I'm in an envious position: my fiancee has offered to buy me any camera system I choose as an engagment present. (Her offer offsets somewhat the damage inflicted on my bank account by her ring, an item I regard as useless.) I have a fairly complete M6TTL system (black body, 24, 35, 50, and 90mm lenses). The question now is, do I opt for medium format or indulge in a Nikon F5 with a brace of high end zooms? In short, what best complements the M?

To add to the confusion, I stopped by Ken Hansen today. He's got a beautiful Rollei 6008 system for under $3k. Tough to focus, but the big negative is enticing. I also considered the R8, but was told it's just not selling.

-- Gulley Jimson (gulleyjimson@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002

Answers

Unless you need AF, a fast motor and long and/or macro lens capability, I wouldn't advise getting a Nikon system. The R cameras and lenses are first rate, as long as you like a traditional system without a lot of bells and whistles. I have an R6.2, 180/2.8 APO and 80/1.4. The lenses are incredible, way ahead of Nikon.

If I were in your situation, I'd get a Hasselblad with a couple of lenses. Much like Leica, the cameras feel like precision instruments. They're pricey, but if that's not an issue, and if you like the square format (as I do), go for it.

You could also check out the Mamiya 7II. It's like a 6x7 version of a leica rf. It's relatively small, very quiet and handles well.

You should decide what kind of work you want to do and which system would be most useful for that kind of photography.

Good luck with the decision, and congratulations on the engagement.

-- Noah (naddis@mindspring.com), May 31, 2002.

I'd wait a year to see what's coming on the digital horizon. Surely a full-frame sensor in upper-end, prosumer bodies is on the way.

In the meantime, you've got a great system

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), May 31, 2002.

For me, the perfect compliment to my Leicas is a 4x5 field camera. I'm drooling over a Toyo metal field body right now. For the work I do, I either want small, light, fast working tools to catch things quickly- for which I use my M's, mostly- or I want to work slowly, methodically, carefully. For these portraits, landscapes, architectural work, etc. I figure that if I'm going to use a tripod and carry all the heavy stuff, I might as well get a nice 4x5 neg or positive. So I have very little use for medium format. The only place I use 120/220 is for wedding formals.

The point is this- what's your way of working? What do you like to photograph? How do you shoot? Answer these questions, and you will know exactly what sort of system to put the generous offer into.

As for your fiancee- does she have a sister? I'm in New York, too...

-- drew (swordfisher@htomail.com), May 31, 2002.

I would trade my M6 for a M7, then I would consider a Bronica 645RF, Its got the larger neg, PLUS its a rangefinder! Nicely made as well. Hasselblad is an option, at least with a 150mm lens. If you do Nikon, do primes, no zooms, 300mm 105mm etc. save that for your 'long' work.

-- mike (thearea19@aol.com), May 31, 2002.

Personally, I'd go for an EOS 1v and the 70-200mm f2.8 L IS, and then maybe the 16-35mm f2.8 L. For 6x6, I think your hard put to exclude the Contax 645 AF with Zeiss lenses. Of course, I'm plenty happy with my Leitz M6 and Elmar-M, so if I were you, I'd be on a plane right now, with nothing but carry-on luggage, heading for some exotic destination, or three, to burn film with what you already have.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

I think a medium format system would be nice...maybe with a widish lens and a portrait lens. Me, I'd go for a Hasselblad, but then again I don't know too much about Rollei, which may be just like a Hasselblad. Good luck...

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

A nice Hasselblad 203FA, 45degree prism viewfinder, and 80mm-CFE lens. Cant do too badly with that!

-- Charles (cbarcellona@telocity.com), May 31, 2002.

Gulley:

Buy the 35 and a good 70-200 zoom before the MF set-up -- in the long- run you'll find it more useful. Once you've got that, look into the MF system.

Now I'll make another push to consider Canon over Nikon in high-end SLR's. I find the Canon SLR bodies and lenses to be far more compatible ergo-wise in use AND the lenses closer in image quality to the Leica. I do not mean to imply that Nikon's image quality is inferior in any way - just different - and that the structure or "feel" of the images from Canon glass is more similar to Leica than those from Nikon.

Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), May 31, 2002.

It really depends what you think is missing from your current equipment lineup. Do you want to take wildlife (eg. birds, safari, underwater)? Do you want to do studio?

1) For wildlife - I would get an AF SLR hands down and the F5 would be my choice. f5 with full equipment spread can weigh you down.

2) Studio/still life - Hasselblad. Just a pain lugging around town or on trips - trust me you don't want to do this unless you are getting paid.

3)Landscape/outdoors - Linhoff ... going a bit over the deep end now.

4)If all you want is a Medium format version of what you do on the Leica then the Mamiya 7ii is worth a think.

-- John (johnlktan@yahoo.com), May 31, 2002.

