It (still) pains me to have to admit that I was sexually abused as a 12 year old freshman at the Catholic HS in East St Louis, Ill. Brother Filii kept me after class and fed (literally) me candy bars as an inducement. When I rebuffed (innocently) his advances he was so angry he ridiculed me and insulted me in front of the class thereafter. Needless to say I was greatly relieved to be sent to Collinsvill HS for the rest of HS. I believe the church needs to set up a site where we ALL can come forward and receive the spiritual help that she owes (?) us, if she cares. But she probably won't since you don't seem to want to know the horrible extent of these injuries! Yours TRUTHFULLY, RAY HARTENSTEIN

-- Ray Hartenstein (judray@tyler.net), May 22, 2002

Answers

Ray,

I am sorry for the pain that you have endured. Trust in the Lord, do not reject Him or your faith. Unfortunatly there is always a few bad apples in every group.

I will pray for your healing. I will pray for the healing of other victims. I will pray for the Church. I pray that the "bad apples" will be punished for their crimes.

My heart goes out to you.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 22, 2002.

Why not print up some leaflets and put them on cars around the church this weekend. Propose that all donations be put into a escrow account untill the Church guarantees that they will expell any and all "Chicken Hawk" priests.

-- BillyPilgrim (madhack@mail.md), May 22, 2002.

Dear Ray,
When you have a just cause for complaint, a real grievance, the Church's leaders have an obligation, under the penalty of sin, to hear you and respond. You made some effort to report the offender, didn't you?

You may have been a minor, but even so, it would only have needed a phone call or a letter at that time. Are you now an adult?

You sign off saying, ''Truthfully,'' presumably because you think we'll say you lie. --Well, if it's true, it's true. We can't just dismiss your words as lies. I see an undercurrent in your post that carries an accusing tone. You say we don't want to know; and also a possible doubt that the Church will care. May I ask why?

You give the name of this school and the teacher's name very explicitly in your post. This being the Internet, that makes it a public accusation; of someone who isn't here to defend himself. Nevertheless, I tend to believe you. If it's all that easy to name names here, how come your accusation wasn't made before the authorities in East St. Louis? By naming the same names?

The Church HAS to care; --''the Church needs to set up a site where we ALL can come forward and receive the spiritual help that she owes (?) us, if she cares.'' and what if a site were set up? Have you thought about it? If spiritual help is what's really your problem, why not tell all this to your confessor? NOT as that part of your confession in which your own sins are confessed. You might simply ask-- ''May we speak privately about a serious matter?'' And if you'd rather not be seen, ask for a phone number. Speak with the priest at an appointed hour, tell him all the story. He can advise you privately. The ''spiritual help'' is directly involved in that kind of correspondence. One priest is all it requires, a priest you feel you can trust.

Maybe somebody here in the forum can give you the e-mail or phone numbers needed to speak on EWTN's question and answer program. I've seen it sometimes, a couple of priests taking calls, answering them on the show??? Are you familiar with it? You could ask for spiritual guidance from them.

If it's other than spiritual, of course, you run the risk of becoming just another plaintiff. Because as soon as you tell the story to others, a lawyer will surely be offering you his services. You know what that means. You'll add to the scandal, and the ''perpetrator'' Brother Filii--? He'll be ruined. Is that what you really would like to do?

Pray to GOD for His help. Ask for His grace; and that in whatever you attempt out of this matter, His Will be done.

We'll pray for you too, Ray. God bless you now.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 22, 2002.

Billy

So you want to deny the needs of the poor!!!!! What basket did they find you in? Good and Plenty? Where is your Christian attitute? You will deny the starved for your selfish needs? Please Lord, Where did this fruitcake come from? Help him to see the light.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 22, 2002.

Fred--
I submitted a lengthy reply yesterday to this scheme of Billy Pilgrim's and some others, which was deleted along with a few other posts. I don't know why these were deleted. They said nothing anti-Catholic or abusive; (don't recall if Molson broke in briefly), an I wish my post were here now.

