Hey Kevin and Jake:

Thanks so much for your great posts!! Both of them! I broke up the threat since it was getting SO LONG.

Kevin, you said "None of their beliefs contradicted scripture, so they did not mention purgatory, praying to saints or Jesus being the invisible head of the church."

I'm afraid I have to STRENUOUSLY disagree.

Please see the following:

On purgatory, see http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/purg.htm

For praying to saints, please see . . .

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/saints.htm

Here's one on prayer and intercession of Mary

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary_dev.htm

I BEG you to read these writings yourself, and not to read what Protestants TELL you the church fathers taught. You will see the overwhelming historicity of these doctrines. Purgatory IS explicitly taught in Macabees, which of course was TAKEN OUT by the reformers.

I appreciate your finding a closer relationship to Jesus outside the church, but my experience has been quite the opposite -- finding a closer relationship to Jesus within the Church. Subjective experience is NEVER a good rule of faith.

Also, please see Ephesians 2:19-22 "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built upon the FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BEING THE CORNERSTONE, in whom the whole building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." That is the VISIBLE church.

Elsewhere, it says, "The CHURCH is the foundation and pillar of the truth." (I'm too lazy to look up the site right now, though I think it's in Timothy.) Which Church was Paul talking about? They all teach a different "truth" -- at least Protestant churches do!

Doesn't every Protestant denomination have a "President"? What's the difference between "the Pope" and "the President"? In fact, where in scripture is there an outline for Protestant denominations at all? THERE IS NONE!

Well, I better get to bed.

God Bless All,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 13, 2002

Answers

Top

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), August 14, 2002.

Actually, what I studied on the church fathers is their original writing, nothing added to them. It was their view without a protestant or a catholic persuasion. Paul, Peter, or any of the other Apostles who passed on the traditions did not mention anything about purgatory, praying to Mary, praying to the Saints etc. Gail, I am not part of any denomination, my local church that I attend is a bible church. We have overseers, not presidents, I know nothing about presidents. Gail how do you think you enter into the Church? The universal Church that all believers belong to is the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ when we confess Jesus as our savior.

The verse you mention in Ephesians 2: the context of this verse was based on the controversy over whether Gentiles believers had to come to God through Judaism or whether they could come directly to God as Gentiles. This was the issue in the early church (Acts 15:1-5; Gal. 1- 2). Paul gave the solution to this problem again here (cf. Acts 15:6- 21; Gal. 3-4). God has made Jewish and Gentile believers one in the church (v. 14). Just like He has made us one. He created a new entity, the church, out of two others, namely Jews and Gentiles (v. 15). Both kinds of believers experience reconciliation with each other in that body (v. 16), and both have access to God by one Spirit (v. 18). In verse 19, because of this union, Gentile believers, (us) are no longer strangers (foreigners) and aliens respecting Israel. The gentiles are fellow citizens with Jewish believers in the church, GOD’S NEW HOUSEHOLD (1 TIM. 3:15). Christians are also fellow citizens of heaven with all other saints of other ages.

In verse 20 Paul compared the church to a temple. God used the Apostles to reveal and establish the Church. When Paul wrote this, the cornerstone was the crucial part of the foundation of a building. It was the stone with which the builder squared up ever other stone including the other foundation stones. This is why Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Gail, what kind of personal relationship do you have with Christ? The bible says to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.

Gail, do you walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, do you try to please him in all aspects, do you try to bear fruit for every good work and increase in the knowledge of God. It is God who placed us out of the darkness into the light and the Church. It is God who helps up walk in a manner worthy of the Lord. He is our power source and we are His Church. Set apart to do good work and increase in the knowledge of God through Christ. Going to a physical church does not sanctify me. Being a member of a local or the universal church does not sanctify me. I will not have a personal relationship with Christ if I do not spend time with him. You get to know Christ through His Word.

-- Kevin (k4laps@attbi.com), August 14, 2002.

Hi Kevin:

You said, "Actually, what I studied on the church fathers is their original writing, nothing added to them." The quotes that I made available to you were NOT interpolations IF that's what you're suggesting. I checked. These quotes were taken from the original documentations. They are legitimate and are authoritative in the sense that it shows what the early church and the subsequent church believed -- Early Church Commentary, if you will. St. Augustine believed in purgatory. St. Jerome believed in purgatory. Do you know what purgatory is? It is not defined by the catechism as a place. Also, the Church acknowledges it has no idea how long this purging takes. Kevin, do you believe that when a believer dies he will take that old carnal nature into glory with him? Purgatory is the final place of purification (or sanctification) -- that's it! Why would any believer think that he is going to take that "old man" with him, and why would he want to?

