion to shack up with for awhile; well that’s no problem either! Someone to carry out the evil deed of your choice for a price; I am sure that there is somewhere on the internet that you can find assistance.

Need I go on in describing the absolutely disgusting world we live in? I suppose that even given all this, there exist those who choose not to participate in such evil acts as murdering a 16 year old girl, not out of fear that they be caught by the authorities here on earth, but instead know that it is as John wrote, “intrinsically evil” to murder someone.

I apologize for going off topic a bit, but as I said before, I get carried away sometimes and must continue to write in order to get things “off my chest.”

Thanks again Jeffrey for your response!

--

MaryLu, I would love to take Megan to a priest, allowing all of us to speak together about the evils of abortion. There is however one huge obstacle. I must say that it would at this point be too much for Megan to handle and there would undoubtedly be much more anger and rebellion from Megan than anything positive. I must work on Megan and first get her to stop listening to those specific family members around her who seem to be working only for satan’s purposes. I will post later with proof of this. Only after I know for certain that Megan is thinking on her own, could I even interject the idea of us personally consulting a priest.

That leads me to another question that I must ask immediately, before my mind gets cranking away on something else. If Megan would like to think of herself as belonging to the Methodist Church, what is their stance on the idea of abortion? Maybe I can be more persuasive by using the logic of what is supposed to be her own Christian beliefs. I would consider that to at least be making head waves toward the other huge idea in my head that might just have something to do with her eventually becoming Catholic. Then again, I better just take things one small step at a time!

In regards to Megan actually having watched an abortion on TV, I would have to say with near 100% certainty that she has not. I am at this point so terribly scared of losing her to this issue, that I think asking her to watch such a heinous act would drive her away from me personally, rather than get her to open up. She would more than likely view it a personal attack on her. To you and I, this seems to be faulty logic on her part, but if her logic were correct, we wouldn’t be in this predicament.

I know that for the sake of her eternal soul, many seemingly (to her) forceful acts, like getting counseling, watching an abortion, etc. may be justified to get her to “come around,” but I must use kid gloves at this point in the situation. Again, just as soon as I decide the proper way, I will post the proof of me needing to be more careful. It comes in the form of a disgusting email from one of her relatives concerning my letter to Megan. I may just decide to copy and paste it, but must first think about privacy issues.

--

Thank you all again for your great wisdom and helpfulness in my struggle to retain the soul of someone that I love very much. I keep a busy work schedule, but will do my best to respond to all of your posts. I better get busy reading those articles John worked so hard to supply me with, as well as going forward, expanding on all of your great ideas to help this situation.

May God bless you all!

-- michael (mikereithmeier@hotmail.com), May 13, 2002.

Michael

Father Benedict Groeshel, a widely renown Catholic monk and apologist speaker who now appears on EWTN, spoke at one of his seminars back around 1990 had to say this about the Methodists: (no exactly his words but darn close), The Methodists cannot make up their minds about abortions and even the devinity of Christ. They all argue about what they believe in. So what you are dealing with is a religion that has factions within itself and constantly shifts it theologies at will to suit the people, not GOD.

It is pretty much true with the rest of the protestants. Bickering is pretty much the norm. You will find one parish among them to believe in life at conception and another to believe in life after birth. We as Catholics are very fortunate in that we have a central theology and honor GOD fully in our worship. Methodists included.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 13, 2002.

Fred, you are so right! That's one of the reasons I have been so drawn to the Catholic Church; it's unwavering fidelity to the truths of the historic Christian faith. Every Protestant church has it's own set of doctrines! You can't go by labels.

Michael, you better find out what your girlfriend believes about Jesus: Is He God? Was he born of the Virgin? Did He rise from the dead?

Use the apostles' creed and see what she believes. She may be believing in a Jesus that doesn't exist, which would mean she is not a "Christian" I know that sounds tough, but in this day and age, you really have to get specific!

I have some relatives who are Methodist and they don't even believe in the Virgin Birth!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 13, 2002.

Fred,

Thanks again for another great answer and reference.

Coincidentally, my father told me just the other day that "we already know that we have the right belief, the only thing we must do is to stick with it. We Catholics have been around since Jesus Christ himself founded this Church over 2,000 years ago, and we have seen countless numbers of other religions and other so called true- believers come and go. Just as they couldn't shake our beliefs then, they won't shake our beliefs now. Stick with it and make the right decisions that you already know."

Pretty amazing stuff if you ask me.

--

Gail,

You are absolutely right when you say that I need to get specific with Megan. I have been thinking about things nonstop the past couple weeks (literally not sleeping) and must say that this is indeed a small cross to bear. Having to deal with this, at least I know exactly my situation, rather than be duped into something that does not exist, costing me more in the end.

Thanks for the advice on the Apostles’ Creed, I will definitely give that a shot.

-- Michael (mikereithmeier@hotmail.com), May 13, 2002.

Jmj

Hello again, Michael R. Thanks for your very kind words of response. I would like to offer you a few more thoughts today.

