Please take this question seriously. If my ex-husband annulls our marriage (he wants to remarry in the Catholic church), does that make our children bastards since they were conceived of a sexual encounter without benefit of the sacrament of marriage? If they are not bastards, then they must have been immaculately conceived. I feel the Church has to declare one or the other.

How do I proceed to petition the Church for a decision?

-- Phyllis Eldredge (pfornase@aging.ca.gov), July 12, 2002

Answers

Phyllis writes:

"Please take this question seriously."

The you write:

"If they are not bastards, then they must have been immaculately conceived."

Phyllis, your question regarding children is a common question on this forum. As you ask for respect in your first statement, I also ask that you respect us here. The second sentence that I quoted seems to attempt to mock our intelligence, and at the very least mocks the wisdom of the Catholic Church.

To concisely answer your question, the terms "bastard" and "illegitamate" are secular concepts. Because these are secular terms, the Church never looks at children as "bastards," even if society does.

Note: The annulment is a statement that the basic conditions (another topic) for a marriage were not met at the time of marriage, therefore the sacramental bond could not have existed. Because of Jesus' prohibition of divorce, the Church cannot recognize a remarriage unless the first marriage was sacramentally invalid.

On another thread,

Thread 1

Mike H makes a great point:

""Do not think of your children as bastard. That idea is not true at all regardless of the annullment proceeding results. They are first and foremost children of God whom he let you raise up for him and for us all to love and be loved by. Bastard implies that they are worse than just suffering from original sin. We are saved first by baptism and not by the status of our family. Bastard also means: "something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin"; now that describes the whole human race when compared to Jesus but the blood of the cross and my own willingness to participate in his plan corrects this."

And here's a whole group of threads on annulments.

Here are some discussions of this topic:

1) Diocese of Brooklyn, NY

2) Annulment discussion

3) Diocese of Wheeling-Charleston, WV

You write:

"I feel the Church has to declare one or the other."

Well, the Church is not going to pronounce that your children are illegitamate! :-) We are all children of God. That's the Church's declared position.

You and your children are in my prayers.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 12, 2002.

To my understanding the word -bastard- was not brought into the Church language until circa 1140. At this point in time the offspring - love that word - of Catholic priests etc: had asked for their birthright(s) which included lands and monies.

This was totally rejected by the Vatican and all priests were termed celibate which was not the case prior. For a period of sixty years all of these offsprings were nullified completly. Hence your refereance to miraculous births indeed.

This was one of St. Francis' bugs to the church resulting later by the Order Of The Pope to eradicate the Franciscans. Of the 80,000 Franciscans at the time a total of 20,000 survived.

Many of the old school of thought who reside in the forum will debate an issue dating back to both Turtullia and Ambrose of the early church.

The first stating vulva reservata had Mary as a true Jewess having relations with her husband Joseph who was a young man. This fulfilled both relgious law/social standards under the eyes of God.

The Second stating Semper Virgin - perpetual virgin - St. Ambrose - as the other was not cannonized for it was accepted by the church and made " dogma. " Interestingly this was done during Constantine's period when his mother who was seeking an alternative to the cult of Isis was directing her son in the matter of church affairs. At that time in Oriental lands it was not unknown for Gods to have relations with young virgins.

In church rational should your sons be deemed bastards then yes it is a miracle birth for the earthly father does/did not exist whatever according to church " dogma. "

To God the Father all this for centuries now must be a Malox Moment indeed. Love your sons and give them continued life as their mother letting the celibates wander in their self made darkness.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 14, 2002.