You said "Paul, Peter, or any of the other Apostles who passed on the traditions did not mention anything about purgatory, praying to Mary, praying to the Saints etc. Gail." Of course, they wouldn't have passed on the tradition of praying or talking to the Saints at that time -- the Saints had not passed on yet. In fact, you can tell from Paul's writings that they expected the Lord to return IN THEIR LIFETIME, so they did not even thing that far ahead. There are several references to purgatory in the N.T., though the word "purgatory" is not mentioned. 1 Cor 3:15, the parable of the fellow who is "thrown into prison until he pays the last farthing,"

You said, "Gail how do you think you enter into the Church? The universal Church that all believers belong to is the body of Christ." I would agree with you, that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ when we confess Jesus as our savior. That's what the Catechism teaches. You said, "The verse you mention in Ephesians 2: the context of this verse was based on the controversy over whether Gentiles believers had to come to God through Judaism or whether they could come directly to God as Gentiles. ...The gentiles are fellow citizens with Jewish believers in the church, GOD’S NEW HOUSEHOLD (1 TIM. 3:15). Christians are also fellow citizens of heaven with all other saints of other ages." AGREED, followers of Jesus Christ are the Household of God, (that is what the Catechism teaches as well) but that does not EX-clude the Church that Jesus instituted, and the apostolic succession thereof. My point was simply that Jesus instituted a visible, AUTHORITATIVE church.

You said, "Gail, what kind of personal relationship do you have with Christ?" I have an active, living, obedient faith in Jesus Christ. He is my Lord. I will go where he tells me. I will follow Him to the ends of the earth. Like you, I have a burning zeal and passion for our Lord.

Let me just tell you a little bit of my personal experience in Protestant churches if you don't mind. I have been an evangelical Protestant for over 20 years. I have been involved in denominations and non-denominational churches. These churches were all full of strife, bickering, me-ism, and COMPETITION. It's interesting that you quoted the passage, "I am of Peter . . . I, of Apollos" etc. That is exactly what Protestant churches are -- followers of manmade interpretations of scripture -- Lutherans follow Luther; Presbyterians follow Calvin; Wesleyans follow Wesley. When a Protestant tries to find a new church home, they first have to, or should, do extensive research on what that church believes because you can no longer look at titles to determine such. They have produced some good fruit, to be sure, but there have also been a multitude of friction and bad fruit as well. Protestanism, to me, is a fractured, splintered, bickering group of people who all want THEIR WAY -- gonna do it MY WAY, have MY agenda, teach MY TRUTHS.

Does anyone with a Bible have the right to start their own church? Was David Koresh's group in Waco a legitimate church? He had a bible he was basing his "truth" on. Look at TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network) and you will see heretic after heretic espousing THEIR interpretation of scripture; the latest heresy being "we are all little gods." They have a Bible, does that give them the authority to teach their interpretation of the Bible. Look at the zillions of people worldwide they are leading astray. It sickens me to the core.

Kevin, have you ever read the catechism? It is RICH beyond compare. Catholic teaching is based on scripture and tradition; the traditions handed down to us by our forefathers. What a glorious thing it is. In Catholocism I can go as deep IN THE LORD as I wish. The Catholic Church has the "family jewels," because it is the extension of the FIRST CHURCH ever established. It gives me a sense of belonging to the family of God that transcends all others.

I know that there are many people within the Catholic Church that don't know Christ as you and I do, but there are MANY MANY WHO DO! There are false believers in EVERY CHURCH! Jesus predicts that, and they won't be removed until the last day.

Well, I really enjoy discussing these things with you. You are my brother in the Lord, and pray that you will reach multitudes for Christ.

Kevin, please read the following quotes of the Church Fathers who believed that those who followed the principle of "sola scriptura" were heretics. Again, these are NOT interpolations. You can easily check for yourself by checking them against the original writings. The Church was ONE visible unit.

