I watched, last night, the most moving video of my life. My mother had a tape that was spliced together. It included the miracles of Our Mother crying blood through statues, apparitions of our Mother in different areas, and more. The most touching, however, was the apparition of our Mother at Galabandal, Spain. I think it is so important to listen to the message that she begged those four girls to spread. I don't want to mess up the message by writing it in my own words. Please visit this web site, and take to heart her messages.

http://web.frontier.net/Apparitions/garabandal.html

Let me know what you think. Thank you.

Blessed Mother, Speak to all those who visit this site. Amen.

In Christ.

Jake

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 16, 2002

Answers

Hi Jake. I hope you don't hate me for saying this, but remember that the local bishop is the one with the authority to make a determination on the validity of an apparition, and the Bishop at Garabandal in 1965 condemned it as well as 5 more bishops who succeeded him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all an enemy of approved apparitions and your mother's video is probably all you say it is, but please use lots of caution.

It seems to me their are several types of assaults the enemy is using on the church right now... that's where the St. Michael prayer came from; Pope Leo XIII had a vision of a looming crises in the Church which is what I feel we may be dealing with. One type is the New Age influence in the Church... the wiccan, mother earth tree hugging type. Then there's the sedevacantist movements that seek to draw us away in a very peculiar manner which makes people think they are Catholic enough, Holy enough and Godly enough to reject the authority of the current Pope. Then there's the regular old secular, atheistic and humanistic one we are all pretty familiar with.

Then there's this fairly recent explosion of apparitions, locutions, visions, etc... I mean, it is really, really a growth industry. I say industry because a false apparition can bring its promotors a tremendous income with a very, very low overhead. People flock to these sites for a variety of reasons, and probably a lot to do with messages of impending doom. People love that kind of stuff; it provides them with an escape from the problems that everyday life plagues them with... gives them a sense of being part of a 'remnant' or a sense of the elite, like a Navy Seal God Squad. They look for circuitous routes around condemnation from the magisterium based on technicalities.

Some are easy to spot, like Bayside, where our supposed 'Lady' regularly uses poor grammar and bad sentence and logic structure in 'her' messages to the point of being laughable. Others apparitions may have a good overall feel of authenticity to them, but sneak in a couple doctrinal problems that go unnoticed except for the watchfulness of the magisterium.

Most all apparitions, both authentic and false, have that impending doom aspect to them. I myself am very interested in eschatological matters, but it is something approached with extreme care and never at the expense of daily duties. We all have our own personal end times to deal with as we approach the time when our souls meet our maker, and we have already been equipped with an arsenal of spiritual weapons for over 2000 years to win that personal spritual battle.

I'm just saying, be watchful.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 16, 2002.

Emerald,

Thanks for the advice. I agree, there are many fakes out there that try to ruin good things. This is why the Church always acts with prudence. So, to that I agree. However, to the condemnation of these apparitions, I have to disagree. Please visit the following sites which explain better the Churches position.

http://www.garabandal.org/church.shtml

http://www.garabandal.com/church/church.htm

Although the Church has not made these apparitions official, they certainly have not condemned them. The messages Mary sent, are in no way contrary to the Catholic Faith. And, as it took the Church 13 years to rule on the Apparitions at Fatima, it may take just that much time for the ruling at Garabandal. At this time - if the messages are authentic, to wait for the Church's ruling may be to late. In situations like this "...it belongs to the laity, without waiting passively for orders and directives, to take the initiative freely and to infuse a Christian spirit into the mentality, customs, laws and structures of the community in which they live." (Pope Paul VI,Octogesima Adveniens, 1971, #48). What our Blessed Mother is asking is for us to pray more. To pray the rosary, to focus on her Sons Passion. These are things, that as Catholics, we should be doing anyway. The actual visions (like the "Warning", "miracle", and "Chastisement") are under investigation. But one cannot deny the urgent necessity to pray.

Also - Just reading the details of the events surrounding the apparition, and seeing it on tape are 2 different things. I think the visual impact of the 4 girls walking backwards, receiving the Host, praying, etc. was so much greater. I know we must wait for the Church to rule on these apparitions, but in light of the recent events in our Church and in our world, I believe them more and more! Of course when the Church makes its final decision, I will be submissive no matter what.

Thanks again for your concern.

In Christ.

-- jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 16, 2002.

Jake,

Do you know anything about the warning? I would like to know more about it, where can I get information on it?

Thank you. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 16, 2002.

Jake,

I fully agree with you. The present need of the Church is conversion of souls. I think Our Lady is right when She says that there are many Catholic Priest and Bishop who are misleading the flock. Very true !!! There are so many cases where I have seen that the Priest and the Bishop have gone against the doctorine of the Catholic Church. For example I was told that in India there was a Priest who started his own Church and instead of using the normal traditional white cloth on the alter he was using an orange cloth(symbol of Hinduism) and more over he placed the hindu Gods and Goddess below the statues of Our Lady and Jesus and said that mary is the reincarnation of this Hindu Goddess. Very suprising and very shocking. There are priest who read the Koran during the Eucharistic celebration to convey that we are called to live in harmony. So idiotic.