I don't recall what subject matter you concentrate on, Gulley, so it's difficult to provide solid advice. You might find some interesting thoughts in the combo thread a few days ago.

I also use an F5 with the 28-70mm and 80-200mm AFS zooms you alluded to. They, plus 60mm and 105mm macro lenses, provide a nice functional extension to the M. When shooting models, I'll usually combine film and digital (Nikon D1), and I've added the M to the mix a couple of times. But, the operational differences are enough to be somewhat cumbersome during such a shoot.

In contrast, when headed to the field, I find the M and my Toyo 45AX field camera to be a natural combination - in part due to the similarity of thoughtful operation of both systems. My Hasselblad kit is seeing less use of late.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), May 31, 2002.

Hassy SWC. one body, one damn great lens-perhaps the best lens for civilian use ever offered. perfection designed in the 50's and not possible to improve (new 905).

If you blow her budget by splurging on a rollie/mammy/hassy set, albeit for the same $$$ or lesser. tell her quality not quantity, just like the blood/de beers/war funding diamond.

-- steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

Don't get started down THAT path.

-- Willhelmn (wmitch3400@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

Gulley, do you see all the positive answers you get here from your post? No matter what you do, stick to Leica so that you can benefit even more from this helpful forum in the future. R something? M7?

-- Olivier (olreiche@videotron.ca), May 31, 2002.

Linhof M 679cc

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), May 31, 2002.

I don't know how much you spent on the ring but if you want HER to have positive feelings about her very generous offer I would recommend you spend much less on your new camera system. To spent as much will imply to HER a lack of love and respect.

-- Doug from Tumwater (dbaker9128@aol.com), May 31, 2002.

Anything Linhof, Alpa 6x9, Rollie, or if you really want to kick but...5x7 or 8x10 or larger.

-- Emile de Leon (Knightpeople@msn.com), May 31, 2002.

Just to confuse you further...

If you're looking at medium format, have you considered a Mamiya 7II and a couple of lenses? It's like a Leica on steroids. Huge negative, wonderful lenses, portable, nice ergonomics, and great viewfinder/rangefinder.

-- Hadji (hadji_singh@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

Ooops. I can't read. Noah already mentioned the Mamiya 7II. Sorry.

-- Hadji (hadji_singh@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

First, let me agree totally with Gulley that the cost of a diamond ring is disgusting considering all it does is just sit there like the lump of carbon it is. Let me disagree totally with Doug that you should under-spend the cost of the ring. Ring's are her thing and cameras are yours. Marriage should be a 50-50 split but believe me it never works out that way. This may well be your last chance to break even.

That said, I would not throw more money into 35mm film-based equipment unless a digital body is already a reality which can use the lenses. The reason the R8 has stopped selling is the R system is (so far) heading up a dead-end street. If a digital R body existed, or was even confirmed by Leica as "in the works", more people would feel better about buying into the system.

If your interests lie in wildlife and nature photography, a Canon EOS system would be much better than a Nikon F5. Canon's vast lineup of Image Stabilization lenses far exceeds Nikon's VR (one so-so zoom and one which is still unreleased), and in the shorter lenses the USM autofocus has always been faster and quieter than Nikon's screwdriver- drive. The 45-point AF sensor array in the 1V and 1D is a quantum leap farther than the F5's 5-sensor arrangement.

OTOH, if your interests lie in landscape photography, then a medium- format or even large format would be better. Neither format will soon be eclipsed by digital capture--at least, not *affordably*. I am a personal fan of Hasselblad. To me most of the others are cheaper copies. Mamiya's are very plasticky. I would avoid the Rollei's because they are very hard to resell whereas Hassy and Mamiya fly off the shelf. I prefer 6x6 to the rectangular formats, but if I went rectangular I'd go up to 6x9 rather than across to 6x7 or down to 6x4.5. MF rangefinders are limited by lens speed, close- focus distance, and limited DOF which you need to guess at. A view or SLR camera is more user-friendly.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 31, 2002.

Another vote for medium format, and for Hasselblad in particular. While the M6TTL continues to be my "go to" camera, I recently added a Hassy 501CM to my arsenal, and I find that the 6x6 is a nice complement to the Leica. For me, the 501CM has the same character that I appreciate in the Leica: a solid, well-built, precision instrument . . . all manual (and no batteries).

If you go the medium format route, take a look at some of the rebates/incentives Hasselblad is offering right now (which, I think, expire at the end of June). I did a lot of research on Hasselblad vs. Rollei, and went with the Hassy.

Congratulations on the engagement . . . it sounds like you have chosen wisely!

-- Jim Reed (jimreedpc@aol.com), May 31, 2002.

I would suggest you first consider what you want to do and then figure out what equipment is best suited to helping you do that. Another way of putting it: what, if anything, do you feel limited in doing with your M kit?

