Put yourself in my position...

You have the chance of a mint (perhaps unused) M4-P at a fair price. You also have a mortgage that could do with having a few lumps taken out of it.

Now - what would YOU do? Or is it obvious, as you're on this forum?

-- Paul Hart (paulhart@blueyonder.co.uk), June 01, 2002

Answers

"Or is it obvious?"

Good point. What do you think is obvious?......I bet you know.

Do what's best for the greater good, and when the time is right to reward yourself, you'll know.

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

Is the price of an M4-P going to make much difference to your mortgage? On the other hand, taking a few lumps out of your mortgage might contribute to your peace of mind.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), June 01, 2002.

Life is short. Buy the camera. Your next-of-kin can worry about the mortgage.

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), June 01, 2002.

John is right, you can't take either with you, and your relatives will not be worried either way...

-- Kevin Baker (kevin@thebakers.org), June 01, 2002.

Inflation will increase and take care of the value of your mortgaged property. The M4-P will simply take care of you.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

Low ball the camera, and see if you can get it at an "unfair" price. The other person may need money more than you do. Then it will be good for both of you. If you can't get a lower price, steel your resolve and walk away from it. Use the money then to smooth out those mortgage lumps. But, if by "lumps" you mean you're behind on payments, by all means fix that first. Mortgage payments are a fundamental expense, and creditors frown on those who can't keep up with the basics of living. There are plenty of Ms out there, but it only take one crappy credit report to tag you as a credit risk.

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), June 01, 2002.

obviously no one here has a mortgage, I do, pay it first, thats what PRIORITY means. Work to save for the M4, dont steal it away from the seller, some day we are all sellers, do we want (or like?) that? doing what right is just that, doing whats right, take it from me, I KNOW!

-- mike (thearea19@aol.com), June 01, 2002.

I'm with Mike...what PRIORITY means...M4-P's are always for sale, nothing to get worked up over, and from what I gather it wouldn't be your first Leica. Let's put it this way, would you want to be saddled with a new M4-P when everyone wants metered cameras and there are so many M6's etc on the market right now? Now if it were a black M2... ;-)

-- Carlin (carlinm@abac.com), June 01, 2002.

If you're in the USA and you're talking about paying cash ahead on your mortgage I'd say buy the Leica. Mortgage interest is tax- deductible and housing generally appreciates enough to repay that interest tax-free. Early prepayment is not sound tax practice and in fact some mortgages actually have *penalties* for prepayment. However if you're behind in your payments, as others have said, it's a no-brainer that the camera has to take a back seat.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), June 01, 2002.

I would pay down the mortgage, assuming you already have camera equipment you like and use.

-- David Enzel (dhenzel@vei.net), June 01, 2002.

pay your house. a wise friends's dad told us back when we were 17-18 that if you want to buy some type of gadget/toy, always pay cash but only when you have the double amount of cash available - obviously the guy wasn't Yoda, but the bottom line "toys" like Leica gear, a 68 Mustang Convertible, a Rolex - what have you - always end up costing more than you think.

I would never use my last dollars to buy camera gear (of course I'm speaking from the standpoint of a happy amateur)

cheers,

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), June 01, 2002.

Hey, look at it this way: you can use that M4-P to take a picture of your house to remember it by...after the bank takes it away from you. ;>)

-- Dennis (couvilaw@aol.com), June 01, 2002.

if it boils down to those 2 choices. you ALWAYS choose the mortgage.

two words: credit history

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

"Mint (perhaps unused)" means it will probably need a CLA...

-- John Collier (jbcollier@shaw.ca), June 01, 2002.

Or you could just sell the house and live out of a back-pack... Then think of how many M4-P's -- and even M7's and all of the exotic Leica glass -- you could own!

Of course you'd have nowhere to store them, they would start to get heavy in the pack, and they would also get beat up in the pack and evetually become worthless. Then in about three years, you'd be left sitting on a rock with a worthless pile of M gear, wondering how much that house you sold would be worth today.

Duhhhhhhhhhhh.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), June 01, 2002.

DAMN THE TORPEDOES, FULL SPEED AHEAD!

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

Thanks for your varied and often amusing advice. For those concerned about my financial state, I'm happily up to date with my regular mortgage payments! I just like to pay an extra 'lump' off occasionally, but it's so boring compared with certain other things...

-- Paul Hart (paulhart@blueyonder.co.uk), June 01, 2002.

JEEZE O PEEZ O! You're talking paying extra? Bad move at todays' lower interest rates. By all means GET THE LEICA. Way, WAAAAAAY more fun. Still, you should try to get it at the best price possible. If you're buying direct you're saving the seller at least 20% they'd have to shell out to a dealer to sell it on consignment. Bet if YOU went to sell it, few would rush forward to give you the best price possible. But in all honesty, if it's a fair price then grab it and skip the bad investment of advanced mortgage payments..

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), June 01, 2002.

i don't get the part about "it's a bad investment to pay mortgage in advance." YOU AVOID THE INTEREST, you pay more on the principal, therefore, the earlier you finish the loan...how can THAT be a bad investment?!

anyways, if you have extra money to pay mortgage in advance, you can certainly afford that leica. otherwise, pay the mortgage...no brainer.

