Before 11 Sept attack, did any of you get any revelation(in dreams or in any other supernatural form) about things to happen. Did you ever feel some thing very unnatural (which you normally dont feel) before the worst event could take place.

It happened to me. I did see a dream / vision. Though I dont say that the dream was something that God wanted to show me about what is to happen. Just sharing one of my countless vision, that I have seen.

Vision : Before Sept 11 I saw a huge Church where there were some people arranging the choir and some arranging the Church for a great mass funeral. I saw many coffins on the streets. The bodies in the coffins were dark(jet) black as if roasted. The color of the bodies can be compared with the same colour of the meat, which is rosted too much then required. The whole secenario was very serious, frightening, and so painfull that my heart was broken. There were some people on the other side of the street who were saying the rosary and praying to Our Lady. On the other side of the street there were statues of Mary and some saints(dont remember). End of Vision

When I got up the following morning, I was very sad, ill at heart, painfull. After refreshing myself, I started to say my morning prayers(Divine office). I broke a Word for me, from my favourite bible, The Jerusalam Bible. The word was very horrifying( Jeremiah - though I dont remember the verse). The word was something like......see the king of tyre will be humbled....the enemy has shot its arrow...they are sharp......bringing retribution over the city.....great moaning, cries, sorrow, destruction, lament, war......etc. I really can't recall that reading.

And within three days Sept 11 occured.

There are some few question which I often ask myself. Why is it that I see these visions before they could take place ? If these vision are from God, then why does he wants to show me or warn me of the future ? Why does he wants to reveal the future comming events to me ? What can I do for these revelations. I have seen many revelations(including the one before the great earth of the century which took place in India Gujrat recently).

Some revelations / visions are concern with my personal life some are concern with the history(like WTC, earthquake in India). There are some revelation which I sometimes forget when I get up in the morning. Some I remember.

Your experiences are invited.

God Bless

PS : The purpose to start this thread is just to share my experiences. I am in no way trying to boast myself or glorify myself. The Glory belongs to Our LORD JESUS CHRIST.

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002

Answers

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-- . (.....@@..), May 28, 2002.

Sorry forgot to add one more revelation.

Some years ago I saw one of my fathers friend who had died in an accident, coming to me in a vision, wearing pure white clothes. His clothes are so white that the earthly white when compared to it will be off white colour.

In the vision I asked this person that "you were dead and why have you come here and about how he feels over there after dying. He answers "I just came wandering...there are lot of problem...suffering....pain....sorrow.

Then I asked him whether he sees Christ over there. His answer was "I dont him but I see his presence. On answering this he goes back to some unknown place.

I often see dead souls coming to me and asking me to pray for them. I really dont understand why they come ? They are still mystery. I usually dont pray for them as I am not yet sure if these revelation are from Heaven or Hell.

God Bless

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

Hi:

You aren't alone in your prophetic visions. I have heard of several groups that had been given a glimpse of the horrors to come prior to 9/11. Dreams and visions can be misleading, so you sort of have to keep a reign on it, and not let them LEAD your life. Just be careful.

I ran accross this article on CBN (which is not Catholic but Pat Robertson is not anti-Catholic and has met with the Pope once or twice). Anyway, I don't know if it's true but it really is an awesome story and contains quite a chilling message: The fellow being interviewed is an evangelist to Africa. He has lead many many souls to Christ. He is a rather humble man and not at all like the TV evangelists in this country. This story is about a man raised from the dead in one of his meetings, and what the fellow saw while he was dead -- heaven AND hell!

MIRACLE Reinhard Bonnke Tells of Nigerian Man Raised from the Dead

The 700 Club

May 24, 2002

Imagine you are a pastor claiming to serve the Lord, when a car accident takes your life. Immediately you are whisked away by angels to be shown heaven and hell. Shocked, you learn that if God decides not to send you back to Earth, you will suffer in hell forever. This is the story of Pastor Daniel Ekechukwu of Nigeria, Africa, who came back from the dead while Reinhard Bonnke was preaching.

Evangelist Reinhard Bonnke joins Pat to discuss this miraculous testimony.