Some times I wonder if whether we are witnessing the comming of antichrist.

God Bless Xavier

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 17, 2002.

Xavier... Antichrist? I think we are, sure.

Jake: Not done with you yet on this subject, but need time to think and get back to you, on Garabandal.

Soon

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 17, 2002.

MaryLu,

Just wanted to say - Your posts are always so beautiful!

Here are a few websites on Garabandal. I've also included the main events that are prophesid to come.

http://www.garabandal.org http://www.garabandalny.com/ http://www.garabandal.org.za/ http://web.frontier.net/Apparitions/garabandal.html

A WORLD-WIDE WARNING This Warning from God will be seen and then felt interiorly by everyone on earth. At that moment we will see the wrong we've done and the good we failed to do. The Warning will be sent to correct the conscience of the world and prepare it for the great Miracle.

[Note - this is supposed to happen within the lifetime of one of the visionaries. So, if we don't die of unnatural causes, we should live to see this happen]

2A GREAT MIRACLE The Miracle will take place at the grove of pine trees on a bluff overlooking the village of Garabandal. It will occur on a Thursday evening at 8:30 on or between the eighth and the sixteenth of March, April or May. (Visionary Conchita (Gonzalez)Keena knows the date and will announce it eight days in advance.) It will be on the feastday of a martyr of the Eucharist and coincide with and event in the Church. All those either in the village or on the surrounding mountains will see it. The sick who are present will be cured, sinners converted and the incredulous will will believe. As a result of the Miracle, Russia will be converted. 3PERMANENT SIGN After the Miracle, a permanent visible supernatural "sign" will remain at the pines until the end of time. 4THE CHASTISEMENT If the world still does not change after the Miracle, then God will send the Chastisement.

We should not look forward to these events, as they should be not a sign for us to believe but to understand.

Even if you don't believe that these apparitions occured, the message is that we should all increase our prayer, and live more holy lives. This should be done regardless anyway!

Thanks again for your posts.

In Christ

-- jake huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 17, 2002.

Gentlemen

The things you are seeing in India is an example of the "New Age' ideals that have crept into our Church and her Traditions. It must be identified and stopped. If we don't then we will be taken over by these heretics. It is all over the place and is most often very hard to identify as they use veils of all kinds to hide themselves.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 17, 2002.

Another thing:

The use of prayers during the Eucharistic Celebration will actually invalidate the whole process. He, the priest has committed a grave sin and is misleading his parishioners. AND is in danger of Schism.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 17, 2002.

ok Jake, this is what I was wondering if you would take a look at for what it is worth:

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Garabandal2.html

This page has a hysterical feel to it, and I don't know much about the author but have browsed through his stuff for the last couple evenings and it does seem he has some interesting stuff laid out.

In all this Jake I understand that sifting through reports and counterreports and etc. etc. etc. turns into a maze of confusion after a while, so don't feel attacked if we come to a different conclusion... not my intention at all.

Let me know whether this site above is a witch hunt or a real expose. I wouldn't know one way or the other until I had a chance to read some more material on both sides. Right now I have to work.

Soon

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 17, 2002.

I agree, there are probably many sites that either seak to promote or refute these charges. But I saw the video of the girls, and so did my confessor (a close Priest friend). And the arguments on the web site you gave me are very contradictory to what I saw with my own eyse. I will go through a few passages to show you what I mean. I too don't want to get into a debate about the authenticity of the apparition, but I feel convicted to defend Our Lady. Like I said, the occurances are under debate, but the message (of continual prayer) is worth listening to - even if this is fake.

"Throughout the four years of the apparitions all the powers of Satan were used. The girls were taken into the air many times. One time one of the children was lifted over the top of a building."

This was never mentioned in the movie - or claimed in the sites that promote the insident.

"They were made to do ungodly movements of the body: taken swiftly above the ground, down the rocky hill hundreds of feet to meet "The Lady?". In every case the children were FORCED to their knees in a quick undignified manor. Many times they were forced with their heads backwards in a position that could not be done naturally."

It cannot be proven that they were FORCED to their knees. Farthermore, eye witnesses in the video claimed that even thought the girls would fall down or kneel or whatever, never did their clothes ever fold or move indecently.

"Several times the girls were found SCREAMING. There were many "SIGNS IN THE SKY" seen by many people: moving stars, hosts, images, etc. In one case a fire was seen and the "Virgin" claimed that she had come in this FIRE."

