Hi all, as a non-Catholic, I've been watching this forum for a while and, though you all don't seem to friendly to out-siders of my kind, I finally thought that I was ready to jump in. So here goes, wish me luck! I was just wondering if the Virgin Mary is considered a Goddess, or is she simply a human with Godlike powers? Obviously she seems to be able to do more than you or I, (as far as I know) and so I was just wondering everyone's opinion on this matter. Thanks everyone! PS. Fred the applejuice was wonderful!

-- Eugene (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 20, 2002

Answers

NO Mary is NOT GOD nor is sh e Godlike in any manner. She is simply a human being who has special Graces by GOD to be the one to bring her son and the son of GOD into the world. She is a Saint to all of us and our spiritual mother who was given to us by christ on calvary before he died.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 20, 2002.

Mary is not a Goddess. She is the Mother of God, and as Fred has said, our spiritual mother. She was the only human being to have been conceived without sin. "O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee." We do not worship her, we honor her as the Mother of God. She has appeared to many over the years and ask that we pray the rosary for peace.

The Pope asks us to pray the rosary for peace. I must say I am guilty of not saying it as often as I should, but with the world situation the way it is, I have been saying it more often. I believe it is the power of the rosary that caused Russia to be rid of communism. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 20, 2002.

The Bible, via the angel who speaks for God, addresses her "Hail Mary, full of grace." There are only two people in the whole entire Bible who are greeted by the word "Hail"; Jesus and Mary. (I checked using my Protestant Strong's Concordance)

She is the mother of a King, King Jesus, therefore she is a queen, "the most blessed of women" according to the Bible.

She submitted her life wholly to God from the moment of the angel's salutation -- even though she faced possible death by stoning, and definite excommunication. Her submission proved that she was wholly sanctified and set apart for the work of God -- the goal of every Christian.

He created her for himself; she is a creature, a special work of art, designed to bear the Christ-babe, raise the Christ-child and surrender the Christ-man for our salvation, according to the grace that He poured upon her and in her, solely for the purpose of bringing salvation to man through the bloodshed of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Her role in heaven is as her role was on earth; to point to her son and whisper "Do as He says."

She deserves special honor because she is a special lady!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 20, 2002.

Gail

Astounding --Hooray.. LOVE IT....

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 20, 2002.

Yes Gail, yes. Mary was indeed such a special lady! She is one who stands out in a long line of godly women who followed the Lord's will. With Rahab, Rachel, Elizabeth, Esther, Dorcas, and so many more, Mary will be called blessed for all generations! Fred,

Your voice grows stronger with each word

yet tolerance is seldom heard

you toss and turn and flail about

giving truth and wisdom throu'out.

but, oh, beware the wand'ring tongue

that spits its venom, and when done,

leaves no more faith or hope or love,

than lightning sent down from above!

Speak words of wisdom, truth and right,

and leave to God, the show of might.

And so my friend, God give goodnight.

Eugene

-- Eugene (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 20, 2002.

Eugene,

Dictionary.com defines goddess as: "A female being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people." Though Mary did possess "supernatural powers" they were all imparted to her by God, and everything was given to her by her submission to God. She, as Gail pointed out was dubbed, "Full of grace" not of her own accord, but it was an angel that assigned her that title. Further, she was "greatly troubled" by this title knowing her own "unworthiness" as the potential Mother of God, and realizing that all her "power" came directly from God. "Let it be done unto me according to Thy Word." This is only further drawn out by the Magnificat "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has looked with favor on his lowly servant. From this day all generations will call me blessed: the Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his Name...." Never once does she refer to herself as a Goddess, or anything remotely close, rather, she prays a prayer of worship always directing any praise she may receive to God.

Second, dictionary.com defines a Goddess as one who is "worshipped." Well, despite the many that will tell you that Catholics "worship" Mary, we do not. Rather, we seek her intercession on behalf of God. She merely "purifies" our prayers in order to make them acceptable to God. All worship is due God, however, we go to her that she may prepare us to welcome her Son. No one ever meets the son without, at one time or another, meeting their Mother.