-- David Enzel (dhenzel@vei.net), May 31, 2002.

Jay. I disagree. An engagement ring is a tradition dating back a great many years. What you consider a lump of carbon may be very important to someone else. On the other hand it is not customary to receive an expensive camera as an engagement gift.

I say get a top of the line Holga system. :-)

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), May 31, 2002.

without taking a position on the relative value of a camera wersus an engagement ring, for sentimental reasons for your wife's benefit, you might consider the following guidelines.

1. make sure it is something that you will use. while she may be understanding of a $4000 camera system that you cherish enjoy and use on a regular basis, she will be less understanding if it sits in the closet and catches dust. if you are married to you M system, be realistic on how much you will use your new system. please understand that many on this forum shoot in excess of 1000 rolls of film a year.

2. make sure it is something that will last and not become obsolete in a few years. you do not want to establish a tradition of return and exchange. (gee honey i would just love to get a bigger diamond)

a few random thoughts:

3. both the hasselblad and the rollie are excellent cameras, but after hauling around an M system, this is a major lifestyle change.

4. while digital may be the wave of the future, the life expectancy of a digital camera is less than three years before it becomes obsolete. all computer products fall into the same category. this might make it less actractive as a wedding present.

5. medium format is more expensive to shoot and develop. with the continued improvement of film, more wedding photographers are shooting 35mm. a bad negative looks just as bad at 6x6 as it does at 35mm.

6. if you can get a nice portrait setup that you can use to shoot your wife it is a bonus that will flatter her.

7. medium format photographers seem to fall into one of 4 general systems depending upon their needs and styles, they are rangefinders such as the bronica 645, and the mamiy 7II, 645 slr autofocus cameras that handle like large 35mm such and the contax and the mamiya 645 af, 6x6 cameras suchas the hasselblad and the rollieflex, and 6x7 cameras such as the mamiya rz67.

FWIW if it was me in some order I would get.

A. a second M body probably a late , over 1.1 million mint M3, and then get a good CLA. a timeless classic which you will never tire of and can eventually pass on to your children. i would add to that either a 28 f2.0 or the 75 summilux. of all you options this will probably get the most use.

B. a leica R6.2. it is a nice compact camera that compliments the m system quite well. I would pick up a nice portrait lens to go with this. i shoot my R6.2 with a 90 f2.8 as a standard lens.

C. a mamiya 7II. see previous posts. this is a nice landscape camera, but is less effective for portrait work. most of the people that i know who have a mamiya 7II also have another MF system.

D. I would not get a pro AF camera, if you are really set on your M then it just won't get enough use. I have one and it is under utilized, however i purchased it and an 80-200 f2.8 zoom lens when my children started playing sports since it cant be beat for that purpose.

good luck and congratulations

-- greg mason (gmason1661@aol.com), May 31, 2002.

I respect Jay's advice on cameras but Gulley his bit about fiances and wives = DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! I'd get a second M body. Now if the budget is really expected to be a lot more than that add a Lux 75 to take her portrait. Get the picture?

-- Tim Gee (twg@optushome.com.au), June 01, 2002.

Why not just get something quirky like the tiny M3 miniature camera? Fun and more of a memento than a regular camera. Something special.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), June 01, 2002.

Eliot and Tim, I respect your opinions but I'm fortunate I found someone who shares my views, otherwise I'd rather be single to this day. When I see how much money some of my friends' wives burn on clothing, shoes, home furnishings, costume jewelry and various salon services ($35 to have someone cut their toenails for them!)it gives me hives. My wife looks as good or better than they do but she understands the concept of *value*, i.e. how much something is worth both in terms of cost:functionality and resale. The diamond engagement ring she has worn for the past 22 years was the same one my grandmother wore for more than 60 years, and we were married on the same date, for luck. So much for either of us lacking in sentimentality. I think Gulley's fiancee is truly a rare gem, I hope he fully realizes how fortunate he is, and I believe she would not be hurt or offended in the least no matter how he chooses to take her up on her offer. I had a ton of Leica and other high-end photo gear long before I met my wife, and she has never tried to get me to give up buying and selling it. She and Gulley's future wife I'm sure are happier to have us indulge in Leicas as opposed to spending even a fraction of that money on gambling, liquor or other women.

But I do like the idea of using the new camera to make some beautiful portraits of her.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), June 01, 2002.

Gulley: What about an R8 with the 100mm F/2.8 Macro so that you can take pictures of your fiancee's ring!! I am only kidding, but I have found the R8 to be an exquisite and reliable tool. If you don't require AF, then you should seriously consider it. I would get the above mentionned 100mm F/2.8 as well as the 80-200 F/4 or the 180mm F2.8. A 2X APO will also be very useful. This system will COMPLEMENT you M giving you macro and telephoto capability. If your fiancee's budget is limited, I know that Ken has many of the above mentionned bodies and lenses second hand. Congratulations on your engagement.