Only another priest and Padre Pio, besides for the girls, were allowed to see the Chastisment. This is clearly a lie because it says that many people saw signs. No one on the promotional sites, nor on the video, claimed to have seen this. The video interviewd Conchita's brother - who I'm sure would have said something if he had seen this.

"In one very celebrated case the "angel" gave communion to Conchita and the host could be visibly seen by everyone. She was told to hold out her tongue until the "Virgin" came. She stayed with her tongue outstretched and the host on it for a long time. Many photographs were taken."

This is also a lie, though many people tryed to take photographes, only one amature videographer caught the Host on film.

"In almost all the apparitions the girls entered into dialogues with the "Lady" about all kinds of NON-SENSE things, like how the Lady liked their clothes. The children were given the "Child Jesus" to pass around to each other like a TOY. Never once in the thousands of true apparitions we have studied did Christ or Mary ever say a SINGLE WORD that did not have a salvation meaning for the soul."

In all the interviews on the video no where do the girls talk about "passing the baby Jesus around". And if they did, I'm sure it cannot be proven that it was "like a TOY". Even though these people have studeid "thousands of true apparitions", I hardly believe that they know exacly what Our Lady was saying to the visionaries, other than what the visionaries say (which would obviously be the salvation meaning). And I believe our Mother knows how to talk to little girls (about their clothes or whatever) to make them feel at Home!

"The "Virgin" asked that the girls not bring blessed sacramentals [rosaries, crucifixes, etc.], for she wanted to bless them herself. And over the years she is reported to have blessed and kisses hundreds of them. Remember that only blessed sacramentals affect Satan. Keep in mind, that Mary is not a priest. She cannot give a priestly blessing. Never in Her life or in any apparition for two thousand years has Mary given a priestly blessing to anything."

Now I'm really starting to think that these people just don't like Our Mother!! This makes me mad!. Mary, because she is a woman, can never be a priest; this is true. No where did Mary or the visionaries or anyone say that she was giving a "priestly blessing". For crying out loud - if Satan runs from a sacramental blessed by a priest, how faster would he run if it was kissed by our Mother!!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are three prophesies in Garabandal: first a world-wide WARNING that everyone will see and feel; second, a MIRACLE at Garabandal that all will see and will remain there forever; and last, the PUNISHMENT. Twenty-five years later, nothing has happened."

It doesn't say that "all will see" the Miracle. It says that those at the mountains and within the valley of Galabandal would see it. Before these people make any critical remarks, they should actually read about what happend first.

"Conchita said that his body will be found uncorrupt after the "Great Miracle". His body has since been exposed but he is not uncorrupt."

Well, maybe it isn't uncorrupt yet because the Miracle has not occured yet. Hmmmmmmmm.

The site continues to try to debunk what the girls say, etc. It hasn't been deemed authentic by the Church, so I guess they have the right to their opinion. To me, it is clearly seen in the statements on this site that there are exterior motives (like to invalidate our Virgin Mother). Note how they put quotes around Virgin, like it is a claim and not a truth. But, regardless of the events, I believe that the message is a good one. We will know its authentisity by its fruits - and if it is cause to pray more, than I would say that the fruit is good.

Thanks again Emerald for your concern. Don't worry, I'm not basing my faith on this apparition. And even if the events claimed to be coming never pass, I will continue to pray (That way if it was from Satan - his plan, for me at least, will backfire!)

Pray for me.

In Christ

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 17, 2002.

Jake - I am giggling here as not so long ago in Montreal there was said to be statue of Mary that wept. Of course many came and " donated " monies to the owner of the house.

Upon analysis of the statue it was found a tube leading into the back area of the head was filled with lard which of course become liquid with the heat. Hence the " miracle " was dubbed " Our Lady Of Lards. "

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 17, 2002.

Jake,

Thank you for your response to my question about The Warning. It is really strange, but this past year, my whole life is coming before me. It is almsot like the movie, A Christmas Carol where the 3 ghosts of the past, present and the future....although I have not been shown the future! Hope it is Heaven.

I can't help but wonder if these are the end times....and God is preparing us for when Jesus comes again. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 17, 2002.

Fred,

I see the word 'Schism.' so frequently on the forum. What does that word mean?

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 17, 2002.

No Problem MaryLu. One of the curious things about the apparition in Garabandal is that the visionaries say that Mary told them "the end of time is near [but that is not to be confused with the end of the world]".

What is your take on the difference between the end of time and the end of the world? Maybe that will explain why some prophesies said that the "great Chastisement" is far off, but this one says that it is near. Could it be that one of the Chastisements is a purification, and the last one is the end? I know we should not be hung up on these kinds of things (they should not effect our faith and our current habits of prayer in the least), but they are interesting to think about.

You are enjoyable to converse with MaryLu.

God bless you.

In Christ

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 17, 2002.