Briefly, I warned Billy that any free-lance parish demonstrations of the sort are unfair to all the clergy. You would incite hate against good and trustworthy priests as well as the alleged guilty ones. That's a great injustice; a sin.

It's each man's PRIVATE business what he contributes or doesn't to his diocese or parish. A ''class-action'' movement of the sort Billy is pushing insults the Holy Catholic Church and the bishops all over the country; and all of them have a right to our respect and obedience.

Some dim-witted folks actually make us hated by other countries; always using the money angle for any excuse. Throw more money at it, that's enough.

In Pilgrim's example, it's ''withdraw'' your money. Every sin should be PAID for, in cash??? --Ka-Chinggg!! If you guys repent, you can have my money? Talk about the ugly American! This is the attitude other countries have come to associate with ugly Americans.

Our legal authorities are working on these scandalous matters already. There are more than enough Catholic-bashers flaying our priesthood now, without Catholics ''sending messages'' to the bishops. We have an obligation to give them moral support, as faithful children of God. Not tear them down, and humiliate all of them as a class. It's shameful of Billy Pilgrim to sound off at his own Church with ''demands''. Not only shameful; it's a gross insult to God and lack of faith. A SIN!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 22, 2002.

Eugene,

Would you mind elaborating on your 7th paragraph in your first post? I don't want to misinterpret what you are saying here.

Thank you,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 23, 2002.

Eugene,

You know, I'd like to second Kathy's request there. Um, if Brother Filii is or was a child abuser, shouldn't he be dealt with according to the law? I mean, Christian forgiveness, being absolutely necessary and key to Christ's commandment, shouldn't shield any such predator from the law (whether it would destroy him or not). That's how we got in this mess in the first place.

-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), May 23, 2002.

Should members care to " review " Eugene C's views on this subject it will become apparent he is in need of therapeutic councilling being in extreme denial fo his own life's happenings.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 24, 2002.

Jean

You know better than that. It is not you nor us that have the right to decide if Gene needs medical help or not. He has accepted his own situation well if not better than most others and was never closed minded to it as many others have. As far as I am able to see he has accepted it well and never hid from it like many have and expected his whole family to repay him for his personal pains as those who have bilked our church hace done and are now. I personally wonder day to day just how many of those cases out there are really legitimate.

AS Gene would probably agree with me on this, greed is the greatest fault of mankind and the slightest opportunity to gain instant wealth will always result in the huge payouts we hear about day to day. It is the single most heinious deed that I have seen in this social system of ours, Greed for wealth. To me the greatest wealth we have is our lives as we have given to us by GOD for it is the only one we will ever have til God calls us home.

I remember reading a few years ago about the Irish Catholics who weree being overrun by the British Protestants with the promise of material wealth. The Irish Catholics laughed and said, we do have great wealth in a good living with a good family, a roof over our heads, food on the table, good neighbors, and the graces of GOD who provides all of the things we need for our daily lives. Now what do you have? The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? We have our love for GOD and the reward which we get at the end of our lives, HEAVEN.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 24, 2002.

Friends:
I haven't advised Ray against pressing charges, or denouncing the Brother. I only asked what his options were. If the alleged perpretrator is innocent, no other testimony except Ray's will be necessary to condemn him. Ray should know that.

If he's guilty, it will add more anger and hatred to this scandal. I asked, is this your aim? I AM appalled at the consequences, either way. But I'm not the judge; God is the judge.

Even here, within this detached forum, the strange attitude is already set against ''Bro Fillii''. You have all judged him guilty of heinous crimes. No other word was requested or needed to see him as the guilty party. He wasn't asked to defend himself or even be present.

We have a sketchy description from Ray. The brother fed him candy bars. He then forced his attentions on the victim. I don't know to what extent he's guilty. Did he order the boy to undress? Did he try to subdue him, or touch him lasciviously on the chance he'd repond? If there is more than that, I see why he'd call his anger ''the horrible extent of these injuries!'' --The insults in the classroom are sinful; embarrassing Ray, etc., I agree. Are these alone enough to call for that brother's imprisonment?

