I'm thinking about ordering a lens from Poon in Hong Kong. His prices are fabulous compared to the N.Y. mail order outfits, but I'm not sure I'd be geting the same quality product. Is this a legitimate be a concern?

-- David Geddes (d_geddes@pacbell.net), June 04, 2002

Answers

The quality of new Leica product is somewhat inconsistent but it has nothing to do with who you buy it from. If Poon is an *authorized Leica dealer* you will get an international warranty which will be honored in any country. If Poon is not an *authorized Leica dealer* then you would not be entitled to warranty service anywhere, unless Poon intervenes and sends it back through whatever *authorized Leica dealer* he buys his merchandise...which would involve sending it back to him in Hongkong at no small expense. Enquire as to whether he is an official Leica dealer or not.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), June 04, 2002.

No, there is no difference in Leica products if they are made by Leica. All produced by basically the same people. The only difference is the warranty protection you get and from whom.

Your question is good because many manufacturers, especially clothiers make different levels of quality for different sellers and markets. Some companies make lowend goods under their label specifically for the outlets. Such is not the case with Leica.

-- Bob Haight (rhaigh5748@aol.com), June 04, 2002.

I heard that they were carefully hand made copies made in small, leaky shops in the suburbs outside of Shanghai. Cheers.

-- Gil Pruitt (wgpinc@yahoo.com), June 04, 2002.

"I heard that they were carefully hand made copies made in small, leaky shops in the suburbs outside of Shanghai."

This is true. These are the rare "A" quality optics. They are great right out of the box. The vast majority of Leica lenses, all "B" grade, come from Solms, Germany. The B lenses tend to have dust, hairs and fingerprints inside and out and often have coarse or sticky focusing helicoils. Some don't lock on the camera bodies properly. Once cleaned up and/or returned to Leica for the recommended pre-use service, they work fine -- at least as well as the Sigma or Minolta lenses they're based on.

-- George (davecasman@yahoo.com), June 04, 2002.

David,

I understand your wanting to by "grey", the price is halved! A strong temptation.

What I would do is this. Buy it from him if he agrees that, out of the box, if you don't like it, you can return it for another one. They will do this for you at Delta International in NY (they don't want a bad rating on Photo Net), so just make sure he will exchange it no questions asked.

I've examined Leica lenses and camera from the Far East and from Authorized USA dealers and it seems to be exactly the same to me.

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), June 04, 2002.

David: Remember the old saying, "caveat emptor" and realize that while the lenses are all made in the same fashion in Solms, the quality cintrol may be lacking. Therefore, the international or especially the Leica USA passport guarranty is critical. It has saved me untold aggravation over the years.

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), June 04, 2002.

FWIW: I have talked to several folks who have bought from Poon and have been very happy with the speed and quality of the transaction. I have never used him personally however.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), June 04, 2002.

Good question. My answer has little information directly relating to the lenses, but has value as a similar situation.

When I was in New York for one year, my American colleauges would brag and show off their Italian suits, or Armani suits. I could never believe it because I had never seen a double breasted suit by any reputable Italian designer before; let alone the cut or colors of the materials. I then realized that my country produces two lines of clothing, shoes, etc. One for the style conscience home market and one to be exported.

I do not suggest that Leica does that, because they don't. I just think that it is interesting the way the companies perceive other markets.

-- Paolo (pandr_12@tiscali.it), June 04, 2002.

can anybody please post the web address of Poon? thanks.

-- rami (rg272@columbia.edu), June 04, 2002.

i bought my elmar at poon's. i can whole-heartly recommend him. the lens arrived in london after three days (did they beam it?) it was perfect right out of the box. there was a little mess up with duties, but poon payd unasked the difference.

it might be a bit of a warranty gamble, but for $480 opposed to the ~$850 you usually pay here in the UK it is definitely worth the risk. it came with an international warranty card.

robert white might be cheap, but poon rules the game. you can find him on ebay (http://www.stores.ebay.com/id=5360883)

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), June 04, 2002.

and usually the black and the chrome lenses share the same price. strangly the chrome ones are more expensive here in the UK.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), June 04, 2002.