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), June 01, 2002.

the whole reason with an engagement gift is to give something that will last your entire life. The only 35mm equipment that can and will do that is Leica. End of story. Either trade up for a M7, or get a Noctilux etc.

Camera choice - depends on what you want to do. All the answers provided above.

My take - the PERFECT gentleman engagement present is a high end watch. It is the ULTIMATE male gift, the only jewelry a man wears (accept engagement ring) and it is a tradition in several countries. If you are the sporty type, a Rolex Submariner is a classic choice (unfortunatly tainted by yuppies and noveau riches, but still the first ever dive/sport watch and the bench mark still today). Other nice sport watches comes from IWC. Dress wise: Blancpain, Patek, Ulysse Nardin and others.

A high end mechanical classical Swiss watch is something you will cherrish your entire life and something you can pass on to your future son. You already have a great 35mm combo, everything else will get killed by digital.

Congrats on your engagement! Now, buy her plenty of flowers (lillys) and say the magic words. As often as you can.

cheers,

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), June 01, 2002.

i got my basic m6 kit as a graduation present from my parents. thay told me i could get whatever camera i want, so i went for one which will stay as outdated as it is today for the next 50 years. it's not a fancy fashion object. something which willserve me as a memory item for the years to come. and a pretty useful one too.

so therefore i would go for some modern classics, like a hasselblad 501 or an alpa or so. it should be more than a toy. or what about a leica 0-serie?

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), June 01, 2002.

Pat, you forgot the A. Lange & Sohne make. The 1815 is particularly a nice simple gorgeous dress watch. Check'em all out on www.timezone.com. Patek is very nice as well. You may want to go the watch route as it is a more normal engagement type gift. Although a Hasselblad would be nice.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

Pat: The best of the Swiss watches are undoubtedly those made by Patek-Philippe. Ask any jeweller and they will confirm this. The sporty Nautilus is indestructible and the more formal watches such as the Calatrava and the repeaters are works of art. The Nautilus goes quite well with the chrome M6 or 7!!!

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), June 01, 2002.

Patek probably has the finest made movements on the planet. Lange is probably close behind, and who knows what's 3rd, 4th, etc.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

What about a Rolleiflex TLR. Larger negative, quiet (no mirror), excellent lens quality, it can take take portraits of the mrs.(no viewfinder blackout just like your rangfinder), yet compact enough to work along side your M6 and if you wanted to get a new one you could certaintly drop a lot of $$$$ :) A much more elegant camera than a F5 or some new digital...IMHO

-- Jason Eitelbach (JEitelbach@aol.com), June 01, 2002.

What about a Rolleiflex TLR. Larger negative, quiet (no mirror), excellent lens quality

What a good idea and not obvious when you are taking a photo.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), June 01, 2002.

Gulley--

This is a minefield. It is not good to establish a quid pro quo in gift giving, especially at such an early stage. Gifts are given out of love, not in exchange.

Tell her that if she will marry you, that is the greatest gift of all, and let it go at that. What you sacrifice in camera gear will be more than offset in good vibes.

If she really wants to spend money, have her put it toward a nice honeymoon that you both can enjoy.

Just the $.02 contribution of a divorced photographer.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), June 01, 2002.

P.S. --

If you have to ask us what camera to get next, you probably don't need another one!

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), June 01, 2002.

don't get me started on wathces... yes, patek is in a league of its own, but Lange and a few other makes first class mechanical watches. I have some stories to tell, but perhaps this is the wrong forum

cheers,

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), June 01, 2002.

I got a great deal on a Timex Expedition at Campmor. $19.95 and they even threw in a genuine leather band! But I only wear it when using my Nikons [or wallpapering the bathroom].

-- John (mymacv@aol.com), June 01, 2002.

Okay, this may seem heavy, but whatever you want and/or get -- as re Leicas etc etc -- your life coupled with her isn't going to depend on what she gives you (and what you give her) as a present beforehand.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), June 02, 2002.

Jay says: " ... we were married on the same date, for luck." That's a coincidence, so were we but it was more for convenience than luck. :-)

Gulley, why don't you consider something really different, like a Minox 8x11? It's an exquisite piece of jewellery and you can take it anywhere, just like an engagement ring. It's just as useless too! (The devil made me say that; I now expect incoming from Martin) ;-)

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), June 04, 2002.

Use the money for a trip to an exotic location which will enable you to use your Leica to its fullest capability and also please your wife for unselfishly taking her on a trip. I suggest Isle Mujeres off Cancun. I great bang for the buck and great for leica street photography: or Cozumel or Playa Del Carma. All great shoots and unless your wife is allergic to salt water and a great time she will love it!

-- John Elder (celder2162@aol.com), June 04, 2002.