It basically means not being in communion with the Church. A church outside of the Church. Like what happened to the Eastern Churches during the Great Schism of 1054. A break off from the Church and the Vatican.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 17, 2002.

Thank you Fred and Jake, for your response. I understand now.

It is intersting to 'think' about, but we have no control over the end of time, so we just have to be prepared as best we could.

At mass yesterday, the priest told us to examine our conscience every night before going to sleep and ask ourselves, "Did I live today the way Jesus would want me to? Did I treat others the way Jesus would want me to? Did I say hello to that old grumpy co-worker that no one else likes? Things like that.

He went on to say that we know what the big sins are, and the obvious venial sins, but the important question to ask ourselves at the end of the day is this one: "Have I been loving in word, deed, and action?" Interesting, isn't it?

I wish I had all this knowledge when I was younger. The knowledge and wisdom were always available to me, I guess I just was not listening then. Our God is good, and keeps sending us new opportunities to start over, doesn't He? MaryLu :)

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 17, 2002.

Sure we are in the end times. Of course, anything since the time of Christ is condsidered the end times... but I'm talking about the end of ends. It could take some time to play out.

I hope nobody asks me why I think that; would take too much time and effort to lay it all out. But I will if I am forced into it.

I personally think "The Warning" is bogus, but that's just my take on it. Maybe its not. But besides Garabandal, the other so-called apparition to hit up on that theme is the Medjegorgiaieahakgakgaoiuflf (I'm sorry, I can't spell that), and I haven't really seen it cross referenced against anything mentioned in any other approved apparition, or in the Scriptures. I seems to be a proprietary product of Garabandal and Medjugo---- you know, that other place in Bosnia.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 17, 2002.

"The Warning" sounds like Millenarianism or its cousin: Which seems to generate worry not faith. Remember, we won't know the day or the hour so there is no reason to speculate. It could be tonight or in ten thousand years.

Millenarianism in history:

The fundamental idea of millenarianism, as understood by Christian writers, may be set forth as follows: At the end of time Christ will return in all His splendour to gather together the just, to annihilate hostile powers, and to found a glorious kingdom on earth for the enjoyment of the highest spiritual and material blessings; He Himself will reign as its king, and all the just, including the saints recalled to life, will participate in it.

The Montanistic movement (2nd century A.D.) had its origin in Asia Minor. The expectation of an early advent of the celestial Jerusalem upon earth, which, it was thought, would appear in Phrygia, was intimately joined in the minds of the Montanists with the idea of the millennium. Tertullian, the protagonist of Montanism, expounds the doctrine.

The Middle Ages were never tainted with millenarianism.

The Protestantism of the sixteenth century ushered in a new epoch of millenarian doctrines. Protestant fanatics of the earlier years, particularly the Anabaptists, believed in a new, golden age under the sceptre of Christ, after the overthrow of the papacy and secular empires.

Certain fantastical sects of England and North America, such as the Irvingites, Mormons, Adventists, adopted both apocalyptic and millenarian views, expecting the return of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom at an early date.

Some Catholic theologians of the nineteenth century championed a moderate, modified millenarianism, especially in connection with their explanations of the Apocalypse.

Catholic Encyclopedia

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 17, 2002.

Hey Mike.

Millenarianism is a particular error, not synonymous with a general notion of the end times or the end of ends.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 17, 2002.

Jake:

"To me, it is clearly seen in the statements on this site that there are exterior motives (like to invalidate our Virgin Mother)."

That can't be the case; go to the guy's front page at

http://www.unitypublishing.com/

...and you'll see that he is not out to invalidate her. I remember a long, long time ago my mother watching the Garabandal thing develop, but apparently she has long since dropped it and so have many others I know. Look into it some more. I really don't know the truth, but it has so much controversy surrounding it that it doesn't ring true like the other approved ones.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 17, 2002.

Emerald,

I said the "Warning" and those messages were the cousin of Millenarianism, not the same thing or not just yet anyway. These Marian apparitions and locutions are ongoing today. Many of them metamorphose into error. This one guy who visited Medjugorje, John Leary, came home and started having his own visions, which he publishes in ongoing volumes, of which the bishop of Rochester, New York condemned the first six volumes for Millenarianism.

So these endless "Mary" messages and "Warnings" and addictions to signs and wonders, if we get into them, all set us up for a fall.

A woman Marian visionary in Canada was followed for a long time until she got the notion that she was the Blessed Virgin Incarnate. Now her work is condemned by Rome and pilgrimages to her site are forbidden.

Chronic worry and wonders do not breed faith. That is how I see it.

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 18, 2002.

"I see the word 'Schism.' so frequently on the forum. What does that word mean?"

Mary Lu, do you have a Catechism, from which the following paragraph comes?

"2089. Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. 'Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.'"

CCC

-- CCC (C@C.C), May 19, 2002.