Rami, His web site is: www hksupplies.com. I did not keep his e-mail address but he can be contacted through his site and e-bay. I bought a 40mm Distagon for 'blad last fall from him. Everything went well and I am very happy. He aslo promised to exchange the item if I found any problems; I did not find any. And the deal was fast. From HK to Ohio in four or five days, and no customs duites. Good luck, Igor

-- Igor Osatuke (visionstudios@yahoo.com), June 04, 2002.

Some here are saying with great certainty that Leica doesn't have "B" lenses, but how do you know? Are you just saying this because of their reputation, or do you have some other reason?

-- Nick Hillyer (nhillyer@fhcrc.org), June 04, 2002.

Well, I bought a grey market Leica 35mm f/2 titanium lens two weeks ago from the Far East and it was perfect, as was the black 'Lux 50mm f/1.4 I bought last year.

Perfect in every way, so.......

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), June 04, 2002.

steve -- the Ti lens to celebrate the amazing job you did on the most recent CCR releases?? your poster, by the way, was in several rooms at HE 2002. and you'll never believe the crazy things chad said!!! enjoy the lens.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), June 04, 2002.

Hey Roger,

So, you hung out with Chad, eh? Amazing guy, isn't he!

Yes, I treated myself to the Titanium 35 lens when the last Creedence title was mastered. I got the matching Titanium M6ttl as a gift, so I felt I could splurge on a matching lens. What the heck.

Sorry I didn't make it to the show!!!

Steve www.stevehoffman.tv

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), June 04, 2002.

David:

I have bought Leica stuff from an Official Leica Dealer in Hong Kong and there was nothing wrong with the product, but the distributor, Schmidt Scientific, was no end of grief and hassle when it came time to get a lens checked under warrantee for fogging after 6 months.

I have seen lots of Leica stuff here in the Orient and it is all as good as any other. Used stuff is often better because it is bought with resale to collectors in mind.

I live in Singapore and at the time the distributor in Sing and HK were the same, but the Sing guys wouldn't touch the lens without me paying US$300 up front to have it sent to Germany to determine IF it would be covered. If yes, then I would get my 300 back. If not, I was out the 300 AND the cost of cleaning. They said even tho' the distributor was the same the camera/lenses were bought in different cities-no deal.

I said I thought teh was a Passport warrantee and they laughed at me and said that applied only in the US to stuff bought there.

To make a long story short, I was so Pissed Off with the hassle and runaround, I later sold the M6 and lenses AT A LOSS and got a Hexar RF kit with all three lenses with no regrets whatsoever. [The distributor back home in Toronto (Kindermann at that time -since changed as I hear they could not stand dealing with Leica Solms) Jerry cleaned my lens for me in 5 minutes: no charge.]

The hassle and long Distance calls cost me more in real money and hassle than anything I saved by buying in HK.

I later bought an M6 and lenses used from dealers NOT connected with the distributors and am happy. Leica Solms declined to even acknowledge my E MAils regarding the hassle.

Buyer be very aware, as the dealer is not the distibutor!

My experience only.

Cheers

-- RICHARD ILOMAKI (richard.ilomaki@hotmail.comR), June 05, 2002.

David; I bought my Bessa R last year from Poon...I used paypal..I received the camera body from Hong Kong to the United States in 10 days..he even sent me a tracking number; which worked until the camera arrived at JFK...............The camera had no warranty papers but was only 300 dollars brand new; was aligned;and still works well......

I bought a old M Summicron on the same day from a guy in Texas on Ebay..The lens came in AFTER my bessa R....He stated the he had to wait several days (3 to 4) after receiving my PayPal payment....(Which is instant with my VISA)...The lens came in FedEx; in a box 12x18x2 the lens was ok but had little padding for the dinky 2" width.....



-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), June 05, 2002.

I've used Yao to buy 2 leica lenses w/o any problems. the lenses comes w/ 2 yrs int'l warranty that leica uSA HAVe TO respect - I paid less than $1,000 for a brand new 35/2 asph - I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

cheers,

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), June 05, 2002.