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

On a purely economic basis, the answer is clear -- debt against an appreciating asset (a house) is leverage that works in your favor, especially if you're in the U.S. and your mortgage interest is deductible. Furthermore, inflation is likely to get somewhat worse (my guess), which would make a Leica more expensive in the future and increase your theoretical gain on your house.

On the other hand, I don't believe that most people think about their houses is purely economic terms. I know I don't, otherwise I would be increasing my mortgage rather than paying it down ahead of schedule.

The bottom line -- think seriously about which path would make you feel better in 6 months, and then do that.

-- Ben Crabtree (bcrabtree@mn.rr.com), June 01, 2002.

You really need to look carefully at the wording in your mortgage agreement, or have an attorney look at it and advise you. Some mortgages have set amounts of interest to be paid over the life of it and extra "lump" payments get applied against that first rather than principal. And as I mentioned, some mortgages levy penalties for early pay-off. Another thing to look at is the real-dollar impact of using after-tax cash to reduce pre-tax (deductible) interest. That's something which is specific to each individual depending on your income, investments, interest rates and tax situation, and I would strongly suggest consulting a tax professional such as a C.P.A. for a definitive answer. The question of paying down a mortgage is like "which Leica body and lens should I get?". What works for me might work against you and vice-versa.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), June 01, 2002.

On a serious note, I certainly agree wirh Jay; however, you also have to factor in your age and the principal remaining to be paid. We did, and paying off the remaining principal made sense. On a facetious note, you can always sell your firstborn, and then use the proceeds to pay off the mortgage and buy an M7 with all the lenses .

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), June 01, 2002.

Geez, if you follow the advice here you'll spend all of your money on bankers, lawyers and accountants.

Just buy the camera and enjoy it.

-- Jeffrey (itsme@livealittle.com), June 01, 2002.

Look at it another way - how many months can you postpone eviction/foreclosure by passing on the camera purchase and using the money for home payments? In my part of the world, it's less than two months for the matchbox I live in so I figured the heck with it and bought the M4-P. If you have enough money for home payments, buy the M4-P and have a ball. You can always sell the camera to pay down the mortgage later.

-- Fred Sun (redsky3@yahoo.com), June 01, 2002.

Paul: Be wise and pay down your mortgage now. Get the Leica when you have the expendable cash...

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), June 01, 2002.

Buy the Leica! If a couple of hundred dollars means the difference between keeping and loosing your house you're in serious trouble (And yes I have a mortgage). I have far too many friends who have nice houses, nearly paid for, but have boring lives because all their money goes to the house. Life is to enjoy - it should not be a burden.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), June 01, 2002.

Enjoy, life is short there are always bills.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), June 01, 2002.

Depends entirely on what kind of mortgage you have in the UK. Chances are it is a "table loan" for a set period. Paying off your loan early will definitely save you thousands of pounds in the long run -- money you can spend on yourself later on. Why pay the bank more than you have to? Depends how long you have to go on your mortgage though. No point subsisting on bread and water for decades. Also depends on how innovative your bank/finance company is. Some have revolving credit. Fixed or floating rate? It may be worth changing your mortgage to get a better deal. In any case, there are some good books out there on how to save money on your mortgage which might like to read.

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), June 01, 2002.

OK - now I've heard from the accountants, the leicaphiles, the realists, the escapists, the lot....here's what I've done...

I've not bought the M4-P: after all, why spend three quarters of the price of an M7 on an M without metering, let alone AE??

But just in case you mistakenly think I am sensible and wise, I have bought a 24mm ASPH to compliment my collection - it sits nicely between my CV 12mm and my 35mm Summicron ASPH.

-- Paul Hart (paulhart@blueyonder.co.uk), June 01, 2002.

"would you want to be saddled with a new M4-P when everyone wants metered cameras and there are so many M6's etc"

Why not? Leica script, brass top plate, no silly 2 extra mm in height, recessed finder windows, no mirror strips across the viewfinder, no breaks in the 28/35 framelines, 50/75 framelines that cannot be confused with one another...

Good thing you at least got the 24, Paul.

"Leicas will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no Leicas."

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), June 01, 2002.

Andy. Not that it matters much, but I thought that the M4-P has a zinc alloy top plate, not brass. BTW, my M4-P, which is a very late version, has the flush windows (not recessed), like the M6. Earlier M4-Ps (the majority) have recessed windows. I'm not going to weigh in on mortgages. My expertise is in Leicas. But I will say that the M4-P is a great camera.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), June 02, 2002.

Paul:

This note is post purchase, but I would like to weigh in with some observations. Earlier, a comment was posted about spending all of your money on "Accountants, Bankers and Lawyers", most of these have spoken as friends and associates in previous posts, for no financial compensation. In general, the PROFESSIONALS, in whatever field are in favor of paying down the mortgage, as I did. After you pay off the mortgage in fewer years (14 vs 30), you can use the interest you didn't pay to finance your whims later in life, as well as sooner in life and still have more available cash.

Enjoy your new gear.

')

-- Mark Johnson (logical1@catholic.org), June 02, 2002.

Eliot: I believe the zinc and the flush-mount windows go hand-in-hand due to zinc being less ductile - Leica couldn't reproduce the recesses once they went to zinc.

My 4-P is fairly early (#155xxx) - brass top, recessed windows. But absolutely at some point prior to the introduction of the M6 the 4-P started using zinc.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), June 02, 2002.

LIFE IS HARD, THEN YOU DIE

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), June 02, 2002.