Finally, Mary was born and created in time by God who is outside of time and never had a beginning nor an end. Jesus has always existed even before He was born, Mary, on the other hand, had not. Granted, she has been given extraordinary powers as Saint, but all of these "powers" are for the glory and praise due to God alone. From her apparitions to her time spent with her Son, it was all that God may be further glorified. Even at Cana when Jesus was not ready to perform a miracle, and told His Mother this, She never said, you must I am your Mother, no, She said, "Do whatever he tells you."

Mary is not a goddess, but rather, an extraordinary Saint given a myriad of gifts by God that He may be further glorified in Heaven and on Earth.

God Bless

-- Brian (sacerdos@hotpop.com), May 20, 2002.

Fred, the applejuice was wonderful?

I don't understand.Did Fred give you applejuice?

-- @ (nospam@curious.com), May 21, 2002.

Unfortunately, no, I have not recieved any juice of any kind, much less or the apple persuasion, from any C. Fred Anything. And so, to clear up the misconception, allow me to humbly request taht the Moderator omit the anonomous pst preceding this one of mine, left by an unknown yet well-meaning contributor, and thusforth move on with our discussions. Thanks be to you all and top of the day to each and everyone one of us.

-- Eugene (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 21, 2002.

Read your PS at the end of your post. That's why I asked.

-- @ (Nospam@curious.com), May 21, 2002.

Brian

Full of Grace is a state of being not a title. God gives graces and GOD gave Mary all of the Graces to be whom she was. Free of sin.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 21, 2002.

MaryLu, how do you know that Mary was conceived without sin. Did someone tell you this? In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Only sinners need a saviour. Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." As for everyone else the bible say "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". So if Mary calls God her saviour, and there is not reference in the bible that she was without sin, how do you come up with that?

thanks

-- KevinL (k4laps@attbi.com), May 21, 2002.

Hi Kevin:

Regarding the 'sinlessness' of Mary. Actually, the early church fathers, like Augustine, Jerome, and some even earlier church fathers, all reckoned Mary to be 'stainless.' She was not sinless by her own merit, but God KEPT her by HIS grace from sin, and NOT TO ELEVATE HER, but only to keep her as a holy vessel. Afterall, she did carry the Creator of the Universe in her womb -- no small task! Heck, most us women have trouble enough carrying our little packages, much less GOD!

If Christ were not devine there would have been no need for Mary to be kept from sin -- but we are not talking about a mere mortal man, we are talking the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

So you see the traditions of Mary being sinless (I prefer stainless as I think it causes less confusion) is based on reason, to be sure, and the early church fathers, and also as I stated in my prior post; She was the most blessed of women! She was full of grace. And she she was greeted as a queen!

You can actually read all the church fathers quotes about Mary. They are on line. You will see that when it came to the Mother of the Lord, the early church fathers voraciously defended her against many heretics -- to dishonor the mother is to dishonor the son! So you see, "There is Something About Mary -- Jesus" It's all about Jesus!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 21, 2002.

Here are some great quotes from early church concerning Mary.

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine,Nature and Grace,42[36](A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135

"As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 21, 2002.

"MaryLu, how do you know that Mary was conceived without sin. Did someone tell you this? In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Only sinners need a saviour. Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." As for everyone else the bible say "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". So if Mary calls God her saviour, and there is not reference in the bible that she was without sin, how do you come up with that?"

MaryLu, you probably will add your points, but I wanted to interject some of my feelings as well.