PAT ROBERTSON: The Bible says that before the throne of God there will be this vast multitude from every people and tongue and nation. And we are seeing a multitude that no man can number. It is a great pleasure to welcome back to The 700 Club a dear friend, a man who is speaking to more people face-to-face, I believe, than anyone else in history. Reinhard, it is a delight to have you with us.

REINHARD BONNKE: Thank you, Pat.

ROBERTSON: I understand that in Nigeria, you haven't seen nine million in your crusades; you had nine million decisions for Jesus.

BONNKE: Yes at the last five crusades, every crusade is five days. From November of last year to March of this year, we had 9,120,000 registered decisions, people completing the decision card. We counted the decision cards: 9,120,000 in five months. Next year instead of five crusades, I want ten crusades, and so instead of having 10 million, we will have 20 million souls for Jesus.

ROBERTSON: You just have never seen such numbers. In India 1,200,000 is the vastest crowd I have ever seen assembled. It was unbelievable.

BONNKE: It is awesome. It is an ocean of humanity.

ROBERTSON: What is God saying to you about Africa? I know you have a call to Africa. Nigeria is the most populous country in Africa. What is He saying to you? The fire of revival is burning like never before.

BONNKE: Yes. Nigeria has its problems, nobody denies that, but there is a surge of spiritual, I would say, Christian dynamics that are awesome. We are not at all with our back to the wall, not at all. I mean, it just moves like a mighty ocean wave of freshness and strength and power. Jesus saves. We see testimonies like this man coming back to life.

ROBERTSON: I want you to tell us about him. He was in one of your meetings. He was hit by a car. I understand he was stiff and rigormortis had set in. I don't know if they had embalmed him or not.

BONNKE: They did.

ROBERTSON: He had been embalmed?

BONNKE: He was embalmed, but not the way it is done in America with the removal of organs. They injected chemicals into the body to slow down decay, since there was no refrigeration.

ROBERTSON: So what happened?

BONNKE: His wife was one with a promise from God that woman have received back the dead by resurrection. She said, 'My husband will come back, and I have heard Reinhard Bonnke is in Onitsha this Sunday I will bring him there. She brought him there. I was preaching and I knew nothing about it. Suddenly, the man started to breathe. His story is awesome and what he was shown while he was in eternity.

ROBERTSON: Tell me, what did he see?

BONNKE: An angel took him to show him Paradise. He showed him the mansions that are waiting for the saints. And he showed him hell. He saw the people in hell. He said one shouted to him, 'I was a pastor and I stole money. Help me to return the money.' He said it was so frightening to him that the angel turned to him and said, 'The prayer of the rich man in Luke 16 will now be fulfilled, and you will be sent back to earth as a last warning to this generation.'

ROBERTSON: For those who are not aware of that, in Luke 16 the rich man lifted up his eyes in torment and said, 'I have a number of brothers. Let me go back and warn them.' Father Abraham said, 'No, they have Moses and the prophets. If they won't believe them, they will not believe the one who rose from the dead. Now, he says that in this last day, he's going to be the one? He has come back?

BONNKE: He has come back. People who see this video [Raised from the Dead] are getting saved by the thousands. I hear reports from across the world. It is such a powerful tool of evangelism and we are absolutely delighted. I wish I could have produced Pastor Daniel here today.

ROBERTSON: We tried to get him through customs, but it is so tough in America to get a visa in this country. We couldn't get him in. You say he saw hell. Were there fires? Torment?

BONNKE: He said he saw no fire but he said he saw these people cannibalizing themselves. Every time they had done it, the flesh seemed to jump back to the same places and then the torment started again. He said it was so horrible. He came back and said, 'Heaven is real. Hell is real. Become serious with God. You need to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and live a holy life.'

ROBERTSON: I want to stop right now, ladies and gentlemen, and ask, where are you in the Lord? Are you playing games with God? Where are you with God?

Reinhard, give this audience a word about how they can come to Jesus. We will talk more about these crusades, but there are people right now who need to be spared from hell.

BONNKE: It is true. I would say it this way. We have to say 'yes' to Jesus. Many have done that, but when saying 'yes' to Jesus, we must say at the same time 'no' to sin. Otherwise, that 'yes' to Jesus is invalid. We cannot walk in two directions at the same time. If we do, we fool ourselves. That would be very terrible, like that pastor that was witnessed there. Say 'yes' to Jesus from the bottom of your heart and turn around from unrighteousness. Repent of your sins and receive forgiveness by the blood of Jesus Christ Then walk the path of righteousness. Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Let's pray together right now. Pray 'Dear Lord Jesus, I say 'yes' to you and 'no' to sin. Forgive me of my sins. Wash me with your precious blood. Come into my heart, Lord Jesus. In Jesus name, amen.'