I have read everything that was posted here. Although many opinions were for and some against the "Virgin Mary" and her alleged visitations, one thing should not be forgotten. How can so many people, religious and non-religious alike, be seeing so many of the same things? Why do people waste so much time wondering if this really happened or not? It seems to me that if things were determind to be 500% real and accurate, then people would believe and change thier ways. But until some sacrifial proof or undistupted evidence is upon us, the people will continue in thier sinful ways. Why must we have the "proof" in order to change? Isn't the point of faith to just believe? Isn't the Bible proof of what has, is and will happen? It seems enough people have brought jokes about this matter to everyone's attention but no one does anything about it. God doesn't have to prove anything to us. We have to prove ourselves to Him. It seems to me that no one will prove anything to God unless He makes the first move towards convincing us. Isn't that a slap in the face. Christ dies for us and now we have come to a time where that's not enough for us to believe. We have faith that we will have a tomorrow and we have faith that we will have food to eat and a planet to live on but we don't have faith in the Creator of those things? I say we deserve whatever happens to us and if we choose to believe, then we are giving thanks and showing it to the One who was gracious enough to offer that chance. But if we turn a blind eye to the One who gave us all we have, the who are we to complain about what we lose in this life or the next one?

-- Jullienne McKenna (writrsblock6@cs.com), September 03, 2002.

What a wonderful thread, thanks for starting it Jake.

Bl. Jose Maria Escriva was told the first thing necessary for devotion to Mary is to realize She is alive.

Jullienne says: How can so many people, religious and non-religious alike, be seeing so many of the same things? And still not beleive? My thoughts exactly! In the U.S. alone there is: a tree in Salt Lake that resembles Our Lady of Guadalupe and it seeps a liquid substance; in CA there is a cross of light on a trailer door window; weeping pictures of Our Lady in NY and countless other thing happening today and there are those saying it is all a hoax. Remember the tree in Chicago last year that looked like our Lady? What about all the pictures from 9-11 that show a cross (have you seen the recent picture of the US Flag with a cross of light), or what about the unknown "trumpet player" at Ground Zero? They can not be explained, but just because people can't explain them does not mean it's not real. Perhaps it's His way of bringing us all together to pray. I mean think about it, every time something happens, like the image in the tree, thousands come to pray and light candles. How can that be wrong? I believe it is His plan.

Why do people waste so much time wondering if this really happened or not? I think they need to prove it to themselves in order to believe that it really happened. Just like the Big Bang & Evolution. They have proven this to themselves and therefor that's just the way things must have happened. Why on earth some people actually believe they are decedents of an ape is beyond me, but they will defend it until their dying day. We can only pray for Him to have mercy on their soul.

Do know about the last vision of Fatima? Sister Lucia saw Jesus hanging on the cross, above Him are God the Father & the Holy Spirit. There is blood dripping from His forehead and heart into a suspended host above a chalis. From His left hand is dripping a clear liquid (as if water) with the words Graces & Mercy. Our Lady's full image is below His right arm, Her Immaculate Heart is pierced with thorns. Below all this is an altar. It's a beautiful image. People are still trying to decifer the meaning of this, but the main thing to realize is HE IS ALIVE.

Has anyone heard about the alleged apparitions at St. Joseph's Church in Cold Spring, KY? I just read about it this morning and the pictures are pretty amazing. You can read some here: NETSCAPE

I'm currently re-reading the book "God's Final Effort" by John Haffert. It is awesome, some of the stuff in there really blows your mind. He packs so much info into this little book that it takes some time to absorb. That's why I'm re-reading:) Has anyone here read it? The proof is out there, but people just wont believe it. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it.

Do you know the scapular is the Principal devotion of covenant with Mary? The scapular was first given to the world in 1271. I was wondering, how many of you actually wear the scapular on a regular basis?

How many of you actually say the rosary daily? All 15 decades?

Peace be with you:)

-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), September 17, 2002.

There is a prophetic word from somewhere, I think from Garabandal, that states that the Whole Church will be reunited. Mentioning the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglicna churches. Now, with the recent heretical developments in the Anglican church is there any replacement for the Anglicans? YES, there is. It is the http://www.iccec.org The International Communion of the Charismatic Episcopal Church. The Archbishop himself is a strong man of grace, but all the bishops in that communion seem to be strong in grace and have no scandals.

I have a personal opinion that the Great Warning will occur AFTER the REUNIFICATION of the Church, and will be the result of that reunification. That is my opinion. I hope to prepare for the Great Warning.

Some Marian priests are in the ICCEC and a curator of the Vatican is a member of the ICCEC. Also, the one who headed a Pro-life civil disobidience group that caught the nations attention, is a priest in the CEC.

One member of the CEC (A cleric) went on 3 separate total fasts for 40 days each in the year 1983. He and a few men with him went together on another total fast for 40 days.

