Happy Independance Day!

While Fred and Gene struggle through mid life hormone problems I was thinking(at least thats what I like to call it) about our Christian virtues against say a modern set of secular virtues: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, and pride.

I dont really know where Im going with this because I like meek, mild and humble etc, but well... lets get real,its tough and competitive out there in the world and to survive we need to be a bit selfish dont we? Nice guys dont always win.What goes around doesnt always come around. Love doesnt pay the bills. So unless we all become clergy how do we make ends meet if we are always out to help everyone else? Does anyone not see the conflict between getting ahead in life for ones self and being a Catholic?

MaryLu I recall you telling me that we are called to serve God in different ways but I struggle with that. Surely if we know we can do more for others then we should? I could do more Christian things for others BUT I CHOOSE NOT TO. I AM SELFISH sometimes- in fact often.

Ill stop dribbling and ranting, any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks and God Bless Courtenay

God Bless America

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 04, 2002

Answers

Jmj

Part of being a Christian is always trying to remember that that is what we are -- and that being a Christian means willing (and making an effort) to live, with the help of God's grace, in imitation of Jesus.

Kiwi, you wrote: "... lets get real, its tough and competitive out there in the world and to survive we need to be a bit selfish, dont we?

No, we don't. Jesus, whom we want to imitate was not even "a bit selfish." He was only self-donating. We can "survive" without being selfish.

You then wrote: "Nice guys dont always win."

True Christians don't ever need to "win" (get rich, promoted, successful, etc.). Jesus did not "win" in this life. He "won" through suffering and dying. This life is not about visible victories. Though we flee from it, this life is about sacrifice and suffering, in imitation of our Savior.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 04, 2002.

Dear Kiwi, John, et al:
I suppose the nice guys don't always win and love doesn't pay the bills--remarks are your tardy concession that 1.) Sometimes we must fight, 2.) If you want to win, do it aggressively? 3.)Some folks fight because their hormones make them feisty.

''Because I like meek, mild and humble etc, but well... lets get real, its tough and competitive out there in the world and to survive we need to be a bit selfish.'' --doesn't strike a chord with John, as he'll take the gentle and perfectionist road over competitive struggle.

But why? If the goal is worth reaching, and we have God's Will in mind, isn't it sheer joy for a man to fight the good fight? I have all the love you can imagine for my fellow man. Fred isn't hateful; I want him on my side. We need an understanding, that's all.

I was amazed at the spiritual depth of Saint Thomas More, when I read his story. After the English had judged him guilty of treason (for standing by his Catholic faith)-- More was cheerful and forgiving. To the men who were condemning him to die, he said more or less these words: ''I'm going to give up this life for the greater one (heaven); where some day soon we shall meet at Christ's banquet table. We shall then be, as Saints Stephen and his opponent for a time, SAUL, later Saint Paul-- friends making merry together. Don't worry about sending me to the block.'' He was recalling, of course, the way Paul the Pharisee had held the coats of those who were stoning Saint Stephen to death. With his total approval at that moment.

It is precisely in that spirit that I do combat here, with people who don't love me. I hope to be happy together with them all one day, in the presence of Jesus and His angels and saints. All our struggles here will be forgotten. My challenges; Freds invective. John's impatience; Kiwi's irritation with me and Fred-- All will have passed away. Because, despite what you might think about the manners I exhibited these days, i'm not trying to hurt anybody. It wouldn't be Christian. I'm trying to keep the devil away; and so should all of you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 04, 2002.

Dear Kiwi,

I am not exactly sure where you are going with your post. Sounds to me like you are struggling in your faith journey.

I have learned a long time ago that the christian life is not about winning debates, not about winning things, or wanting things, it is not about materialism and it is not about self-gratification.

Following Jesus is about dying to oneself and living for others even if it hurts and it does sometimes. Saying yes to Jesus and living for Him is not always an easy path, but He gives us 'everything' we need in this life - everything.

Sometimes we want to just give up and say enough, but then Jesus tells us to hang in there and blesses us when we do.

I have lots more to share with you about this, Kiwi, but am having company and do not have the time now...

Just remember, when you live for Jesus he blesses you beyond your wildest imagination!

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), July 04, 2002.

John and MaryLu thanks, I already know how Jesus lived his life and how we should try and live ours. Im just interested in how we as Catholics are supposed to operate in a society with a completely different set of values. Drop out and tune in...no thanks but the communal village thing aint for me. If we are to take your Christian ideals to the extreme, "We can "survive" without being selfish" and "True Christians don't ever need to "win" " then every Christian would be unemployed(but still happy and full of love and compassion of course).

