Does anyone know how many countries are using children as soldiers to wage their wars? How many children are enlisted as soldiers? How can a society train children to kill? The Lord must see this as an abomination. Jesus said: unless you become like children..... But what sense have His words in this situation?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 02, 2002

Answers

--@--

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 02, 2002.

Jmj

I wish that I could answer your questions well, Enrique, but my knowledge is not great.
I decided to reply simply because I could remember only two cases of child soldiers -- both cases of utter desperation, when the leaders involved were/are non-Christian:
(1) Hitler's Nazi Germany in 1944-1945
(2) modern Palestinian guerrillas
[I think that modern Iran and/or Iraq may have used kids as "cannon fodder" in their 1980-1990 war.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 02, 2002.

Enrique-- John, et al:
We have a first ''boy warrior'' recorded in the Scripture. This was David, the shepherd lad; and his sling. Didn't do poorly, either.

Enrique is surely familiar with the Ninos Heroes, forever famous in Mexico's history books. (There's a sad aspect to their heroism; as they committed a mass suicide. Yet, they were defenders of their country.) We must feel sorrow anyway, for the lost innocence of boys caught up in wars they hardly even understand.

The suicide bombers of Palestine are dupes. The devil must rejoice in these offerings to his altar of Molloch. Babes thrown into the flames of war. Of course, they're called great martyrs even by their fanatical parents. The devil works in the undercurrents of this ''jihad''.

I'm particularly appalled and frightened about one evil fact. It's hardly realised by most observers and even some military strategists. If a people sacrifice (sinfully) one victim with explosives powerful enough to kill scores of Israeli civilians, and maim or cripple many more--

This is equivalent to a pinpoint ''surgical bombardment'' from enemy aircraft. The Palestinians may send one of these boys (and girls too) every week or so-- and decimate the Israeli population in just a few years. They intend to do it, from all indications.

No commander in the field can afford to lose 30 or more of his troops at a time, and only claim one death of the enemy's in return. This is a ratio of 30-1 losses. In present-day Israel, the population is entirely at risk; with cripples and dead bodies multiplying weekly. And their opponents are losing ONE boy for each attack! Is this a victory, or isn't it?

And Satan can produce many more of them where they came from. That fanatical ''religion'' is more deadly than biological or nuclear weapons. It gives them a numerical advantage on the battlefield. Fanatical children; killing their enemies indiscriminately in buses and pizza restaurants, without warning, or air-raid sirens, or even a military build-up as we know it in our own society ! This is really the devil's playground. We have to PRAY for mercy. And, for the return of Jesus Christ our King and Judge!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 03, 2002.

John just about every conflict involving developing nations from Vietnam to Somalia has involved child fighters, it is certainly not limited to the two countries you mentioned. It is unfortunate that your words have encouraged the local village idiot to pipe up with his razor sharp analysis of the Palestinian conflict. It is not often that he turns his critical skills to political issues. Now we can see why. It was even worse than I feared. Gene please stop embarrasing yourself.

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 03, 2002.

My apologies! OK, Kiwi. Take the floor and give us all our come-uppance. I like that: Village Idiot. Great analysis, Kiwi. Speedy, a village idiot surrenders to the Golem Kiwi Shrink. Nothing wrong with beating up on the village idiot. It shows your character.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 03, 2002.

Hello, Gene.

I must of missed reading some posts. Why is Kiwi so angry with you? I read it on other posts as well. I read on another thread where she is talking about you getting 'sexual gratification" in this forum.

Is calling you "Speedy" suppoose to be a racial cutdown?

David

-- David (David@excite.com), June 03, 2002.

We don't care, do we? Speedy is a good name. I'm not complaining. Kiwi is happy calling me that. OK by me.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 04, 2002.

Gene,
Your recollection of the shepherd lad, David (who really may not have been a minor), made me remember a saint whose feast we recently celebrated -- Joan or Arc (who really was a minor when she led troops).

Kiwi, I see that you have gone back to the "handle" that you started with here. You must not have realized that we ignorant North Americans are not familiar with the name "Courtenay." We rarely come across a "Courtney," but never a "Courtenay" (an aristocratic British name, right?).

