Just to let you all know that after nearly 7 years of stress etc - NHL/PARAGON FINANCE have finally accepted a settlement!!!

I did everything that was explained on this site and I hate to tell you all that you are wasting your time. A lender can sell a repossessed house for 'a reasonable amount', so our arguments regarding undervalues etc are a complete waste of time, money and effort. Just accept the debt, come to a full and final settlement arrangement and then get on with your lives. This upset has cost our family so much, and not just in monetary terms, that I wish I had asked for a settlement years ago. National Home Loans/Paragon were asking us for a shortfall of £33000.00. Our house was valued at £92500.00 and sold for £55000.00. Then interest was added!!! We have just settled with them for £6000.00 - sounds a lot but better than £33000.00!!! It's finished, over, settled - thank god!!!!

Best of luck to all of you - WE ARE STILL THE VICTIMS.

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 24, 2002

Answers

Thanks you for your note, however I must disagree with your assessement that we are wasting our time, I for one must inform you that since I began to question everything that the BS and their flunkys Eversh*ts have been saying it all seems to have gone quiet. Maybe my last communication to them that advised that I would be sueing for harrassment and fraud if they continued writing to me without providing proof of their claim has done the trick. Fight On People ! I'd rather make myself bankrupt than give them greedy bastards any more money.

-- John (sharky_john@hotmail.com), July 24, 2002.

They will have gone quiet - they are planning their next move. I agree that we do not want to pay any more money than is necessary but making yourself bancrupt is not the answer - companies can still chase for money after the bancruptcy has been discharged. I am not undermining anyone's efforts - I have been there myself dont forget - but I feel that everyone should be made aware of the prolonged stress and anxiety of trying to fight what in some cases is a losing battle. Once again I wish you lots of luck.

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 24, 2002.

Would you care to elaborate on how your company can chase for money after a bankruptcy has been discharged? If the mortgage shortfall amount was included in the list of creditors, (for the full amount of the claim,) my understanding (and experience is that) they absolutely cannot revisit the debt after a certificate of discharge has been issued. I'm with John on this one I am afraid. After 11 years of hell they will get a penny only over my dead body.

-- Too scared to say (iwasduped@yahoo.com), July 24, 2002.

I suggest you re-read my message - I did not mention a Company at all - I was a victim of Shortfall like yourself and after visiting with Solicitors, Bancruptcy Court etc we went with info given to us and opted for a settlement - please dont get annoyed with me - as I said I was also a victim!!!!!

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 24, 2002.

I have to say that I don't agree with you.

I've never been repossessed myself, but I've experianced first hand the injustice that is the norm in this society. I never used to question, challenge or protest anything. Thesedays, I challenge everything, and I now realise that if something is wrong, then its wrong, and there are ways to get it changed.

You appear to be saying that there is no point in protesting, no point in challenging. If they stomp on you then just accept it.

As I say, I dsiagree with you.

Good Luck.

-- Harry (pearson_harry@hotmail.com), July 24, 2002.

Oh I'm not annoyed - really - it's just that for lots of us who have "wasted our time" as you put it, reading that our efforts to get justice for situations which were not our fault is a little hard! The ref to the "company" was your Lender btw - they have [allegedly] been known to spin that tale about being able to override a bankruptcy discharge certificate.

-- Too scared to say (iwasduped@yahoo.com), July 24, 2002.

I take issue with your statement 'just accept the debt' --d! This is dangerous advice since many of the shortfall claims are built on unsound accounting, dodgy dealings by lenders, estate agents and solicitors, and as yet unclear law. The corporate meltdown that is happening in the US and will soon be happening here is evidence that many of the 'respectable' businessmen running our top companies are CROOKS! Get Real --d! What you have decided to do to put an end to your own problem is not a universal panacea for the rest of us. It is the reponsibility of everyone to question what people in power or control do and seek to examine how they act. Only by scrutiny in the darkest corners will the cockroaches be cleaned out!

-- Gordon Bennet (arsenewhinger@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002.