Somebody here who's wiser than me tell me, Please. I'm just against rushes to judgment. God is the real Judge, isn't He?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 24, 2002.

Thank you, Jean:
There's no doubt you speak with no prejudice against me. I'm one who has criticized you for your blatant indecency. Now you see an opening? To denigrate me, and say I'm ''denying'' the facts?

I don't know the facts about the ''12-year old'' Ray Hartenstein. If I knew them, I'd let everybody here know where justice is to be had. You yourself aren't in denial? You have all the facts? You've interrogated the accused, and found out about his clear guilt? You have all the facts about Ray Hartenstein? You really feel there's no call to inquire about him? --Congratulations. One post is all you needed. You are absolutely brilliant!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 24, 2002.

Eugene C and others. Part of life consists of volunteering in Pastoral Coucilling in a Pysche Unit. My " area " is that of suicide attempts and slashers - self mutlilation - being mostly teenage girls and boys. Girls due to a myriad of social " norms " comprise 80 percent.

Should the cleric have offered treats etc: and was refused satisfaction then I believe the treatment in the classroom took place.

Should anyone care to take the time to read of a real life situation that took almost a full 20 years to " unravel " I strongly suggest the book on Mt Cashel Orphanage - Newfoundland Canada or perhaps viewing the movie " Boys Of St. Vincent.

These " occurances " are far more prevelant then most are aware. I hear this very often from young people who are not believed and then implode.

One of the oddities of sexually abused children and young adults is they turn to religion for comfort and security. Think then of the horrible situation of that person when he/she is violated by a cleric. For some the only way out is suicide. Then they feel they will be safe.

Suicide and slashers is the unspoken epidemic in our society. Most children tell the truth when approached and trust is offered. IN addition is the sense of not being judged while listened to.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 24, 2002.

Jean--
We know some cases are true, and need to be exposed, denounced and rectified. We do not need a ''good movie'' from your collection.

Your job lends you a great insight into the problems of ''young people who are not believed and then implode.'' I'm sure your sympathy for them is well-placed.

If you've at any time discovered or known of a false accusation against an innocent person, clergy or not; I think you would tell us, wouldn't you? Or are all accusations just accepted for true? Has a false accusation ever come to your attention? Or, in a court of law; did you ever know of a defendant coming out innocent? Am I in denial, if I should wonder about that possibility?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 24, 2002.

One of saddest developments has been the Memory Recall of Abuse out of California by a non-professional lady who was eventually thrown out of the system. Again a movie but have forgotten the name.

As to all being truthfull of course not as our minds do develop rationals and defenses for perceived wrongs. As to court hearing I have attended some and witnessed the accused getting away from an established pattern here in Canada.

I am not a psychiatrist rather my background is in physical therapies and became interested in other areas in the 80's Graduated in '77. Saw so many cases of SIDS in young females I questioned why and a whole new dark world opened up to me.

Thankfully I am debriefed once a month - my own session - with a phsychiatrist thus allowing me to remain " normal " whatever that may be in the society at present.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 24, 2002.

How very sad. My mother in law who has been a Catholic all of her life is confused and hurt. She has even accused the children of being partially at fault. Why do they wait so long to report? She said. It is sad that those guilty cant/wont do the "right thing" by simply confessing and asking forgiveness of their own sin. That is the scriptural correct thing to do. Why cant they do it?

-- another voice (sad@about.thewholemess), May 25, 2002.

Jean:
You are admitting that all you said the,

'' " review " Eugene C's views on this subject it will become apparent he is in need of therapeutic councilling being in extreme denial fo his own life's happenings.'',/i> -- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 24, 2002.

--basically are opinions of your own. Opinions based on a few movies or subjects that have received fictional arguments.

You say, ''I am debriefed once a month - my own session - with a phsychiatrist thus allowing me to remain " normal " whatever that may be in the society at present.''

And you have a way of ''knowing'' this about me:

''[I'm] in need of therapeutic counseling-- being in extreme denial of his own life's happenings.'' ----How do we determine if you know what you're talking about?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 25, 2002.

Eugene C - My my oh my.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 25, 2002.