You told us that Megan considers herself a Methodist. Well, as is true of every Protestant "tradition," there is no longer just one kind of Methodist, but various splinter denominations. So that I can answer you, though, I will assume that she belongs to the biggest one, the "United Methodist Church" [UMC]. Here, then, is the official (and amazing) statement of the UMC on abortion, with comments of mine inserted in brackets. I have no idea if any Methodist can be penalized for rejecting this, though I doubt it:

"The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. [WHAT??? "Unacceptable?"] In continuity with past Christian teaching [NONSENSE!], we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection. We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. [INFANTICIDE APPROVED!] We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may warrant abortion. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth. Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel." [From "The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church -- 2000" (displayed at www.umc.org)]

Now, Michael, if it happens that Megan has a deep respect for the Bible, perhaps it will help you to show her the following passages:

[The unborn is lovingly formed by God himself, who has a plan for the baby's life. No one may interfere with God's plan?:]
Ps. 139:13-17 For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought ... Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. How precious to me are thy thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!

[Probably within a week or two of the conception of Jesus, Our Lady visited her relative. Though Jesus was an embryo, he was a Person who had a dramatic effect on his two cousins (mother and son). How then can anyone kill an embryonic or fetal person?:]
Luke 1:35-41 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. ... And the angel departed from her. In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40: and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

[Further contradicting Megan's fallacy #2 (that abortion has to do merely with a woman's body, over which she has possession and control) is a passage that women do not even possess their own bodies, much less the bodies of their babies:]
1 Cor 6:19: Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

God bless you, Michael R.. Give this difficulty to God TODAY, and get yourself some good sleep. You will need it.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 13, 2002.

Michael,

Your plight brings tears to my eyes. Tears of sadness, and of Joy. You have all the right tools to do the job.

At first I was going to write to about how to show that abortion is murder and evil. But Megan already knows that. Unfortunately for her however, she has been sucked into the culture of death. Where human "rights" take presidents over human lives, and the unborn child is the enemy! Let me tell you: Women have much a right to the life of their unborn child as they do the life of their born child. I've heard the term "forced" birth used to defend abortion (because a woman shouldn't be forced to give birth for instance in a rape). Well, let us consider a parent whose child is unruly or hard to handle. Should we then consider this "forced" parenthood, and have the right to "eradicate" these little "monsters"?

Sorry - I got off on a tangent. My point was that Megan already knows this. But she has been brought up not knowing the difference between death and life, right and wrong (not on all issues), sadness and True happiness.

My suggestion to you would be to drop the issue of abortion (just for now), as I have a feeling it is a facade for deeper hurts (was someone in her family raped?). And as she is "stubborn" the more you drill her, the more she will back away (I should know - my fiancé is just the same). Try first to be a witness to her of Christ’s Love for ALL. Christ Died for thugs, thiefs, murderers, and yes rapists! His love was unbiased and unprejudiced, so that he may give life to ALL. We must be witnesses to this love - and soon others will see that their love for life (at all levels regardless of situation) must be a reflection of this Immense Love of Christ. I think that your first milestone should be to get her as close to the Catholic faith as you can. It is hard to see Truth (about abortion) if you are not wrapped head to toe in Truth. And this wrapping of Truth is only found in one Church, the Catholic Church.

I'm not saying bring her to mass, or to a priest, that might be too much for her. Try to bring close Catholic friends over for dinner, or for prayer. Maybe start a small prayer group, so that she can see your love for Christ and love for life. "They will know we are Christians by our love". Once Megan begins to be aware of Gods great love, and our Mother Mary's non stop intercession, Megan will not be able to even utter the horrific word "abortion".

I would like to say a prayer: Mary Mother of God, point our dear sister Megan to your Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ. At the wedding feast in Cana we came to you and you told us, "Do what ever He tells you!". Pray that your Son tells Megan all about the glory and greatness of Life. I place this intention into your Immaculate heart, that your Son, Jesus Christ may take it up to our Father pure and whole, and He may respond with swiftness and graciousness for the sake of Michael and Megan. St. Michael, the ArchAngel, defend Megan and Michael in battle, be their protection against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, oh Prince of the Heavenly hosts, by the Power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits, who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

P.S. Michael, I know this may take some time! And I know that you are probably eager to get married. I have been with my girlfriend for 5 years (and men are we ready to get married). But let me just say, that the time and effort you put in to please God and set straight what needs to be set straight prior to entering into the holy sacrament of matrimony will pale in comparison to the great gifts God will bestow upon you and Megan.

May the Peace of Christ put your heart at rest. Do not fret or worry, for God is in control of that which is out of our control (and in our control as well). Do not stress over Megan’s conversion, because stressing won't make God speed up. But prayer may just do that. Every time you feel the need to stress or worry for Megan, pray instead. The Rosary is a Powerful weapon against the threat of Satan. And it is a fact that the Rosary (not the beads, but the prayer) has the Power to move mountains (literally).

You are a gift from God, and Megan will come to know that.

In Christ.

Jake

-- Jake Huether (Jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 14, 2002.