You are a man, aren't you? It's not quite clear to us, because "Kiwi" is ambiguous and most "Courtneys" we bump into are female. But I figure that you are a man because you recently were embarrassed about leaving some offensive posts when you were bombed (a thing not likely for a woman to do). Is it possible that you again had a few too many when you decided to insult Gene Chavez as "Speedy," the "local village idiot"? Kiwi, should he call you a "fruit" maybe (as in "kiwi fruit")?
Well, Kiwi, you made a mistake in insulting Gene. There is NO ONE at this forum who has had more arguments with him than I have, but I will not stand by silently and let you think that you are even one half the man that he is or that you have one quarter the intellect or that you have one tenth the faith and virtue as this "village idiot" has.

Courtenay, I hope that you feel properly chastised and will wait until you earn the right to be critical of people (if you will ever earn it).

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 04, 2002.

David Gene has been digging at me ever since I posted that I thought Jean was wonderful.

I responded in the very worst possible fashion, pure muck flinging- quite vile and evil stuff. Im dont normally resort to such tactics and Im actually quite ashamed. Its not the first time Ive expressed such outbursts on this forum,which I find (and Im sure others find) rather disturbing.I find this place such a rollercoaster one minuite Im crying with joy the next Im all in a rage. It wont happen again.

-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 04, 2002.

"I will not stand by silently and let you think that you are even one half the man that he is or that you have one quarter the intellect or that you have one tenth the faith and virtue as this "village idiot" has."

Fair enough, youre entitled to your view and I take your criticisms on board. I have never laid claim to strengths in such areas as intelligence and faith. Indeed I consider myself very weak in these areas. I do consider myself honest and direct and normally repectfull of other people. I take some youthful satisfaction that in all likelyhood I would be your physical superior in anything, so thats my my real strength, brawn! So youve got me: Im honest, brave,respectful, faithless(well sort of), strong and yes not that bright but...

where I see lies being perpetrated and misinformation thrown about like yours and Genes in this thread-I will respond. I will be respectful and humble but you will not stop me offering my opinions and frankly your asserstions that I should are not logical to me. Please correct me if I am wrong but dont just gag me- fair enough?

So Gene I disagree with yours(and Johns post on the Palestine and Germany). I happen to think what you have both written is simply false. I will not stand by and see such misinformation and lies be written without at least offering another view! The world is not as absolute as you make like, at least not to these eyes(albiet stupid eyes)

I will not try and highlight the many grave historical and present day attrocities being committed by Israelis against the Palesitian peoples(this after all is a Catholic forum, as you are so keen to point out when Jean offers his pearls).

Body counts are not a way to measure who is winning a war(anyone remember Vietnam?)or who the moral winners or losers are but I thought this might interest you Gene...

"The latest deaths bring to 1,577 the number of people killed since the Palestinian intifada, or uprising, erupted in September 2000, including 1,198 Palestinians and 355 Israelis."

Posted: 8:22 PM (Manila Time) | Mar. 24, 2002 Agence France-Presse

God Bless and Yours humbly Courtenay

-- Kiwi Male (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 04, 2002.

Dear Courtenay
It's very fine of you to make civil gestures after the last offenses. I hope this means we can be friendly.

I also wish to clean the slate. It seems my earlier posts struck you as too mean-spirited, all of a bad-natured tone. I was probably to blame; having no qualms about hurting some folks' feelings there for a time. I do over-react very often.

As John Gecik knows, I tend to over-work sometimes. I regret how all too often I'll justify my position because of my love for the faith. Or my emphasis on being HOT, not lukewarm. I have to give you credit for not being cold nor a lukewarm character, Courtenay. That's why I likened you to the ''golem''. Tell you what. I AM something of the golem around here. --Ha!

Thanks, John. You are never lacking in Christian charity; I'll say it for you before the judgment seat.

Having said that all --what is this? --

Kiwi's words '' . . . where I see lies being perpetrated and misinformation thrown about like yours and Gene's in this thread -I will respond. I will be respectful and humble but you will not stop me offering my opinions.'' Oh?

I never lied, Sir. I don't think so. If I've spread some misunderstanding? Of what? Let's get it out for a closer inspection.