ROBERTSON: Amen. Those who prayed with Reinhard call us at 1-800-759- 0700 and we will send you a free booklet called 'A New Beginning.' We want you to be established in the Lord. And whether you want literature or not just call us and say that you prayed. Hell is real. Hell is real. The Bible talks about it and Jesus talks about it. What that man was saying, Reinhard, was that it wasn't so much literal flames, but the flames of missed opportunity and the anguish of conscience. And these people are gnawing on their own flesh because they hate what they have done so much they are trying to destroy themselves but they can't?

BONNKE: All accused themselves. They didn't blame anyone else. He said that they didn't see the angel next to him. They only saw him and were calling for help. The angel turned around and said that Daniel would be connected to me and that through me this testimony would be spread across the whole world. Suddenly Daniel gasped for air in the church. He was there in the basement while I was preaching upstairs, 'In the name of Jesus!' It is awesome. I mean that story has covered Nigeria, Africa, and the world.

ROBERTSON: I am sure this man was not learned in the Bible, but the Apostle Paul says your own conscience will either excuse or accuse you in the day of Jesus Christ. So their own conscience was their accuser. They were accusing themselves?

BONNKE: Yes. Yes they do.

ROBERTSON: They weren't covering up anymore. A pastor had been stealing money. He was essentially a fraud and a hypocrite and he was in hell crying out for help?

BONNKE: Yes.

ROBERTSON: But there is no help. Once they are there, they are there. It is permanent.

BONNKE: That is so. You know, you mentioned about the missed opportunity.

ROBERTSON: Oh, dear!

BONNKE: They keep on missing it because there is no opportunity.

ROBERTSON: What did he see in heaven?

BONNKE: He saw the saints worshiping. He said it was so wonderful he wanted to enter that place. My question to him was 'Did you see Jesus?' He said there was a white, bright light and all of those saints were worshiping and looking in that direction. He said, 'I shaded my eyes, but my eyes could not penetrate it.' Then he was taken to the mansions. He tried to describe the beauty of those mansions. He said, 'Like, like, like.'

ROBERTSON: He didn't have the words.

BONNKE: He said he was told the mansions are ready but the saints are not.

ROBERTSON: Oh, my! Did Jesus or anyone give him a warning for the church? Did he come back and say something to those who are supposed to be living for the Lord?

BONNKE: He had another fearful experience. I didn't know this Pastor Daniel at all. He said that the angel said to him, 'If God had not decided to send you back to earth, you would join the people in hell.' He was shaking.

ROBERTSON: But this guy is a pastor. What was it?

BONNKE: He was a man who didn't live right.

ROBERTSON: So he was a fraud.

BONNKE: He was not living right. He now lives right.

ROBERTSON: But if he hadn't had that experience, he would have joined those in hell?

BONNKE: That is what he was told.

ROBERTSON: Oh, my goodness! That, Reinhard, is a much tougher standard than we are used to. We are thinking here in America of easy grace and I am a good guy.

BONNKE: My own television team that made that video said they couldn't sleep for three nights and everybody brought their lives up to standard, the standard of the Word of God. It brought a lot of heart searching.

ROBERTSON: Did this man have a chance to speak his testimony to that multitude that came to hear you?

BONNKE: He was at my crusade. It was fantastic. I had him in Vienna. At the same time, while I had my meetings there, there was an esoteric convention there. When they heard that someone had come back from the dead, they love to hear the voices from the dead, and s they said, 'Can you not address us?' He went to speak to them, preached, and made an altar call and 50 witches got saved.

ROBERTSON: This is incredible. Do you have a video?

BONNKE: It is right here [Raised from the Dead]. So many pray for their loved one. This is a step further. This really is a call to salvation that is very urgent.

ROBERTSON: I am inspired having you with us.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 28, 2002.

