For those who are aware of my views at times not supposingly Catholic and harsh I ask please for your views in the following.

As some know I am involved as a volunteer Christian councelor in a psyche ward of the major hospital of the rural area whre I reside. This week a friend who is in the profession of counciling for a group called Women In Crisis visited me from PA.

She attended our Church and as this was a holiday attended mass at various Catholic churches oustide my area. She conveyed to me she felt and sensed something was very very wrong in my parish but could not put a finger on. She is a highly sensitive and intelligent women much admired in PA.

I relayed my experience(s) ranging from Saint to sinner in the view of the parish. My work is never spoken of and acknowledged only by very few. Our parish has a total of 800 as I live in the bible belt of B.C. Canada.

Relating to her in the past four years we have had a total six suicides that are never spoken of and at the funeral masses this subject was never brought forward. Complete denial in other words.

Her take on all this was the parish is sick and not following the way of Christ but rather living a carboard cutout rendition. I have been here now over twenty years.

My request is my having heard this from a professional I ask members of this forum to both pray for me as I feel my trust in the Catholic church has been tainted with pain and disappointment for she relayed in no uncertain terms the parish was sick.

We had lost in the recent past last year seven teenagers who committed a mass suicide and we still to this day do not know why. I was needless to say deeply shocked when it hit the news.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 19, 2002

Answers

Jmj

Jean, you asked for prayers, and I will pray for you to benefit from them. If it is God's will, and if it may prevent a recurrence, may your village come to know the reasons for the mass suicide. It does not seem possible for such a thing to remain a mystery. Clues must exist. Perhaps the reasons are well known to the police and family members (via notes, diaries, etc.), but they prefer to remain silent.

I respect the action of your priest(s), who did nothing wrong in avoiding mention of suicide at the funerals. Remember that you were at Mass -- taking part in the sacrifice of Calvary. The Mass was celebrated to help the souls of the deceased and to the console the survivors (especially through the readings and homily).

The holy sacrifice of the Mass is not a psychotherapy session. Recitation of the facts (description of death, etc.) and speculation about the reasons for suicides are not appropriate at Mass. The clergyman can and should discuss these things privately with anyone who is in need of counselling.

With regard to your visitor from Pennsylvania ... [Please spell out the name of the state. How can my friend, Vincent, from southeast Asia, know what "PA" means? Ditto for "B.C." (which is British Columbia, Vincent).]
Your visitor is a counselor with an agency that deals mainly in "domestic violence." I believe that Women in Crisis is a group of radical feminists that even tries to solve "domestic" problems that arise in Lesbian "households." You and I have no reason to trust in the nebulous opinion of such a person who has been given no mandate to evaluate your parish. She may know little or nothing about genuine Catholicism and thus may be unable to give you informed comments. Here are the basically useless, generalized statements that you attributed to her: "She conveyed to me she felt and sensed something was very very wrong in my parish but could not put a finger on. ... Her take on all this was the parish is sick and not following the way of Christ but rather living a carboard cutout rendition. ... [M]y trust in the Catholic church has been tainted with pain and disappointment for she relayed in no uncertain terms the parish was sick."

In summary, Jean, I encourage you to igore what this woman told you. Resolve to make a good confession. Your "pain and disappointment" are not related to trust in the "Catholic church" [sic], but in the guilt that God is helping you to feel because of your long-expressed approval of dissent and of sin. I know, because I had to go through a similar healing process.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 19, 2002.

Jean, Gene posted some advice to "ye of little faith" on this thread: John Paul ll (James Ondrako, 2002-07-12). Though I realise this may be a bitter pill for you to swallow. I will pray for your renewed and strengthened faith, but I fear you may have set yourself up for your numerous detractors.

They could not have scripted a better platform to dismember you if they tried... "This week a friend who is in the profession of counciling for a group called Women In Crisis..." ...Eugene resist the temptation please!

Pray Jean pray, Im just discovering prayer so forgive the enthusiasm but pray pray pray pray and then pray some more and she'll be right! Love and Blessings

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 19, 2002.

John - I very mucha ppreciiate your views and input indeed. This woman is Secular Franciscan is a very devout Catholic. I was unaware of her group's mandate as I have heard her lecture at times and found much of what she stated was very solid.

Yes I do agree with you as to private time with an understanding priest but question the referal to brain clots and such for these seven individuals.

I had a " re-birth " in my life and a deep awakening. I guess if I feel or sense a member of the church ordained or secular walking away from a reality such as these suicides it leads me to severely question why?

As has been pointed out I think here in summation " there is the Church and then there is THE CHURCH. Still leaves me confused as Christ to me is a straight up person in the here and now.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 19, 2002.

Kiwi - Thank you as much I do say my office every morning with coffee. This month I have foud myself near to tears in some readings. Thank you again.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 19, 2002.

Glen - I thank you very much.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 19, 2002.

"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you." [Jesus, in Matthew 5]

Thank you, PP, for helping me to be "blessed" today.

Jean, please continue to pray to grow in your trust of those whom the Holy Spirit has placed in authority over us. I pray the Office too, and it does encourage us to have trust in our pope and bishop, while reminding all priests and bishops of their grave duties.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 19, 2002.