This is a Church Tradition - and the Bible teaches us to follow our Church traditions (not Sola Scriptura: You will note that the word "only" was added after Scripture in some Protestant Bibles. But this was an false addition)! How can I say Jesus has saved me from Drugs and Promiscuity, when I have neither taken drugs nor had sex yet? But I tell you He has! God Created His own Mother. And in doing so, He "saved" her at the moment of her conception. Remember, with God there is no past, present or future. Christ Died that Mary might be saved at her Conception. Mary's whole purpose was to bring Christ into the world to die for us (and her). I know there are bigger and better explanations (probably scriptural), but this is a doctrine of our faith and I embrace it full-heartedly.

Mary Mother of God, Pray for us.

In Christ.

-- jake huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 21, 2002.

Jake

Your Quote:. Christ Died that Mary might be saved at her Conception.

I believe this statement of yours may be in error in some way. Mary was declared favored by GOD at the moment of Conception and was without sin then too. If I have my fact right she was free from mortal sin but veinial sin she was not. It is the veinial sin that does not condemn a soul.

This is MY understanding of Mary and her life. She was totally obedient to GOD and free from mortal sin throughout her life and we are keeping her that way to this day.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 21, 2002.

Fred,

Sorry, "...prior to her Conception". Hope that fixes it. God found favor with her, but my point was that Christ DID indeed save her (as some non-Catholics might refute) when He made her!

Thanks for the suggestions.

In Christ

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 21, 2002.

Hi, Fred.

You Said, "If I have my facts right-She was free from mortal sin but venial sin She was not"......."This is my understanding of Mary and her life".

Fred, With all due respect, you do not have your facts straight about the life of Our Lady. We have 28 threads in this forum about the Blessed Mother. I would highly recomend Chris Butler's essay on Mary. It is beautifully written, with a lot of time devoted to Our Lady.

The part I am talking about in your comment Fred is."But venial sin She is Not" [Free from]. I think after you do a little reading you will know what I am refering to. Mary has no Sin, Mr. Bishop.

God bless you

David S

-- David (David@excite.com), May 21, 2002.

Really You mean Mary cannot make any mistakes of any sort. Now i have to differ on that one. Christ did chastize her at the finding at the temple. What is this blind leading the blind day? Mary was NOT immune to errors as any mortal being is. She was free from Mortal sin, Yes, small venial sins, It seems impossible.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 21, 2002.

Hi, Fred.

You said, " What is this, the blind leading the blind"?

No sir it sure is not! I just didn't want anyone to believe,"your understanding of Mary and her life". The Blessed Mother was free from all sin, only with the grace of God, Fred.

I will go look up the thread for you. I think the thread title is,"What Catholic's Believe about Mary" I don't have to say another word, because this essay covers a lot.

May God's Mother's will be done.

God bless you.

David S

-- David S (David@excite.com), May 21, 2002.

Actually, having Mary be a sinner would not violate Christ's holiness. For it is not the mere birth which condemns a man, but the misdeeds of the flesh (sin). Therefore, since the Bible warns against the doctrine that Jesus did not come IN the FLESH (in every way like us), we can assume that the earthly mother of Jesus was indeed sinful and needed her son to die as much as you or I. She is indeed blessed to have born such a Son! And indeed, we too are blessed to have recieved the fruit of her womb, yes even the very Son of God, as a living sacrifice, and now risen King, high above Mary, the disciples, you, and I. All hail the King, ce n'est pas vrai? Blessings to you all. :-D

-- Matthew (formerly known as Eugene) (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 21, 2002.

Fred - Your views of Mary are incorrect as she was the spotless vessel - chalice - in which the Father was able to enter and bring forward the second Adam.

She had been chosen from a line covering I believe it was 38 generations whereas Joesph was a full 56 from David the King. Anyone know the actual numbers?

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 22, 2002.

Jmj

Friends,
Jesus is indeed Mary's Savior.
He "saved" her, not in the sense of rescuing her from a pit of snakes into which she had fallen (as the rest of us do), but rather in the sense of preserving her from falling into that pit in the first place.
A man who reaches out and pulls a woman from quicksand "saves" her. If he then steps in front of a second woman to prevent her from falling in, he "saves" that woman too. The first is the way Jesus saves us. The second is the way Jesus saved Mary.