How many of you have won? Why are you all so defemsive? Because you know I am right. I protested until I was blue in the face about the injustice done to repossee's - see my first postings on this site over 12 months ago. I have contacted Newspapers, MP's, Television Media etc and nothing has ever come from it. I have used reams of paper and gallons of ink from letter writing and still could not get anywhere. I have Sarned. faxed and e-mailed and still could not win. I am a very strong person, you need to be in our situation, and I am not a pushover, but how many times can you be told the same info - YOU OWE THEM MONEY - and they will get it eventually, even if you do not like their tactics.

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

You are so wrong, as previous messengers have reported, you took a way out that I do not intend to take, as far as I am concerned I have negated this so called unproven debt, when they can "prove" that I owe them this money then I will review my information, until then they can wait til hell freezes over ! They have been warned that I will sue them for harrassment and fraud if they write to me again without providing the information that I seek, as I said earlier they have yet to write to me and they wont because they have no evidence ! Case Closed and without one red cent being handed over. Full details and updates will be made when (if) the shitbags get in touch.

-- John (sharky_john@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002.

Dear D,

I am very pleased that you feel happy with your settlement and the best of luck to you. However the reason for the defensiveness is that we do not agree with your comments. As for giving up the fight - one wonders what would have happened had the Suffragettes said the same thing.

-- Chris (chris@anon.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

When you all start marching in the streets and chaining yourselves to the railings of Lenders - let me know - I will be first in line to throw stones etc!!!

As I have already said - numerous times - I went on the advice given from many different organizations etc.

Dont all upset yourselves - you have enough problems as it is. I am entitled to my thoughts and comments as well as anyone else!!!!!!!!

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

Ditto. By the way it's not directly my problem so please do not pass judgement. I thought that I was dealing with a civilised individual, but obviously I was mistaken, next time I will try not to be as polite. Are you sure you know which side you are on?? And why are you getting so upset and agitated with a different view to yours - maybe you are not quite as content as you would have us all believe.

-- Chris (chris@anon.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

Who said anything about being content!!! Now who's getting personal? You know nothing about me, my life, my problems or circumstances and so have no right whatsoever to pass judgement oe comments on me or my actions. And please dont reply again if you cannot add any helpful comments or suggestions to the thousands of people still being hounded day after day by lenders etc.

I was quite serious regarding my comments on marches etc. Maybe I might organize one - all repossessee's to march to Parliament and state their cases personally. Anyone interested?

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

Perhaps you'd like to read my message again. A personal comment would have gone something like "You are not content" when my actual wording stated "Maybe". By the way one of those being hounded happens to be my fiance and I do believe if you check earlier postings you will discover some of my more 'helpful' comments. I apologise as when you said you would like to throw stones I thought you meant 'at' us and not 'with' us. If you are not content and you are strong, as you stated earlier then why not continue the fight, I mean that as no criticism to you personally either. I know of many people where the lender has settled for little or no payout. If we are not winning then why has my fiance gone from being hounded on a daily basis to being contacted on or around every 5-6 months? Also why have the solicitors stopped contacting and it has suddenly reverted back to Bradford & Bingley themselves. Please do not take it so personally if somebody challenges or disputes your remarks, I am living day to day with the worry even though indirectly so I understand all of the feelings involved.

-- Chris (chris@anon.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

I am continuing the fight - for other repossessee's - I have recently sent another e-mail to a Daily Mail reporter who is very interested in the plight of repossessee's, and another to my local MP. I will be visiting with another local opposition MP within the next few weeks and will keep the site posted on the outcome of that meeting.

I am sorry that your fiance is having these problems and I hope that they will soon be sorted to your satisfaction.

My decision to pay a settlement was not one that was taken lightly, but it is one decision that I will never regret. My family and I can now get on with our lives, without the constant worry of who's on the phone, who's ringing the doorbell and what delights are amongst your post. I am now free to buy another home!!!! If I could afford one that is!!! And do I want to bother - I think not - not after all of this hassle.

Best wishes.