Because of this former head of the Anti-Abortion civil disobedience group leading Christians to block abortion clinics (Leading Protestants and Catholics to do so), and because of the impression that the Catholics gave some Protestants of their willingness to accept suffering as part of the Christian life, these Protestants started investigating this. ) These protestants were ready to become Catholic. Then on June 26, Two anglican archbishops, and one Archbishop from the "Old Catholic Church" which left the Roman church in 1870 because of the Roman Church proclaiming infallibility of the Pope for the first time as a dogma - anyway, these three Archbishops layed hands on Austin Randolph Adler to be the first archbishop of the Charismatic Episcopal Church. Those archbishops who anointed him for that office are to this day still not in the Charismatic Episcopal Church that I know of, but intentionally consecrated the Charismatic Episcopal church into existence. This church has had sudden and very powerful growth since 1992 when it was 3 parishes in total, to now, way over 1000 parishes. I think it has about 2000 parishes worldwide now.

I believe that the whole church will be reunited as one holy catholic and apostolic church joining together with Pope John Paul 2nd.

Vassula Ryden ( http://www.tlig.org http://www.vassula.org ) as well as John Leary http://www.JohnLeary.com have also stated that they had visions indicating that the GREAT WARNING will come and soon.

Vassula Ryden is a Greek Orthodox, and John Leary is a Roman Catholic in good standing with his bishop.

Also, Maria Esperanza, Carol Ameche, and the visionaries of Medjugorje, Fatima, Garabandal, and Betania are worth looking at.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

-- David Swanson (iccec@cox.net), March 04, 2003.

Jake.....So many times things have happened in which people bless God and in many ways do so with a hollow heart. Not once have I seen somene prove anything which again proves the evolution of faith. Just yesterday I was in a store and a small child was telling her mom about "the Angel" who told her that life would be better and she had nothing to worry about. I looked at the child and she had the face of someone who has seen beyond her years. She could not have been more then 5 or 6. Her mother turned to her and said "Angels only exist in your mind. Stop talking nonsense". I wanted to cry. This amazing child was trying to bond and share wit her mother something that I know deep in my heart she will never forget. Her mother had walked away for a moment to talk to a friend and I said hi to the girl and asked her if she remembered what the angel looked like.....She said no face could be seen...it was just a spirit of light. For a smal child to have the feelings that graced her face and the conviction to believe in what she felt, why cant us as adults have that same conviction? We preach this and that about things we really dont practice yet in the same sense we also pass judgement on those who differ from us. I have tried for many years to change the way society has conditioned me to think and views things that make the general populous uncomfortable. Yet do we ever try to feel what we put God through?...I know as for me, I am trying everyday to make a difference to someone as best I can without reservation or judgements....It is not my place and I wanted to thank you and everyone who posts something here for the opportunity to do so. - Jullienne

-- Jullienne McKenna (allbrat74@yahoo.com), March 13, 2003.

We are all given much to think about and pray about in the messages on this site. So many visionaries are around us, some valid some false,that we must continuosly call on the Holy Spirit to enlighten us and help us discern truth from error.

Let me ask you folks to join me in praying for our brothers and sisters who are lost in the deep darkness of the wisdom of the 'world'. So many people hate Jesus with any just cause, others ignore Him because He has no place in their world. I am dismayed at the number of Americans who were once Christians (Christ believers) and now who find no peace with Him or who have forgotten Him in their desire for 'worldly' values. I guess most of all I am bothered by the the lost souls who live only in dispair and have no faith; and believe that nothing, not even Jesus, gives them any hope in this life or the next.

Let me ask you to do a random act of love and pray for a lost soul.

Thanks to all for the helpful contributions you have made for the rest of us,

love

vince

-- vince (iulianosr@yahoo.com), September 28, 2003.

"Mary" said this at Bayside: JUNE 4, 1977 - O woe! It has been said of old that money is the root of all evil...

OCTOBER 6, 1979 - The greatest sadness in My heart is that I must make it known to you, that many will sell their souls to get to the head; for money is the root of all evil...

Money is NOT the root of evil, the LOVE OF IT IS:

'For the love of money is the root of all evil'. Timothy 6:10.

Yikes!! The "Bayside Blessed Mother" does not know THE BIBLE???

Would the REAL Blessed Mother misquote the Bible?

Satan can work miracles, cure people, fake "holiness" very easily. Satan can exort us to pray to "Mary". In short, what better a deception? "For even the elect will be deceived" The hollywood baloney about devils fearing cruxifixes and bibles and holy places is absurd.

All these demons have to do is speak 99% truth. The 1% will get us all thrown into hell, if we believe!

But my BIGGEST problem with all this is the now-famous "Jacinta 1972" photo, supposedly a "riddle" containing the date for the world's end.

The New Testament clearly states that NOT EVEN JESUS KNEW THE DATE!!!