Kelly, what's up with the photos?

-- Hadji (hadji_singh@hotmail.com), June 05, 2002.

OT:

Kelly,

Uh, do I know you from somewhere? That Tandon TM848 floppy disk drive was one of the less memorable designs that I worked on.

-- David Geddes (dgeddes@jni.com), June 05, 2002.

Sorry for cluttering up the message board with this personal chatter, but I worked on the electrical design of that disk drive back in 1982. Having a picture of it pop up out of nowhere was quite a shock. It is an obsolete, unmemorable, and mostly forgotten product. What are the chances of someone who knew me back then seeing my name on this board, and then digging up a picture of that old boat anchor to post? Whew... Kelly, sorry, but I don't recognize your name. Could you refresh my memory? Please respond by email.

Now, back to the topic... (with my apologies)

-- David Geddes (dgeddes@jni.com), June 05, 2002.

I'm not even going to ask what Poon's last name is but does he have a web site or an e mail address? If so, what is it? Thanks.

-- Brian Ellis (bellis60@earthlink.net), June 05, 2002.

Please allow me to give you the correct answer to this. There are no A and B grade lenses. All lenses are equal except for manufacturing tolerances or, unfortunately, manufacturing defects. It makes no difference where you buy the lens, it's the luck of the draw or the QA.

If you buy an officially imported lens from an authorised Leica dealer in any country, then the 2 year warranty is valid in that country or any other country and the Leica agent in that country is contractually bound to fix it under warranty. That is fact, regardless of what they might say. Check with Leica if you do not agree. That is what an international guarantee means.

If you buy grey market as Poon sells, then your lens should still come with the Leica 2 year guarantee. The only difference is that you will have to send the lens to Leica Germany if it needs warranty work because no agent in any country will fix it free of charge. Personally, I find this reassuring because I would not send any of my Leica equipment to the agent for repair, and I accept the risk of inconvenience because of the huge savings.

I have bougght a lot of grey market Leica stuff from Hong Kong and it has never been defective.

By the way, Leica only sells to agents, so how do dealers get their hands on grey market stuff. You guessed it - from Leica agents on the side. Yes, that is correct. I have seen the invoice.

-- wayne murphy (wmurphy@powerup,com.au), June 05, 2002.

As far as I am aware, no difference in quality. I am not aware that the local distributor (eg., Leica USA) does any further quality testing after the camera leaves the factory. And Leica makes the same amount of money regardless of whether the camera is officially distributed or grey. The only difference in the 'A' vs 'B' items are in the presence vs absence of a warranty or in the terms of the warranty. This is a function of the distributor.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), June 05, 2002.

To me, logically, there should be A, B, C and several more classes of lenses. Since Leica pretty much hand-assembles their lenses, it is logical to expect differences. If you imagine a bell-curve with respect to manufacturing tolerances, then surely you can imagine a line, to the left of which are "A" lenses and to the right of which are the other category. Taking it further, there could be any number of "lines".

In fact, in manufacturing, it is common to have some stuff at the very edge of (a) tolerance band. Now, does being at the edge of this band mean "low" quality? Or is the band so narrow that being in the center vs. being on the edge has no significant performance difference? I don't know - and I bet that hardly any info about this is available. This kind of stuff requires statistically strict sampling and I am quite certain that Leica has either not done it or the results are abysmal (and worth sweeping under the carpet.)

In my experience, there is *significant* sample-to-sample variation with cameras and lenses. Even with the robot-made NiCaMins.

-- Vijay A. Nebhrajani (vijay_nebhrajani@yahoo.com), June 05, 2002.

I sent e-mails to Poon's different addresses, asking about the LTM 35mm Ultron. Never got any answers. I guess he's upholding the credo of HK dealers: no price quotes to locals EVER, UNLESS they ask in person.

Anyone in HK bought from him? Did you have to see him in person?

-- Andrew (adv@netvigator.com), June 06, 2002.