Gene thanks for your personal account of the need to be competitive, though clearly the "goal" may not always be as well intentioned as yours(saving people). To me Christianity and and personal self advancement are completley opposed to each other yet as Catholics we are surrounded by bigots and hippocrites AND IT IS ACCEPTED BY EVERYONE INCLUDING THE CLERGY! I personally know many K of C who are very, very wealthy men and have certainly not made their money through love and compassion for others. Yet they are the pompous old fools who tut tut a short skirt. Yet they are the men who I recieve communion off. They are the men who read from the Bible. What a joke. Im not saying Im perfect but can no one else see that there is a slight problem here between theory and reality in Christianity today? So yes ML I do have a few doubts, nothing Im sure you good people cant straighten out. Thanks and God Bless Courtenay

-- KG (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 04, 2002.

ps David sorry about the spelling and grammar, correction:

To me Christianity and and personal MATERIAL self advancement...

-- KG (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 04, 2002.

Hi, Kiwi

Since you brought it up again, I figured I may as well tell you. I never made fun of your grammar or spelling.:-). I have terrible grammar and spelling so I didn't mind you pointing it out to me.

I didn't tell you on the other thread because I have seen what gargles out of your mouth sometimes. I didn't want you to have to ask the Moderator to delete something ,AGAIN!

David

-- David (David@excite.com), July 04, 2002.

Hm yes my language can leave something to be desired. I honestly thought my poor spelling and grammar upset you. No worries Courtenay

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 04, 2002.

Hi Kiwi,

I saw yr comments and wanted to say I understand where you're coming from. I was pondering the same things a few years ago.

I guess it's all about accepting the Cross (that life isn't easy, that we won't attain our 'glory' here on earth, that our reward comes later) and trusting in God (that when you look after His interests, He looks after yours, that being a Father He provides for your secular as well as spiritual needs).

I'm a little concerned about your suggestion:

"If we are to take your Christian ideals to the extreme, "We can "survive" without being selfish" and "True Christians don't ever need to "win" " then every Christian would be unemployed(but still happy and full of love and compassion of course)."

I'm not sure what you're saying here, since I believe work is a fundamental Christian virtue (as long as your health permits) and I'm sure Jesus worked long and countless hours in the carpentary trade for the first thirty years of His life, prior to His public mission. Jesus was not 'unemployed'.

We do live in a very materialistic society, but I think a lot of people kid themselves that materialism didn't exist thousands of years ago. I think it's a bit of a cop-out for people to say it's 'harder' in this society than centuries ago. As King Solomon said in all his wisdom, 'There is nothing new under the sun'. Satan is striking at humanity with the same trappings he always used. The same temptations exist today as they always did. But that's a gift for us - forewarned is forearmed.

Speaking for myself, I think when we resist these temptations and do not get trapped in materialism, we start to experience real freedom. We don't become a slave to money. Because human vices are insatiable - 'more' is never 'enough', and 'enough' does not sate us the way we thought it would.

The best option is to be hard working in life - because that's our sanctification - but not develop attachments to what we have, because as God gave, so He can take away.

If I were you, I wouldn't look too carefully at the people you receive Communion from and who read the Bible in Mass. I am currently contending with a new parish priest who is pro-gay, pro-contraception, pro-married priests, pro-female priests and against Pope John Paul II. Every time he gives a Catholic-bashing homily, this breaks my heart.

But I still recieve the Eucharist consecrated at His hands. And alhough I call this priest back to the right path (I am probably his nemesis!), I see the beauty of God in all this. God humbles Himself and comes down into the hands of a new-century Judas. If Jesus waited for a perfect priest to consecrate the Host, perhaps we wouldn't have Communion. Jesus comes down for people like you and I, who are trying to do the right thing. There's real beauty in that.

And if Jesus isn't so outraged that He refuses to come down in the Host at the hands of this priest, who am I to be outraged and claim anathema. Surely I couldn't be more scandalised than Jesus?

I think I've said this before but it might be fitting here - rather than looking for examples in life, sometimes the greatest option is to be one. Whatever our state.

-- Dana (dana_01@start.com.au), July 04, 2002.

Hi Kiwi,

Mother Teresa said that God does not want us to be perfect, just faithful.

You are on a spiritual journey, Kiwi, and it is normal to question things. I have learned not to judge those who give me communion, nor judge those who should be setting good examples for us but do not.

So, like one poster here said, instead of looking for others to set the example, we can 'be' the example.