Yet, "Mary" does know the date?

Anytime a spirit of a dead person appears and tells us something, it is FALSE and it is really a demon conversing. So, we're supposed to believe this is Jacinta?

(Jacinta was one of the three Fatima children)

All the (non church-approved) apparitions of Mary are REAL, they just ain't the real MARY!

'nuff said.

-- Boz (boz@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.

Well Boz,

Your are right, on a few points. And wrong on a few. Essentially, you are overgeneralizing.

On your assessment of the Bayside sideshow, you are right. The Church has condemned that supposed apparition, and the misquote of scripture you mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg. Many serious doctrinal problems have arisen from that disapproved but ongoing event.

"Satan can work miracles, cure people, fake "holiness" very easily."

A: Yes he can. But that obviously is not a reason to label every miracle and healing as satanic. The Apostles worked miracles and cured people regularly. So have many people throughout the centuries, including some in modern times who have manifested a special charism of healing. Therefore there would seem to be no reason to doubt that the Mother of God could exercise a similar charism. Of course we realize that it is the power of God, not the personal power of the minister, which is the direct source of such healing.

"Satan can exort us to pray to "Mary"

A: Well I guess he could if he wanted to. However, that would not seem to serve his purposes very well, since God has identified Mary as the one who would crush the head of Satan.

"The hollywood baloney about devils fearing cruxifixes and bibles and holy places is absurd"

A: Yes, Hollywood can make anything absurd. Yet their blatant misrepresentations are nevertheless based in fact. Satan is repelled by holiness, especially by the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. That's why frequent reception of the Eucharist is the most powerful shield against Satan that we have available to us. Of course that doesn't mean that Satan just rolls over and plays dead. He keeps trying, and may even return with other demons in an effort to overcome that which is holy. But the bottom line is ... demons are mere creatures, and the collective power of all the demons that exist is trivial against the infinite power of the Creator. The more closely we cling to Him, the more difficult it is for Satan or his cohorts to touch us.

"But my BIGGEST problem with all this is the now-famous "Jacinta 1972" photo, supposedly a "riddle" containing the date for the world's end."

A: That is one far-fetched theory among many, concerning the so-called "secret" of Fatima. The Church does not teach this. It is merely an opinion held by some. In fact, the Church does not officially teach that ANY supposed apparition is definitely true, or hold the faithful to believe anything that results from ANY reported apparition". The Church "approves" certain reported apparitions - which means they officially state that nothing about the supposed event is contrary to doctrinal truth, and that individual Catholics MAY therefore believe in it if the wish. Permission is granted, but belief is not required. In cases like Bayside, permission is DENIED, yet some Catholics place themselves above the authority of the bishop and participate anyway.

"Anytime a spirit of a dead person appears and tells us something, it is FALSE and it is really a demon conversing"

A: That is simply not a supportable statement. There are scriptures describing physically dead people rising from the grave and appearing to people who are still physically alive. And the blessings that have come through some approved apparitions are simply too profound and too holy to be ignored. Persons who have studied these events for the sole purpose of discrediting them have been convinced as a result of their studies.

"All the (non church-approved) apparitions of Mary are REAL, they just ain't the real MARY!"

A: In fact, most of the unapproved "apparitions" are undoubtedly FAKE. But the possibility of REAL apparitions must always be considered.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 10, 2003.