Fred, someone must have given you incorrect information. Mary did not even commit venial sins, the Catechism tells us (based on a declaration at the Council of Trent).
Here is the CCC -----
"[411]: ... Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life."

And here is Trent -----
"[Session VI, Canon 23:] If any one say that man once justified can during his whole life avoid all sins, even venial ones, as the Church holds that the Blessed Virgin did by special privilege of God, let him be anathema" (that is, excommunicated as a heretic).
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "Theologians assert that Mary was impeccable, not by the essential perfection of her nature, but by a special Divine privilege. Moreover, the Fathers, at least since the fifth century, almost unanimously maintain that the Blessed Virgin never experienced the motions of concupiscence" (that is, temptations of the flesh toward sin).

Don't worry, Fred. You haven't been excommunicated for contradicting Trent and the CCC, because no one had previously made you aware of the clear declaration, to which all of us must give assent.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 22, 2002.

I am fully aware that she had no original and mortal sin. You both miss the point completely. If Mary were to be "COMPLETELY " without sin, "MORTALLY" and "VENIALLY," then she would have to be GOD too. But the Fact remains is this, she had to suffer as a human and to fight off sin too and this in itself cannot be disputed. Mary was and is still the MOST perfect "HUMAN" person in the eyes of GOD h, her son Jesus and he gave her to us too. She became HIS GIFT to us to follow as a an example of SAINTHOOD and as the example of HOLINESS in her strength on her BELIEFS of the presence of GOD.

So there is absolutely no denial in the fact that sin had tempted her and that venial sin of some minr sort could not have entered her thoughts from time to time. I meann CAN YOU STAND THERE and see your child be tortured and be killed without some anger of some sort? NO, you can't and niether can Mary til she learns the full reasons of the episode.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 22, 2002.

Fred,

Please read John's post again. The Catechism specifically states that Mary committed NO sins of ANY kind. I cannot even guess how Mary felt at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. All I know is she did not sin by swearing, hitting, wishing ill will on them or anything else. How do I know that? Sacred Tradition and the Catechism tell me so.

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), May 22, 2002.

John

Sorry boys, this is an issue that I will have to deal with on my own. It is true what you have said and I honor that. You have no idea how much Mary means to me and the lessons she has taught me to this day about her son and the human conditions we all face daily in our lives and I have focused my prayers to her son with help from her and the answers he gives back to me through his Holy Spirit.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 22, 2002.

If the word sin is understood correctly, there's no question about Our Blessed Mother's sinless life. Sin is a true offense against the Creator. One can offend mildly or without malice. It still offends the All-Holy One who cannot even bear to look upon evil. If it offends, it is sin.

However, God is All-Just as well; and cannot commit the least possible error in judging our sins. In His perfection, God distinguishes between a sin for instance, like a ''broken promise'', and a malicious sin, like hatred of our neighbor, or crimes against our neighbor. The more unjust an action is, the greater the offense against God. --What offends Him severely is a MORTAL sin. If He finds an act of mine bad, but perhaps not malicious, He may call it a venial sin.

He is the sole judge; and with grace, He allows my own CONSCIENCE to discern the gravity of my sin.

Mary was preserved from even the slightest act that might have offended God. That is, from SIN. Her faith, hope and love were extraordinary, since she was full of sanctifying grace. She never even sinned by OMISSION.

Therefore, making a mistake, or an error in judgment has a human fault in it, yet isn't sinful at all. God could not be ''offended'' at Mary when she found the child Jesus in the Temple after being lost for three days. Her words to Jesus were not sins. Her concern for His safety was completely justified. Jesus did not ''chastise'' Mary for these words. He merely told her not to question what she didn't yet understand. If she had mistreated Him, it would have been an offense. She had neither the intention nor any possible way to offend Jesus or the Father.