Gail

I am going to be blunt with you on this one. I really think Robertson is an idiot and a real hypocrit too. He claims the GOD let this happen (Sept 11). That is the biggest joke I have ever heard of. GOD does not allow or create disasters. It was a totally manmade event out of hatred by a small group of so called humans with distorted religious beliefs.

Robertson is ion my view a total idiot and hypocrit looking for all the Glory he can muster for himself.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 28, 2002.

How can you say that God didn't let this happen? I know that you only want to defend God's loving nature, but if He didn't let it happen, it would NOT have happened. Although God is pure Love and pure Justice, God respects our free will. And if we want to destroy ourselves, although it grieves Him greatly, He will permit it. In the Catechism under "angels" it talks about how God ALLOWS the devil to torment us (similar to Job), but that these "crosses" will not be more than we can bear. Sept. 11 was a horrible, and outright tragic event. But as Catholics, we must believe that what happened was permitted by God for his Greater Glory (in a way we may never fully understand untill we see Him face to face). In the same way abortions are permitted to happen (if God didn't allow them to happen, they would not). He does not WANT them to happen (and nor do we Catholics), but our stubbornness in our free will He respects. I firmly believe that without the intercession of our Mother Mary, and without her pleading cry to God to hold back his wrath just a little longer, we would all be giving an account of our lives to God Himself right now. Only in special situations does God intervene physically in our human actions. But as we are given a choice between good and evil, God will suffer our bad choices because He wants us to be able to freely say "I do" when we come to know His Truth!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (Jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 28, 2002.

Jake

Your Quote:

"what happened was permitted by God for his Greater Glory"

Please give GOD a break. He DOES NOT permit things of this magnitude to happen. It is fully the will of a few men who subjected us to suffer this to happen out of their lack of faith in the true GOD, GREED and HATRED. Nothing more.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 28, 2002.

Please give GOD a break. He DOES NOT permit things of this magnitude to happen. It is fully the will of a few men who subjected us to suffer this to happen out of their lack of faith in the true GOD, GREED and HATRED. Nothing more.

This is true - It was fully the will of those who did this. But, God gave them that free will, and He respected this "will". If God didn't permit (permit as in allow to happen, not permit as in say that it is okay) this - then let me know how it happened? For, what ever God does NOT allow to happen, must necessarily NOT happen! I'm not trying to degrade God, or make Him look bad. Like I said, what He allows He allows for a reason. And some of these reasons are beyond me, but I must trust our Awsome God who knows what He is doing!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (Jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 28, 2002.

Fred,

So you are saying that God did not permit this to happen because of the MAGNITUDE of it? So God only permits bad things to happen that are of small magnitude?

Hey, I'm not saying that God WANTED it to happen. He didn't. But God gave man (and woman) free will, and allows us to choose our actions and those actions can and do have consequences, for ourselves and for others. This is true in the very small things and the very big things.

God is in control. That is absolutely true. God does permit bad things to happen, small and very large. He permits them because he gave every single human being free will to choose.

But here's the thing. God can, and does, take those bad things, small and overwhelmingly huge, and work good from them. I've seen that happen over and over, even with 9/11.

You are absolutely right in saying this: "It is fully the will of a few men who subjected us to suffer this to happen out of their lack of faith in the true GOD, GREED and HATRED." BUT it is precisely the fact that they exercised their free will, which God has given to each one of us, that we can say that God DID permit this to happen. He did not stop them from making the choice they did. He PERMITTED them to make this evil choice, and thus PERMITTED it to happen.

cksunshine

-- cksunshine (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Jake,

I guess we posted at the same time!

Xavier,

I myself did not have any such experiences, but I have read of many instances where people were awakened (for no known reason) at around 3 a.m. to pray before 9/11.

cksunshine

-- cksunshine (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

CK

Yes, he did. It was the works of the EVIL one who was the true perpretrator of the grave deed. The perpetrators are the sorry ones for having ignored their own teachers who tried to show them the true path. The evil rests on the false teachers within the Moslem world.

Does that seem true to you?

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 28, 2002.

Hi everyone:

Didn't mean to set off a firestorm. Fred, I think Pat Robertson has done and said some goofy things, and I don't agree with him on alot of his doctrine. in fact, I really never watch his program; someone sent me the article.