If you didn't already know this, I have great sympathy for the Palestinian CAUSE. I do realise these people were disenfranchised unjustly in the past. I stated that quite a while back.

But as the world presently exists, you couldn't remedy it anymore. Unless Israel were ''transported'' lock, stock and barrel. Lifted out of the Holy Land and plunked down in the neighborhood of Manhattan, or Los Angeles.

It's impossible. Instead, we have the dilemma of these terrorist nightmares.

I commented on the HORRORS of the ''body counts'' in Israel. I haven't approved of anything at all! Not the way they've come to happen. This is only the beginning, I stated; and it's a cause for great fear.

Even in New York City etc., on Sept 11th-- close to five thousand dead compared to a few dozen ''holy martyrs'' for the Jihad? What would a military commander say, if he lost 5,000 men to the enemy's 40 or 50? My own feeling would be of sheer helplessness.

Didn't I SAY; Let's PRAY??? Is this a lie, or an error?

When I lay the blame on a false prophet, and on fanaticism, do you suppose I'm lying? Would YOU strap a plastic explosives girdle around your teenage son's belly, and send him to a mall somewhere to blow up the stores in the name of Allah? What have I said; --which words should I take back?

You always have a right to state an opinion, if it's not unfair to the faith of the Catholic Church, Kiwi. If it becomes abusive to our faith, all bets are off. Is that a deal?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 04, 2002.

Gene The final count lost in the Sept 11 terror campaign is more like 3,000 lives lost. At least it is far below 4,000.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 04, 2002.

Found this article:

Get News by Email Print This Article Email This Article

Sept 11 death toll revised From AAP

THE official number of victims in the September 11 attacks on New York's World Trade Centre has dropped to 2,940, officials said.

The revised count brings the total dead and missing from the attacks to 3,173.

The previous count, established six days ago, was at 3,225 dead and missing.

The latest decrease came after officials again revised downward to 2,940 the number of dead and missing at the World Trade Centre, as duplicate names were verified and removed from lists, city officials said.

They said three bodies were pulled from the rubble of the twin towers today, bringing the total number recovered by rescue workers to 573.

The 110-story towers collapsed after being struck by hijacked airliners.

The revised toll also includes 189 people killed in the attack by a third plane on the Pentagon, outside Washington, and 44 on board a fourth plane that crashed in a field in Pennsylvania.

AAP

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 04, 2002.

I forgot to mention the previous article is dated around May 31, 2002.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 04, 2002.

Enrique~I don't think His words there make ANY sense in this situation you speak of, actually. From all of the reading I have done, it is my understanding that Jesus didn't mean to LITERALLY be as children when we come to Him. He meant in a way that children are so full of trust. As children, we rely on adults (our parents, etc) in our life to take care of us. It is, to a child, a given. They do not wonder if there will be food on the table that night (well, most don't anyways) or concern themselves with how much money their parents make, if there will be a tomorrow, etc. They trust their parents to take care of everything for them. Do you know that I didn't even know how I liked my meat cooked until I was about twenty years old?! My mother always ordered for me. We allow our parents to take care of us and provide for us because we do not know any different. But as we grow, we become self sufficient and learn to do things on our own. We learn that we don't really need our parents anymore as we can do these things ourselves. And for many, we don't even equate God into this scenario. God doesn't need to take care of me for I can take care of myself. But this is where He WANTS us to be like a child again. To learn to rely on Him. To go to Him in our hour of need. To trust that no matter what happens in this life, He will always take care of us.

Don't get me wrong, though. I know our Lord has the utmost love for the little ones. It's all throughout scripture. But in the case you speak of, I try so hard to remember something. Free will. There are times when I wish so badly that something will not happen but then I have to think...it is out of my hands. And His, too, for that matter. For men will do what they want, as they have free will. And He can't take that away. We can try as a society to do away with the horrible practice of making children into soldiers, though, of course. Little by little. Look at the child labor laws we have here in the U.S. Unfortunately, though, it just isn't that way for many parts of the world. I guess all we can really do is pray and try somehow to make a difference. In whatever way we can.