I believe that some Marian apparitions have never been properly investigated because of the huge percentage of modernist clergy in our hierarchy.While I do not necessarily believe totally in the condemned apparitions of Necedah or Bayside,I do believe both apparitions were never fully investigated and that the faithful have suffered by the possible impeding of graces. At Necedah in Wisconsin from 1949 to 1984 numerous miracles o9f the sun were seen and photographed authentically by people from all walks of life.Necedah was the FIRST apparition site to record the phenomena of the changing of the rosary links from silver to gold. Numerous cures including of cancer,heart problems,miraculous minor healings,spiritual and mental healings,addiction healings have occured there. In a few of these cases Doctors have added backup testimony to these healings. Other phenomena such as blue and other coloured mists,fragrances,supernatural noises, and experience of supernatural presences have all been felt and experienced by many pilgrims at this site. On Anniversary Days they usually have 5000 pilgrims or more present.It would be very presumptous and sinful to say this many people could be wrong in their belief.There was a holy praemonstratension priest from Portugal called Father Albin Martins who died a very holy death at this site after erecting a crucifix on a Good Friday during the 1960s. Another priest with numerous degrees in Mystical Theology Father Leo Scheetz believed in Necedah's authenticity.He wrote a book called Necedah-believe it?or Not? which has been published. Another priest,Father Hubert Duren,Schooled in Music wrote a song in honour of Our Lady of Necedah. A Carmelite Nun visiting Necedah had an apparition of the BVM that lasted a few hours in Necedah in 1975. A pilgrim called Tony Fisher took a miraculous photo with an incredibly radiantly beautiful virgin appearing in it. Our Ladys face in this photo is breathtakingly and heartbreakingly beautiful.I have never seen a more beautiful image of her. I know too that there are negative aspects to these apparitions but there are negative aspects attatched to the approved apparitions too( ie Saint Bernadette eating mud and grass at Lourdes,Francisco of Fatima saw Our Lady but did not hear her,Maximin the seer5 of La Salette died as an alcoholic,The Cure of Ars was dubious about La Salettes authenticity,There were contradictions from the Pontmain visionaries, There are dubious aspects to the Knock apparition,At Garabandal the girls could not literally touch Our Ladys body-she said she was there in another form-this is very disturbing,None of the 6 children who saw Our Lady at Beauraing and Banneux in Belgium in the 1930s entered religious life,Maria Esperanza Bianchini the approved seer of Betania is hugely wealthy and married,Some of the so called seers of Medjugorje live in mansions,drive luxury cars,are all married and travel the world like popstars and they all promote the Charismatic pentecostal heresies,Saint Catherine of Siena even believed Our Lady hereself denied her Immaculate Conception to her)I dont know for sure whether Our Lady appeared to Mary Ann Van Hoof at Necedah.Only Mary Ann,God,and the Virgin themselves know the truth.Even if an apparition is justly condemned the Church should never blacken anyones character publicly like they did with Mary Ann Van Hoof of Necedah and Veronica Leuken of Bayside.This is NOT right and NOT very christian or catholic!!!!Likewise at Bayside there were numerous miraculous healings,miracles of the sun,conversions,rosary changes,miraculous photos and other authentic external mystical phenomena.A priest from Fatima's official shrine became one of Baysides biggest supporters.Priests in India and Missionary priests and at least one Latino Bishop believe in these apparitions.I will say that I Wont condemn Bayside as false or true because I just dont know.I believe Necedah and Bayside need Vatican level investigation. In 1948 Therese Neumann during one of her ecstacies made the astonishing prediction that the Blessed Virgin would appear to a farmwoman in Wisconsin in 1949.Padre Pio told a pilgrim that Necedah was true,Father Dominic Of Marytown the great perpetual adoration promoter met Mary Ann,visited Necedah and saw the word MARY spelt in the sky,He developed cancer and died affirming his belief in the authenticity of the apparitions.Many clergy believe in these apparitions privately.A Mercy sister at one of the apparitions in 1950 had her clothed dried by the Miracle of the Sun,a sR. Mary Eusebia,if I remember.A Mystic priest called Father Roessler believed in these apparitions and said they were authentic.I believe there were sinister forces in the Church working for Modernist reasons against Necedah and Bayside.Our Lady spoke allegedly about freemasonry and its modernist links at both sites.Let us remember that Saint Faustina Kowalska and her divine mercy visions also suffred the same total condemnation as Necedah and Bayside,until Rome itself repealed it.Let us remember that Maria Valtorta who seems to have been an authentic mystic,her writings the poem of the Man God is still condemned by Rome,Let us remember that there were errors present in Venerable Anna Katherina Emmericks visions,Let us remember the most famous and sad case of the Churchs total condemnation of Saint Joan of Arc's mystical revelations which were authentic after all as it turned out.If the Church got it wrong in Saint Joans case and they did BADLY!!!!they can get it wrong today.Be careful of getting too proud and dismissing a visionary as false out of hand.Remember the mockery of justice that was Saint Joans judgement from the Church she loved.And Remember that only God ,the visionary and the Virgin know the real truth.The Church can make an educated guess as to a visions authenticity but it is not always the right one.Remember Saint Joan.Remember Saint Joan and dont forget what the Church did to her.

-- Paul Joseph Doyle. (pauljoseph2@bigpond.com), August 11, 2004.

Paul,

So basically, you accept and approve of all kinds of wierd phenomena which the Church has refused to accept or approve; yet you condemn as heresy charismatic spirituality which is fully accepted by the Church and supported by scripture. Yet I suppose you consider yourself Catholic? Which do you consider as having the greater authority in spiritual matters? The Church? Or you?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 11, 2004.

Dear Deacon Paul

Can you advise where I can find the constitutions of the Charismatic Renewal Movement as I am finding difficulty finding any!

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), August 11, 2004.

Hello Hugh,

You might find this search of the Vatican site helpful: Charismatic Renewal.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 11, 2004.

Emily

Thanks for that, but there are no constitutions here. Can anyone suppy these?

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugh@inpsired.com), August 12, 2004.

Try this one Hugh.

www.iccrs.org

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 12, 2004.

Here's the link to their statutes Hugh.

http://www.iccrs.org/statutes.htm#statutes

God Bless!

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 12, 2004.