I do think, though, that this country is losing the divine umbrella of protection it has enjoyed since its founding, largely due to our embracing of evil, casting God aside, allowing Satan to use our schools as his personal playground, and the 40 million babies we have slaughtered in this country. We furnish the rest of the world with pornography. This country has become a trashcan of filth that we ship all over the world.

But like you said, God does not CAUSE evil -- no way. I agree with you 100%. We live in a sin-cursed world and we live with the consequences of choices made by evil people. God is sovereign, however, and Satan is subject to Him, and he can only go so-far with his evil plans working through evil people. The Holy Spirit is the one who restrains evil (according to Thessalonians). Someday, when the Lord returns, the Holy Spirit will be taken away, and He will stop restraining evil altogether, and then Satan will be allowed to have his way -- completely.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 28, 2002.

Gail

Did you know that the major portion of Pornogaphy actually comes from Europe. Germany and Holland are the biggest contibutors of it and Russia is rapidly catching up. The latest NAMBLA bust on the internet originated in Germany and Holland.

The Dutch are in a turmoil as of this moment with the free sex and drug culture that exists there today only because of the tourist attraction it brings. And Homosexuality is out in the open there too

The Churches in Holland have actually given up on fighting these issues and are in waiting for the Sodom and Gohmorra event to happen there now.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 28, 2002.

Hi Fred:

The pastor of the church I used to attend had such a burden for Europe. He says there is such a spiritual vacuum over there; it is like a tremendous dark cloud of depression. I really fear for our country, Fred. I think that's where we are headed, and what kind of country are we leaving our children?

There must be a spiritual awakening in this country, in the Church -- a revival and renewal, if this country is to survive what lies ahead. I think what is even worse than 9/11 is the spiritual death of a great nation!

Thanks for the info. WE CAN'T GIVE UP!!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 28, 2002.

Xavier, please remember what the Bible says about the afterlife. There is no "wandering" of our souls. We go to heaven if we knew Christ personally and loved him, by God's grace through our faith in him. We go to hell if we chose to try to earn salvation ourselves and live in our sin, rejecting God's grace. Also remember that a demon can masquerade as "an angel of light" and this may be what you have witnessed. I would encourage you to pray vigorously to the Lord and seek his wisdom on the matter. Stand Still and know that He is God.

-- Matthew (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

I have seen several articles on the religious vacuum in Europe. Most of them in Spain, France, Italy and other predominate countries are suffering from The "I AM catholic" by name only syndrome. It is very prevalent here too. The Pick and Choose thing is very noticeable. I have seen many who do not even know the words and purpose of the Holy Rosary. Sad but true. Would you believe I am a member of a parish who do not even know the Fatima Prayer (Oh, My Jesus). Spooked me when I was told they did not know of it or even heard of it.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 28, 2002.

Fred,

We have a visiting priest in our parish who will not let anyone say the rosary during mass. You know how some people do that. I cannot do that, concentrate on the mass and say the rosary. I don't know how people do.

Anyway, he is totally against saying the Fatima Prayer. He said people included the Fatima prayer into the rosary, it is not a part of the original rosary at all and 'should not' be said. He gets furious when he hears people say that.

Just wanted to share that with you. I guess he might spook ya too, Fred...he probably would - he is quite the character! :) MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 28, 2002.

Marylu

The Fatima prayer to me is one of the most beautiful prayers I have ever heard and I say it a lot, just to hear the words. It is so fitting for all of us. It helped free Russia.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 28, 2002.

Hello, Mary Lu.
I was sorry to read about the priest who mistakenly criticized the Fatima prayer (used between decades). It is optional -- that's for sure -- but I have no doubt at all that Pope John Paul II prays it.

I must tell you, though, that the priest was right to say that we should not pray the rosary (or other devotions) during the Mass. In 1974, Pope Paul VI issued a document called "Marian Devotion." In contains these words:

"[I]t is not difficult to understand that the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration. It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiarizing the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and can also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Fred,

You have mentioned in your above post, addressed to CK as"Yes, he did. It was the works of the EVIL one........"

Could you please be clear to mention the name of the person you are pointing ?

Thanks

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 29, 2002.

Hello to you all,

Thank you for your post.

When I first saw the live coverage of the planes shattering the WTC, it really made me cry. For many days I was depressed, highly emotional,& shocked.