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

Lordy, what a marathon! What you may or may not realise Dave, is that many of us would probably settle for an 'affordable' amount (perhaps not as much as £6k though!) if we could get the lender to agree. Getting to that point does take a long time during which their attitude clearly changes as they begin to realise that we are not going to roll over and be shafted. There is of course a moral issue underlying all of this which is one of should the government be held accountable and ultimately responsible for the crass mismanagement of the economy which led to most people's grief in the first place. What we are seeing over endowment mortgages and pensions is simply more evidence of just how useless the majority of the financial services industry is and just how incompetent the majority of people in the top jobs in this country are. I think many people are less and less willing to be shat on by the privileged and over paid 'elite' who always seem to emerge from these scandals smelling of roses.

-- Gordon Bennet (arsenewhinger@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002.

Thanks for the comments - what are you doing to help?

By the way - my name is not Dave!!!!!!!!! Different sex.

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

Dear Debbie, I'm sorry if that's not your name but it was the first one that came to mind... I'm not really sure I understand your postings on what is a site to help victims of repossession. You ask what I'm doing to help? Well the best answer I can think of is- RESISTING. Resistance is all the average citizen can achieve, faced with the ever more remote forces that control and influence our daily lives. More and more people are coming to this realisation, although the combined forces of a right wing dominated press, multinational corporations, toothless legislature, and the chemicals they put in our food all conspire (perhaps not consciously- though I'm not even sure of that) to render us ever more pliable and subservient.

You advocate 'getting on with our lives' as though this is some kind of answer. If you thought things through you might begin to understand that these struggles are part of our lives not some accidental cul-de-sac we've strayed into.

-- Gordon Bennet (arsenewhinger@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002.

Congratulations d on the settlement of your debt. Don't let the negative comments above worry you, these are from people who haven't settled and are prepared to continue having the stress that this places on them, continue to blame others for the situation they are in, without taking any responsibility for the decisions they made. I think that you got a good settlement. When I helped a friend settle recently for £1k on a shortfall of £12.4k I got negative comments on this sight when I posted our experience. Some people even said not to be duped by me. I know the relief you feel when you have settled as I've seen the difference it has made to my friend. So to all of you that still don't want to take any responsibility for your debts and don't even want to compromise, then all I can say is that you must like the position which you are in and you've only got yourselves to blame if you do end up in court.

-- (von6@uboot.com), July 25, 2002.

Dear Gordie - I think you need to get a life and stop watching so many episodes of the x-files - this is real people we are discussing with very real problems ie HAVING THEIR HOMES REPOSSESSED or have YOU forgotten what this site is all about.

Regards

Deborah

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 25, 2002.

OK Deborah, this is not a forum for putting right the world. I hope that you are now able to put this troubling period behind you and move on to happier activities. Bon chance!

-- Gordon Bennet (arsenewhinger@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002.

Gordon,

Don't take any notice of the above negative postings. I know a lot of people are grateful to you for helping them reach a settlement, and for your advice, including myself. Keep up the good work.

Best wishes, Mark.

-- M Amos (Idgroms@hotmail.com), July 25, 2002.

I have stood back and watched this thread and a few others over the past few months and noticed the increasing proliferation of phrases such as:

"all of you that still don't want to take any responsibility for your debts"

"YOU OWE THEM MONEY - and they will get it eventually, even if you do not like their tactics"

"Just accept the debt, come to a full and final settlement arrangement and then get on with your lives."

"everyone should be made aware of the prolonged stress and anxiety of trying to fight what in some cases is a losing battle."

"I hate to tell you all that you are wasting your time."

"I know of people who have spent tens of thousands of pounds on solicitors and barrister fees. They have been told they had a good case, only for the solictor to recommend just before the court hearing that they should settle out of court. They ended up gaining nothing extra and at a huge cost to themselves."

These phrases are found dispersed freely amongst supposedly helpful texts but grouped here they clearly show a certain trend. I would strongly suggest that readers use their own judgement as to whether they actually owe any debt that has not yet been put to "strict proof".