God knows our weaknesses and He knows we are not perfect, never will be..but we can 'strive' for perfection - spiritual perfection, that is. It takes lots of work, lots of prayer, and the grace of God to be better than we are today.

I worked in a religious community with Brothers and let me tell you they truly are a good example of what it means to be Christian, Catholic followers of Jesus. Not once did they ever preach about righteousness, about God, not once. They always answered questions I had about God, faith, etc...but, it is the way they lived their lives that brought people to Jesus. They lived to help others, were always kind, did not take themselves too seriously, had a sense of humor, and welcomed all strangers into their midst.

Jesus says, "Welcome all strangers for you never know you may be entertaining an angel" or something to that effect and they welcomed all. They were pious.

Material things we enjoy are a blessing from God. Everything we own is a blessing from God - everything. He wants us to enjoy all the gifts He sends our way. He wants us to work for what we have too. Work is a blessing, family, friends, the air we breath - all blessings.

But, He does not want material things to own us, He does not want us to be slaves to materialism. He prefers that we live a simple life so we have more time for Him.

As you go along on your journey, Kiwi, you will find answers to your questions, and then you will have new questions. Make friends with spiritual people, read the Bible and spiritual books, listen to spiritual music in the car when you are driving, or at home, put God in the center of everything you do, get to 'know' Him, really know Him and one day you will 'get it' Kiwi. You will 'understand.'

This understanding doesn't happen overnight. Let Jesus be your guide, let Him be your example - not human beings because we fail Him all the time - being good Catholics or good Christians does not mean we always do the right thing, Kiwi and that is why we have confession.

Although it is good to have a Spiritual Director or one who is knowledgeable in our faith to talk to. They can help you on your journey and they can show how God is working in your life.

May God walk with you and bless you with the gift of wisdom. When you read the Bible, ask the Holy Spirit to bless you with understanding and clarity.

My Love and His peace..

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), July 04, 2002.

Thanks Dana, yes I need to focus on my own journey and not throw stones it just seems so ahhh I better leave it, thanks again and God Bless.

Saint Mary Lu the 'all american catholic sweet heart'! Man does your love know no bounds , thankyou for your help as well, and your patience you are really amazing. Reading through old threads I came across this from Gene:

"You seem to have swallowed the whole ''feelings'' brou-haha. Feelings are secondary. Adult reason and understanding is needed to set ''feelings'' in proper perspective."

I think Im just trying to set those feelings, dont worry my faith in our wonderful Church is far stronger than I let on around here. Thankyou and God Bless Courtenay

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 05, 2002.

Good morning, Kiwi :)

Saint MaryLu??? ha,ha....not me, MaryLu...just a strong believer...doesn't mean I am saintly....He's probably tired of hearing me say I am sorry over and over again!!

Have a great day, Kiwi

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), July 05, 2002.

What a nice lady you are, theres a few 'sad professor' types around here but you a real litlle ripper, a real beaut. YOU have a nice day!

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 05, 2002.

Hi Kiwi:

I understand EXACTLY what you're talking about. I can think of many instances in my own life that I have struggled with that question.

My husband and I are going through a "Family Ordeal" right now where we are being sued by my husband's brother, and his mother is trying to take my husband's farm equipment to put on an auction.

On one hand, the scripture that says, "If your enemy wants your coat, give him your shirt too," but does that mean you NEVER resist greedy people? That would be ludicrous, wouldn't it? In this world, you wouldn't have a pot to pee in if you lived by that motto.

I guess you just to pray about everything you do and make sure your motives are right.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 05, 2002.

Dear Gail,

I am sorry you are going through such a difficult time with your family. We've been down that road and it is not an easy one. I will remember you and your husband in my prayers.

I, too, wondered and questioned about the very same things you mentioned in your post. I remember asking one of the Brothers about that and he said, "God does not expect us to be doormats!" He gives us the gift of boldness when we need it.

Pray about the situation and ask Him to give you wisdom, counsel, and guidance. Tell Him that you just don't know how to handle this situation and ask Him to take over - He will and you will be amazed how things turn out!

Remember, Gail, God protects those who Love Him! He will protect and bless you and your husband...You will see! It's not easy to let go and trust Him completely. We give it to Him and then take it back..

It is good to have a trustworthy spiritual director, or someone knowledgeable in God's word to speak to when we are troubled because I get confused too about how to handle things sometimes..

It will all work out, Gail because we are all going to be praying for you!

"When a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him. (Proverbs 16:7)

MaryLu

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), July 05, 2002.

Hi Gail,

I am sorry to hear about your "family ordeal". I will pray for you and your family.

God Bless you Gail,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), July 05, 2002.