Why? Because her words to Jesus, ''Son, why hast thou done this to us? Behold, in sorrow thy father and I have been seeking thee.'' --were words of astonishment (Luke 2, :48) and distress. --Her only son, Jesus whom she adored was lost for three days to her! In her pain she asked WHY? That is in no way a sin. It demonstrated her love perfectly.

In short, God Almighty never ONCE had cause to be offended by the Blessed Mother of Our Lord. Not the slightest offense was ever taken for any action of Mary's, even in the most extreme circumstances. We are completely certain, because God has revealed it. Her greatest trial came at the foot of Christ's cross on Calvary. Her actions are fully recorded by the evangelists, and in no way show that she reacted against anyone with hatred or anger. Nothing! No sin, then, can ever be imputed to her from these biblical findings.

Since we are bound by faith to believe entirely all that comes down to us from the holy apostles; and the ancient teachings are all in agreement, that Christ's holy mother was never guilty of any sin; we must thereby acknowledge this as a TRUTH; not a conjecture. The apostles didn't preach conjecture; they preached Divine Truth. The Church teaches us by the authority of Christ's apostles. If Mary weren't sinless, then, this would never have been taught us.

I'm scared the words of Churchill are here effective, this post being so awfully long: ''This report by its very length defends itself against even the risk of being read.'' Please forgive me.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 22, 2002.

I'm scared the words of Churchill are here effective, this post being so awfully long: ''This report by its very length defends itself against even the risk of being read.'' Please forgive me.

Nonsense Eugene! If learning the truth means that I must read a million books, let it be done! Thank you for your post.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 22, 2002.

Boys

I sure smoked you all out on this one.. I loved all of your replies. Thanks. Guess John and Gene win on this one.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 22, 2002.

Thank you, Fred. I am glad that I could be of help to you. David S

-- David (David@excite.com), May 22, 2002.

If the first Commandment clearly expresses that we should have and worship ONLY ONE GOD. If we Catholics accept and respect all ten Commandments, it would be not only silly but also illogical and sinful to accept Mary or any other human person as GOD. That is not so difficult to understand, is it? Christ is the SON OF GOD, He has the same Divine nature as God the Father and therefore He is also God. Outside of Him no other human can claim divinity to himself or herself.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 24, 2002.

If the first Commandment clearly expresses that we should have and worship ONLY ONE GOD, If we Catholics accept and respect all ten Commandments, it would be not only silly but also illogical and sinful to accept Mary or any other human person as GOD. That is not so difficult to understand, is it? Christ is the SON OF GOD, He has the same Divine nature as God the Father and therefore He is also God. Outside of Him no other human can claim divinity to himself or herself.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 24, 2002.

Tell that to the Mormons. They think otherwise ..

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 24, 2002.

Fred, you seem very zealous and knowledgable. May I inquire as to where you recieved your education? A Catholic Grammar and High School, and perhaps a Marian College?

-- Matthew (MagnificentExtravaganza@yahoo.com), May 29, 2002.

Matthew,

Remember that you hope for us all to show each other Christian charity in our posts. Patronizing Fred is inconsistent with your stated goal.

Thanks,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

Matthew (formerly Eugene, as in message at top of this thread) ---

Why ask Fred those questions? You must know the answers, since he gave you that "applejuice," right? (See the PS at top of this thread.) Are you his neighbor or a relative?

-- + (+@+.+), May 29, 2002.

"Why ask Fred those questions? You must know the answers, since he gave you that "applejuice," right? (See the PS at top of this thread.) Are you his neighbor or a relative? "

This applejuice thing has gone too far and it needs to stop NOW. I know who you are and you are just being an immature ass.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 29, 2002.

Joel, this is you deceiving people right?

-- . (.@......), November 29, 2002.

For the record, that was me back in "oh two" under a psuedonym in hopes of gaining your collective respect with a fresh start, an attempt which was relatively successful and which I have cleared up since then. Merry Christmas, all! --Joel

-- Joel (I@am.back), December 24, 2003.