I for one will not give up the fight for justice. I believe that I have proof that the Halifax deliberately undervalued, undermarketed and undersold my property. I am well aware of the "prolonged stress and anxiety" caused by lenders persistently making it as difficult as possible for borrowers to obtain the evidence that they have a legal right to. I believe that their sole intention is to make it feel that it is in fact a "losing battle". My advice based on my experience is: Do NOT EVER ask for any settlement on any alleged debt that has not been proven just to get the stress taken away - that is what they are depending on by giving you the stress in the first place.

Don't be conned either!

-- Tony Hayter (Tony@Hayter.com), July 25, 2002.

Perhaps the reason you keep seeing these phrases is due to the fact that they might be true.

Someone that I know did have a settlement on a shortfall but the reason was certainly not because of the stress factor, it was due to other circumstances entirely.

Because he had been able to obtain other credit whilst knowing of the alleged shortfall debt his lenders and even his own solicitor said that the lender had a very good case to take to court. If taken to court the lenders would probably be able to obtain an attachment of earnings - not a nice thought at 45 with a shortfall of £36k - so he asked for a settlement. It took approx 12 months to come to a mutual figure, He is now clear from worry and hassle.

-- anon (DARENOTSAY@SCARED.COM), July 25, 2002.

Hi 'Dare Not Say',

I trust the owners of www.scared.com in Colorado, USA are aware of your email address ?

In my opinion you have deliberately avoided the fact that I stated, namely that settlements should not be negotiated on debts that have not been subjected to "strict proof". You have instead merely used your reply to spout more of the "I know someone whose life was saved by settlement" nonsense. I think I'll add "If taken to court the lenders would probably be able to obtain an attachment of earnings - not a nice thought at 45" to the other "sheep's clothing" propoganda phrases above. Please credit the readers of this forum with a modicum of intelligence.

Once again I will repeat my advice based on my experience to all repossession victims: Do NOT EVER ask for any settlement on any alleged debt that has not been proven.

What's the betting that another "never mind whether you actually owe the money, just give them some money to stop the worry and hassle" type of reply appears from the pro-settlement lobby - I wonder ?

-- Tony Hayter (Tony@Hayter.com), July 25, 2002.

Hi again!

I wish I had never posted what I thought was good news on this site - anytime anyone has said they have got a settlement or better still stopped the harrassment etc without paying a penny - so called 'experts' do nothing but spout loads of negative bullshit and claptrap. As I have said before - if you have nothing good to say - dont say it!

And why on earth would I, or others who have settled. spout propaganda - especially as I was a victim of harrassment etc bu National Homes Loans/Paragon Finance for nearly 11 long years (7 since repo).

And could I just ask the last message writer - what is your experience?

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 26, 2002.

Before this thread gets completely out of hand and insults start flying even thicker, can I just observe that most problems in life are sorted by compromise. Compromise allows both parties in a dispute to achieve closure. Few of us can claim in honesty to be 100% right and 100% the victim in our shortfall claim fight. Seeking a reasonable settlement is not giving in and doesn't have to include acknowledgement of debt either.

-- Gordon Bennet (arsenewhinger@hotmail.com), July 26, 2002.

Thank you!!! At last a reasonable answer - can we now forget about this thread please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best wishes to everyone

D

-- d (dp99@blueyonder.co.uk), July 26, 2002.

It is just such a shame that these things get out of hand as most people on this site do a lot of good for other people such as myself, they give a lot of support and advice which helps people who are at their wits end.The only mistake made by the person making the original listing was to tell everyone to give up which was a very daft statement to make given that all cases are completely different and some of the actions taken against certain individuals is illegal and immoral. But that said I think the person making the statement just made a mistake in what was said [ not a crime] and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I myself would rather put needles in my eyes than pay up [but then that is my opinion] I often read the listings on this site I don't agree with a lot of them but that is the point of discussion to find some sort of middle ground or swap ideas,I remember posting one that got a lot of people steamed up regarding advertising auctions so as to push up the prices made on repossessed houses for this I received threats insults etc. What a shame we can't all just swap ideas without getting annoyed. David

-- David (stitsevol@aol.com), August 11, 2002.