Hi Jean:

I'm so sorry to hear about all the tragedies in your church!! How aweful! I will pray that the Lord would give you real WISDOM and discernment.

I don't know about the woman mentioned, BUT something surely IS terribly wrong if kids in the church are killing themselves! Who is the youth leader in the church? What kind of character does he or she have? What are they teaching the kids by their conduct? Is their any sort of sub-culture in the youth group? What sort of activities were these kids involved in off church grounds? What is the pastor's response to these horrible events? I think these are legitimate questions.

John may be correct about not mentioning suicide at mass, but certainly the pastor has a DUTY to try to determine the cause of these events! If he isn't, why? Does he have his head the sand? Why is he avoiding the issue? I think in light of recent scandals, the lay people have a DUTY, OBLIGATION, AND HOLY INJUNCTION to ask questions, respectfully!

You are NOT being paranoid by having these concerns, Jean. If I had a teen there, I would be VERY CONCERNED!

Love and Prayers,

Gail

P.S. I think John had mentioned this woman's ties to feminism, though I can't see the post right now, but if your parish is "inviting" feminism into the church, then what else has it invited in?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 19, 2002.

Hi, Gail.

I agree with your concern, expressed in these words:
"[C]ertainly the pastor has a DUTY to try to determine the cause of these events! If he isn't, why? Does he have his head the sand? Why is he avoiding the issue? I think in light of recent scandals, the lay people have a DUTY, OBLIGATION, AND HOLY INJUNCTION to ask questions, respectfully!"

Gail, the fact may be that the pastor has worked (and may be continuing to work) hard on this. I could not assume that he is "avoiding the issue." It may be only that what he has learned has not yet been confided to Jean. The pastor may be speaking to other teens individually, or in school classrooms, to prevent further suicides. We really don't know. I agree with you that Jean would be within his rights to ask the pastor about this.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 19, 2002.

I hope you're right, John, that the pastor is trying to get to the bottom of it.

Jean, have you offered your services to the priest, or youth minister? Good place for you to use your time, treasure and talent!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 19, 2002.

I have some questions. (Aaaaaahhhhhhh! Oh no! more questions!)But before I ask those questions, here are a few thoughts. While I do sympathize, as suicides must be a devasting occurance for those involved, (by that I mean family and friends as well) something seems amiss for so many to be happening. But it may not be the youth group, its leader, or anything of the sort. I hear of suicides and my first question is always "What is/was the home life like?" So until that and other answers are known, one will always wonder. And it could be that the family, as I believe someone stated above, wishes specifics not to be made public.

My questions:

I had heard a long time ago (I must have been a young girl) that funderal Masses were not supposed to be said for suicide cases? (Of course, they could have a memorial service and/or burial service, but not a Mass.) Was this actually ever the case? Or if it was not mandated, was it common practice?

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), July 19, 2002.

Hello, Jean

I will rember you and your parish in my prayers at Mass tonight. Always stick with the basics Jean. Sometimes the answer is right in front of your nose. Keep it simple!

I think you should pray about your faith in front of the Blessed Sacrament if possible. God will put the answer in your head if you pray and spend time with Him in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Stick with the basics Friend and don't make it more comlicated than it is.

The devil never sleeps. Go get a good Confession and spend some time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. You will get your answers.

I will be praying for you.

God bless you

David S

-- David (David@excite.com), July 20, 2002.

Thanks to all for the marvelous input and prayers. This lady was not invited rather attended mass several times here and in the area while on her week stay.

Others who have visited from other places have given the same view without my asking for it. Once I was told this parish is a NYMBY parish - not in my backyard - syndrome.

Our parish priest has I must say matured greatly these past three years since I confronted him on the matter of his not fully accepting and coming to terms with the death of his own mother due to illnes.

This came about for he always used to put the large of statue of our Mother in the unused confessional during Lent. He " caught " me three years ago saying my rosary during Lent in the confessional asking our Mother allow her love to fully be accepted in the parish. He opened the door and asked " what was I doing? " My simple answer was " praying to our Mother as She is not among us but hidden in the darkness of a confessional. " He walked away.

He is a good man who I feel was stuck emotionally from seminar training in not sharing his feelings with the parish members. I told him we want him to do so as we do not love him because we need him - rather need him for we love him.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 20, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Isabel (big "I").

It is true that, according to the discipline imposed by the 1917 Code of Canon Law, a person who committed suicide could not receive a Catholic funeral or burial service. However that changed greatly with the publication of the 1983 Code of Canon Law. As the St. Joseph Foundation puts it: "Not knowing if a 'last second' repentance occurred, ... the Church, in its mercy and solicitude, allows for a benefit of doubt and does not automatically exclude the departed from Catholic funeral rites. The restrictions placed on funerals for suicides by the 1917 Code do not appear in the 1983 Code. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (numbers 2282 and 2283) provides some excellent insights on the possible diminution of responsibility of the one committing suicide."

"Isabel," do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC]? If not, you really need one (and the text can be found on the Internet too).

The Church's perspective today on suicide is explained well in this article by a priest.

Jean, here is a brief article entitled, "Why Are Our Teenagers Killing Themselves?" It was prepared for a pro-life encyclopedia that is now available on the Internet.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 20, 2002.