I was raised to believe in three baptisms (Water, Blood, Desire), but recently someone told me that water is an absolute necessity for Baptism. Does anyone know if this is true? Can you give me proof? Because this person said they could prove this was true, that it was pronounced as dogma. If this is true, then why have I always been taught otherwise?

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), June 13, 2002

Answers

The Baptism of Water is the one that everyone is supposed to get. However, the Church, in Her mercy, recognizes that there are some people who WOULD be baptized if they could, so She also recognizes that as the "Baptism of Desire." (Think of the Good Thief - he repented, and even though he had no chance of being baptized, Jesus told him he'd be with Him in Paradise!)

The "Baptism of Blood" is similar - it refers to martyrdom, when a person who hasn't had the chance to be baptized is martyred for the Faith.

The person who told you otherwise may be following the heresy of Fr. Leonard Feeney - he was a priest who insisted that non-Catholics and the unbaptized could not be saved under ANY circumstances. The Church pronounced THAT a heresy.

Hope that helps!

Love,

-- Christine Lehman (christinelehman@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.

But can you prove that to me. Something I can show this person? A link or something. I don't know if the Good Thief is a good example, since the Sacrament of Penance was not instituted until Pentecost.

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), June 13, 2002.

Sorry for interupting again. I found the forum by a search engine, and thought maybe someone here could answer my questions. As far as non Catholics getting to Heaven, hasn't No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church been taught for a long time?

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), June 13, 2002.

I think you are confusing your sacraments. You were asking about the Sacrament of Baptism, which was being used long before Pentecost. The Apostles were already baptizing people before Jesus was crucified.

-- Christine Lehman (christinelehman@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.

Ooooops. Sorry, you are right. Thank you Christine. People were being baptized since St. John the Baptist, but do you know at what point it was instituted as a sacrament? Add that to my other questions. I will do some searching, any suggestions as to sites?

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), June 13, 2002.

As for your other question, yes, No Salvation Outside the Church is a doctrine of the Church. Here is the official teaching of the Church on what exactly that means, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (available online):

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[338]

-- Christine Lehman (christinelehman@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.

I believe that the sacrament of Baptism, like most of the other 7 sacraments, was instituted by Christ Himself during His lifetime. If you check the New Testament, you'll see that after Christ was baptized by John, and picked his 12 Apostles, He sent the Apostles out and they started baptizing people in His name.

Perhaps someone else could provide more info? I have to go back to work right now - sorry! Hope this was helpful anyway!

Love,

-- Christine Lehman (christinelehman@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.

Thank you again Christine. From what I have read above, I have formed another question. All these new questions forming in my head, I will probably never get the original one answered. Oh well, I have just recently begun to study more on my faith, and I still have a lot to learn. Here is my question.......If Christ wants everyone to belong to his Church, as they say the Church is necessary for salvation, then would He not make sure the Church was introduced to all men (through people, literarature or whatever) at at least one point in their lives? We all know most people these days have heard of the Catholic Church, but will not join for one reason or another, then can those people be saved?

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), June 13, 2002.

Well, the best thing to do about that, Isabel, is get involved! Find a really good Catholic apologetics program and start telling all those people -- or as many as you can -- the truth about the Catholic Church. The more real, solid information they have, the better, right?

Love,

-- Christine Lehman (christinelehman@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.

As far as Baptism goes, the Catholic Church is pretty flexible in it's thinking on the subject. There are some statements made in the last few years by the Pope that you might find helpful. The Altavista search engine has a million posts on the Pope and the Church--just make sure that you're reading a church sanctioned site not some garbage by an anti-catholic. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states--"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved." In answer to your question on the wate issue, refer to the same book , part 2, article 1, VI 1258-1260. Is water always necessary? No. Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), June 13, 2002.

Let's tell Isabel one more thing; there aren't three baptisms. Baptism is all the same sacrament. In its best known aspect, this is water baptism; and is essential to being born again. Without baptism of water, one is not sacramentally born again. A baptism of Desire is adequate for salvation, but doesn't impart a sacramental character to the soul. Neither is the sacramental character part of the baptism of Blood, holy martyrdom for Christ. Yet, it would suffice for taking away all sin and for the soul's salvation.

Baptism's sacramental ''mark'', or character is impressed on a recipient's soul at baptism. This is what makes the soul a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 13, 2002.

Gene

It is precisely as I have believed too. Thanks for the affirmation.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 14, 2002.

Isabel, The church does not save, Christ work on the cross saves. To say that the Church has any saving power means that you don't need Jesus. The bible says that salvation is a Gift from God. After you have experienced Christ saving Grace you are adopted into the body of Christ, the church. In John 14:6 Jesus says " I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me." Paul wrote the book of Galatians to the Galatia Church because there was a group of people called Judiazers that tried to add on to the Gospel of Christ. They were saying that you had to trust in Christ but also follow certain Jewish traditions to be saved, (circumcision). Paul says this in his letter, "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the GRACE of Christ, for a different gospel; which really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to DISTORT the gospel of Christ. BUT even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be ACCURSED! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, his is to be accursed. WOW, Isabel Paul says this twice.