I kept on searching for clues and answers so as why did God allowed it to happened and the reason for showing me the future event. It took days. I prayed to God to reveal the meaning of this vision. I found the answer.

Christianity has been customized by modern day revolution thinking (by those priest and sects who thing that christianity is a religion). We always plan as if we are going to live forever. This isbecause we have never added death to our plans. Just add death to your plans and see your plans will change.

Christianity is not a religion. It is a way of life. The only path that agrees with nature and heaven.

People who died in the WTC event doesnt mean that they were sinners or worst than us. Infact they might have been much better than us. Probably they had the grace to undergo the event. The apostles tells us that no suffering can ever come to you untill and unless you are capable to face it. May be the people in the tower were much capable than us. Let the LORD judge and not we.

We live in a culture of death. In todays present world death means the end of everything. Death is not the end of every thing. But infact it is the journey towards its beloved, a journey to meet it creator, a journey to enter the rest forever.

If you read the story of early Christian or Saints you will find one thing in common and that is they were always ready to sacrifice their life, with joy in their hearts, and many of them did. What made them do this ? It was their faith, their relationship with God. Their faith in God was so strong that they were sure that HE will not abandoned them in sepulcher. In fact many of them died blessing God.

Recently one of the priest visited my parish and was telling about those priest who were on their death beds. He had witness many of them dying and administered the Holy Eucharist at their death. What he said was very shocking. He said that many of the priest die CURSING GOD rather than blessing HIM(Let us not judge them).

That does not mean that all priest are the same. The difference is how serious we are with our relationship with GOD. How often do we make GOD as the center of our life rather than our career, money or other material desire. It is not bad or sin to have money or be prosperous, but it is definitely a sin to be mastered by it(money).

Just as the proverb goes "Everything is fare, in love and War" Same with our life in the Spiritual arena. Spiritual we may claim that we know God and yet we may not be knowing him. We can say that we met HIM....and yet on the Judgement day will be rejected just because we actually never knew him. What is important is not just taking the Catechesim of the Catholic Church and pinpointing the laws to others or finding loopholes in it(though the laws has its own place). What is important is to practise the words, the commandments our Savious and LORD JESUS CHRIST gave us.

Then I understood that the Church and the Statues of Mary and other Saints I saw in the vision were infact trying to tell me that death is not the end. It is the journey of the soul towards eternal life and prayers are required more than before. We must ask Our Lady to interceed for us.

Peace

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 29, 2002.

Xavier

It is no mystery as to how free will guides us. We have the distinct ability to chose right from wrong, good vs evil and what ever. GOD does not "ALLOW" evil to occur. It is the works of the evil one satan. We are ALL give the choice to follow thw will of GOD or the EVIL of satan.

GOD DOES NOT LET things happen, it is the acts of those who deny GOD and chose the ways of the EVIL one. GOD did in fact give us information that this may happen,(Sept 11), but our information experts blew it by not reading the clues properly. We have most of the tools to combat terror now, but we still need to learn how to use them properly with GOD's help. I don't think that GOD ever denies us anything and we need to realize that GOD is always on our side. Remember the Old Testament Prophet Daniel when he was asked by the King what the writing on the wall said? He was scoffed and Daniel escaped the city through a hole in the wall and then saw the city become destroyed by it's own evil. The Bible is right again. GOD gave us the tools and the information. We just messed it up by not sharing it properly between the CIA and FBI and the rest is history.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 29, 2002.

Hi there,

In regard to the Fatima prayer, I read just the other day that this prayer can be meant for the souls in Purgatory too. It gave me a whole new perspective on it! :)

Fred, I am also confused on who you were referring to when you said, "Yes, he did..." Could you please elaborate?

I must disagree with your last post though. It makes no sense to say that God gives us free will, free choice, and then He doesn't allow evil to happen. He allows people to make evil choices, therefore He allows evil to happen. I think that Gail said it very well when she said:

But like you said, God does not CAUSE evil -- no way. I agree with you 100%. We live in a sin-cursed world and we live with the consequences of choices made by evil people. God is sovereign, however, and Satan is subject to Him, and he can only go so-far with his evil plans working through evil people. The Holy Spirit is the one who restrains evil (according to Thessalonians). Someday, when the Lord returns, the Holy Spirit will be taken away, and He will stop restraining evil altogether, and then Satan will be allowed to have his way -- completely.