God Bless~

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), June 04, 2002.

Your posting, Fred --and for Courtenay's consideration:

''The official number of victims in the September 11 attacks on New York's World Trade Centre has dropped to 2,940, officials said. The revised count brings the total dead and missing from the attacks to 3,173.''

What about it? You don't even ask about the Pentagon casualties, or about how many were blinded, maimed or crippled. It's not a matter of simple numbers.

My attention was to the disparity-- as if ONE bomb were dropped from a plane. You can't possibly tell us that the ''holy martyrs, (all 40 of them--! ) were a fair exchange for that many American deaths and casualties?

Particularly significant is this: No one in the NYC towers was waging war on the Al Quaida, or on any Muslim country. All were innocent victims.

The people killed by terrorist bombers in Israel are usually civilians and unsuspecting bystanders. Lots of them kids or elderly people. (Even if some people wish to number these innocent people as the oppressors of Palestinians.)

Anyway, don't stray from the point I'm making to Courtenay. He ought to show me where I've lied. Or as he stated before, why I was ''embarrassing myself'' in the statements I made.

And I want him to know: Jean Bouchard DOES lie. He does frequently make remarks that prove he's in sin, or turn out embarrassing to himself. --Yet, he thought Bouchard was ''wonderful''. Go figure.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 04, 2002.

I can only say this on the number of people killed inthe terror situation in this country, Afganistan, Pakistan, Israel and Palestine are nothing in comparison to the real issue of the ignorance of the value of human life that being is shown. Power is farmore important to these people than the dignity of life. I have a strong distaste for the many years of turmoil that has occurred and Pray daily that we can actually wake up someday to a real peace.

But as long as religious fanatics are allowed to exist the longer the turmoils will continue. A world of people who can understand the needs of others may never will exist. But we can all try. THANKS BE TO GOD.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 04, 2002.

Gene 9/11 is another issue altogeher I agree back to your original words To tar all of Islam as evil and fanatical is wrong and false. I dont know about you, but Ive lived in a Muslim country (Malaysia)and I learnt much from their faith. They didnt strike me as evil or fanatical.

I ask you to think about WHY would someone blow themsleves up for their faith and State, do they do it for fun and a bit of a laugh? I ask you to consider "This is equivalent to a pinpoint 'surgical bombardment'' from enemy aircraft" indeed it is I dont disagree but last time I checked your country was only giving such aircraft to one side. What other option do they have? desperate situations call for desperate responses.

You say that "In present-day Israel, the population is entirely at risk;" well now they will know how the Palestinian people have felt for deacdes. Gotta go I could rave on this for hours looks like we will have to disagree on this one. God Bless Courtenay

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 04, 2002.

The US supported Sudanese christians are the ones whose whole war is based on using children.

Ask Imaam Imam Sunnah Sunni Deobandi Islaam Islam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama" Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuda

Afghanistan News Sunnah Sunni Deobandi Islam Islaam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama" ar-Rasheed trust

Sunnah Deobandi Sunni Islam Islaam Kashmir Afghanistan Jihad Jihaad Chechnya Kosovo Awliya Sufiyah Sufi Soofi Sibghatullah Shah Pir Pagaro Sindh Punjab Balauchistan Balochistan Afghanistan Terror Terrorism War Militant Radical Extremist fanatic fundamentalist Sunni movement Special forces soldiers wahabi wahhaabi wahhabi Syedayn Shaheedayn Ambala Deoband Saharanpur Kandhla Thana bhawan Akora Khattak Balakot Hyderabad Karachi lyari MQM Hikayat Hikayaat peace spirit spiritual Waliullah wali saint worship veneration Sajda Ghairullah Ghayr Ghair Kufr Ilhaad Zanadaqah Wahdat ul Wajood Shahood Tassawuf Islaah Tazkiyah Nafs Shaytaan Satan Shaitan Zikr Dhikr Zakir Zaakir Dhaakir Abid Zahid Zuhd Istaghna Sabr "Safhaat min Sabr ul Ulama"

-- copy (copy@greenspun.com), July 28, 2002.

Moderator, this person is spamming all over the forum...

Just my $0.02,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 28, 2002.