So what is the real Gospel? You find that in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. “Now I make known to you, brethren, THE GOSPEL which I preached to you, which also you RECEIVED, in which also you STAND, by which also you are SAVED, if you hold fast to the WORD which I preach to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I ALSO RECEIVED, that CHRIST DIED FOR THE SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE WAS RAISED ON THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

You see Isabel it is all about JESUS. JESUS is the way, the truth and the life, and he is our only way to the Father. The Church is a representative of him on earth through which His Glory is seen and spread though out this world. God said in Numbers 14: 21 “But indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the GLORY OF THE LORD. Jesus said in Mathew 5:16 at the Sermon on the Mount, “Let you light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and GLORIFY YOU FATHER who is in heaven. We are here, the church, to show men what Jesus looks like, talks like, acts like, displaying all of his qualities for the reason of Glorifying the Father. This is what the church is all about, to represent Christ here on earth by being like Christ, not in authority, because He has all the authority, Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

So, salvation comes by believing in Christ. It’s that simple. Grace means - giving us something that we don’t deserve. We deserved death, but he died for us that we my receive life. Amen!

KevinL

-- Kevin (k4laps@attbi.com), June 15, 2002.

Kevin:

Being-eth one not to place my trust in the authority in any man but, yeah, in Jesus alone, I hereby declare thee not to be an authority on the matter, as ye are but a mere man. Why should I listeneth to you when I haveth Jesus?

lol.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 15, 2002.

I guess the Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Corinthians, Romans, Thessalonians, and the Colossians could have told the Apostle Paul the same thing Emerald.

Food for thought.

KevinL

-- Kevin (k4laps@attbi.com), June 15, 2002.

So you are one of the apostles?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 15, 2002.

I guess what gets me, Kevin, is that you don't even understand Isabel right... can't give her the benefit of the doubt concerning some basic kind of understanding.

"Isabel, The church does not save, Christ work on the cross saves."

I mean, what is this? Come on, man.

This is basic Protestant warped understanding of what Catholicism is, setting up platitudes as wisdom.

The point in what I said (duh?) is that Protestanism invariably succumbs in some way to the very authority it sought to avoid in the first place.

Again, why should I take you as an authority on the matter?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 15, 2002.

I do not have any authority but the word of God does. I did not say anything of my own words but all from the word of God which you cannot question.

-- Kevin (k4laps@attbi.com), June 15, 2002.

Emerald I am not an Apostles. But I do study what they right so I will not be tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming.

-- Kevin (k4laps@attbi.com), June 15, 2002.

Kevin

You keep forgetting the fact that Christ gave Peter the authority on the River Jordan to build the Church. It is Peter and the Apostles who were commissioned to carry the word to all nations and make disciples of all nations and to build the Church. The Church is Christ Jesus and she is the authority which comes from Christ himself through the Holy Spirit of GOD. What Peter and his successors have declared were bound on us and the Church by Christ and that is very clear in the Scriptures. We as Catholics have that authority from the Church which Christ ordered Peter to build and she is still among us to this day. It is NOT a man made Church. It is GOD's alone and will be til the end of days of man.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 15, 2002.

Well Kevin, actually, you did use your own words, because the Scriptures require interpretation from time to time, which leaves open the possibility or human error, which in turn, necessitates a degree of authority in properly understanding it.

It would be cool if you could claim authority directly from God without taint of human error, wouldn't it?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 15, 2002.

''I guess the Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Corinthians, Romans, Thessalonians, and the Colossians could have told the Apostle Paul the same thing Emerald.''
KevinL

Dear Kevin: Those to whom Saint Paul wrote were members of the infant Catholic Church. And when you resort to maxims like: ''--So, salvation comes by believing in Christ. It’s that simple. Grace means - giving us something that we don’t deserve. We deserved death, but He died for us that we may receive life.'' --you're just repeating what the Catholic Church taught every Galatian, Ephesian, Philippian, Corinthian, Roman, Thessalonian, and Colossian, --

Except you and your sects are ''believing in Christ. It’s that simple--'' and discarding His Church; to whom He imparted authority in matters of truth in faith and morals. The recipients of Paul's holy epistles accepted Christ's word. It went much deeper than ''believing in Christ''. They understood Christ was teaching them everything through His living Church, for whom Paul was a missionary apostle.

You cannot accept the teaching of Paul without the teaching of Paul's Church. --And the Church taught salvation by Jesus Christ long before any free-lance church had appeared on the earth. You take pleasure in quoting the Apostle: --''I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed. WOW!-- Isabel'', --and fail to see you are doing just THAT.

You're countering the words of the only apostolic Church on earth. --Her saint, Paul the apostle-- speaks to all Catholics. Not just to Bible-thumpers. In His day a New Testament Bible wasn't extant. But the Catholic Church WAS, and still continues.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 15, 2002.

It's no hard feelings on my part against you personally, Kevin, but I know Protestantism like the back of my hand (where'd that scab come from?)... I had four year's bootcamp as virtually one of hundreds of evangelicals in a non-denominational (non commital?) Protestant high school and of course have plenty of friends and clients and hours of discussion since that time.

Here's the problem, Kevin. It's not the simple, easy plan as advertised... just look at all at the denominations, all the areas of disagreement, many belief systems which point the finger at the others with claims that harsh enough to suggest they might be barred from eternal life altogether.

Rapture or no rapture? Pretrib or Postrib? Infant or adult baptism? Is baptism necessary? Public confession? King James version only? The list goes on and on.

You can't tell me this is as simple as advertised. The confusion is not an indicator of the Truth.

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 15, 2002.

(ahem) also, since the Church is described in Scripture as the "body of Christ," it is no contradiction whatsoever to say that our salvation comes from the Church. Christ IS the Church.

Love, :-)

-- Christine Lehman (christinelehman@hotmail.com), June 17, 2002.