If what you are saying, Fred, when you say that God doesn't allow evil, is that God doesn't CAUSE evil, then I agree also 100%. But God does ALLOW (permit) evil to happen. He permitted evil to happen to his only begotten son. Also look at the book of Job. Satan had to go to God to get permission to inflict the suffering, the evil, upon Job. God did not CAUSE it, but He ALLOWED it. Now some people will say that Job is a story, it did not really happen. That is not the point. The point is that it is in our Bibles for a reason, so that we can learn God's principles. One of them is that God is God of EVERYTHING, and that sometimes He ALLOWS evil to happen, though His ways are so far above our ways, and we may not understand why. But God is sovereign and Lord of all. And Satan is subject to Him. Like I said, Gail said it much better than I.

Perhaps Fred, it really is a matter of symantics here, and you and I are saying the same thing. I'm not sure.

As far as Muslim teachers, and what the government knew/didn't know etc, I don't feel I have enough information to comment on those issues.

cksunshine

-- cksunshine (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), May 29, 2002.

Those who say that God "permits" or "allows" evil are correct. The proof is here, in paragraphs found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -----

311. "Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. [Cf. St. Augustine, De libero arbitrio I, 1, 2: PL 32, 1221- 1223; St.Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 79, 1.] He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it: For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. [St. Augustine, Enchiridion II, 3: PL 40, 236.] "

324. "The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life."

If someone denies that God "permits/allows" evil, he either [1] is contradicting the Church or [2] was incorrectly taught the meaning of the words "permit" and "allow" and is thus misunderstanding the conversation.

-- CaCaCh (Ca@Ca.Ch), May 29, 2002.

Xavier - I loved your post and death. My lesson learned on this was while on retreat in a Monestary and a monk had passed away. The mass was a celebration of Joy with a wonderful meal afterwards. He had entered the portal and is still with us only much much stronger now.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 30, 2002.

CaCaCh - wonderful presentation.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 30, 2002.

"We have a visiting priest in our parish who will not let anyone say the rosary during mass. You know how some people do that. I cannot do that, concentrate on the mass and say the rosary. I don't know how people do."

It is interesting that you said this, MaryLu. I have a hard time saying the words and still concentrating on the mysteries! I read that Padre Pio would say the Rosary while he was speaking to others. That is why you will see him sometimes with one hand tucked in his shirt. But this might be easy for someone who could bi-locate! I guess it all comes with practicing mental prayer. If you are able to do it during Mass, that is if you can still concetrate on the readings, etc. (you really don't need to draw the priest attention to it). I would, however, recommend not saying the Rosary during the concecration, as one's full attention should be centered on the Passions of Christ. Thanks for your post.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (Jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 30, 2002.

Jean

Thank you very much.

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 31, 2002.

Jake, please read my May 28 post, above -- i.e., what Pope Paul VI wrote against praying the rosary during Mass (not just during the consecration). [Lest there be any misunderstanding, he greatly praised the praying of the rosary outside of Mass.]
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 02, 2002.

John,

Thanks! I never read this old thread about what our Holy Father said about praying the Rosary during Mass.

To be honest I was praying my Rosary tonight at Mass. I learn something new everyday. You would not believe all of the old Nuns I see praying their Rosary at the Seton Shrine during Mass.

God bless you

David S

-- @ (David@excite.com), August 25, 2002.

Someone pulled this old thread up; I did read this until now:

cksunshine: "I myself did not have any such experiences, but I have read of many instances where people were awakened (for no known reason) at around 3 a.m. to pray before 9/11."

I that experience on and off for about 18 months, but not so much lately. I had it 4 or 5 days in a row immediately preceeding Sept. 11.

Yes I have had a few dreams that have come true in great accuracy/detail within a week or so. I don't give it much thought. I have a recurring dream (low frequency, maybe every couple months), but it is the same event/location from different vantage points in each dream, of a nuclear event. I think there is something to it but I don't what to do with it... so I just let it slide.

But what can I do with it really? I can't prove anything. I can't afford the risk of aquiring Jerusalem Syndrome. =)

As bad as Sept. 11 was, one must remember it is only one of many other tragedies worldwide that go uncovered.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 25, 2002.