Private Exegesis apart from Tradition and Church

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4,33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199),in ANF,I:508

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men, ùa man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind. For after their blasphemy, what is there that is unlawful for them (to attempt)? But should they even effect the contrivance, they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles, will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory, so the apostolic men would not have inculcated teaching different from the apostles, unless they who received their instruction from the apostles went and preached in a contrary manner. To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian,On Prescription against the Heretics,32 (c.A.D. 200),in ANF,III:258

"For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy." Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,7:16 (post A.D. 202),in ANF,II:553-554

"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying:'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [ie., the word of truth] ' (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God." Origen,Homilies on Matthew,Homily 46,PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254),in CON,392

"For the method of godliness consists of these two things, pious doctrines, and virtuous practice: and neither are the doctrines acceptable to God apart from good works, nor does God accept the works which are not perfected with pious doctrines. For what profit is it, to know well the doctrines concerning God, and yet to be a vile fornicator? And again, what profit is it, to be nobly temperate, and an impious blasphemer? A most precious possession therefore is the knowledge of doctrines: also there is need of a wakeful soul, since there are many that make spoil through philosophy and vain deceit. The Greeks on the one hand draw men away by their smooth tongue, for honey droppeth from a harlot's lips: whereas they of the Circumcision deceive those who come to them by means of the Divine Scriptures, which they miserably misinterpret though studying them from childhood to all age, and growing old in ignorance. But the children of heretics, by their good words and smooth tongue, deceive the hearts of the innocent, disguising with the name of Christ as it were with honey the poisoned arrows of their impious doctrines: concerning all of whom together the Lord saith, Take heed lest any man mislead you. This is the reason for the teaching of the Creed and for expositions upon it." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,4:2 (A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:19

"And, O wretched heretic! you turn the weapons granted to the Church against the Synagogue, against belief in the Church's preaching, and distort against the common salvation of all the sure meaning of a saving doctrine." Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,12:36 (inter A.D. 356-359),in NPNF2,IX:227

"But since they allege the divine oracles and force on them a misinterpretation, according to their private sense, it becomes necessary to meet them just so far as to vindicate these passages, and to shew that they bear an orthodox sense, and that our opponents are in error." Athanasius,Discourse Against the Arians,I:37(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:327-328

"To refuse to follow the Fathers, not holding their declaration of more authority than one's own opinion, is conduct worthy of blame, as being brimful of self-sufficiency." Basil,EpistleTo the Canonicae,52:1 (A.D. 370),in NPNF2,VIII:155

"While (the sects) mutually refute and condemn each other, it has happened to truth as to Gideon; that is, while they fight against each other, and fall under wounds mutually inflicted, they crown her. All the heretics acknowledge that there is a true Scripture. Had they all falsely believed that none existed, some one might reply that such Scripture was unknown to them. But now that have themselves taken away the force of such plea, from the fact that they have mutilated the very Scriptures. For they have corrupted the sacred copies; and words which ought to have but one interpretation, they have wrested to strange significations. Whilst, when one of them attempts this, and cuts off a member of his own body, the rest demand and claim back the severed limb....It is the church which perfect truth perfects. The church of believers is great, and its bosom most ample; it embraces the fulness (or, the whole) of the two Testaments." Ephraem,Adv. Haeres. (ante A.D. 373),in FOC,I:377-378

"Who knows not that what separates the Church from heresy is this term, 'product of creation, ' applied to the Son? Accordingly, the doctrinal difference being universally acknowledged, what would be the reasonable course for a man to take who endeavors to show that his opinions are more true than ours?" Gregory of Nyssa,Against Eunomius,4:6 (inter A.D. 380-384),in NPNF2,V:162

"For heresies, and certain tenets of perversity, ensnaring souls and hurling them into the deep, have not sprung up except when good Scriptures are not rightly understood, and when that in them which is not rightly understood is rashly and boldly asserted. And so, dearly beloved, ought we very cautiously to hear those things for the understanding of which we are but little ones, and that, too, with pious heart and with trembling, as it is written, holding this rule of soundness, that we rejoice as in food in that which we have been able to understand, according to the faith with which we are imbued;" Augustine,On the Gospel of John,Homily XVIII:1 (A.D. 416 et 417),NPNFI,VII:117

"If you produce from the divine scriptures something that we all share, we shall have to listen. But those words which are not found in the scriptures are under no circumstance accepted by us, especially since the Lord warns us, saying, In vain they worship me, teaching human commandments and precepts'(Mt 5:19) " Maximinus(Arch-Arian Heretic),Debate with Maximinus,1 (c.A.D. 428),in AAOH,188

"Therefore, as I said above, if you had been a follower and assertor of Sabellianism or Arianism or any heresy you please, you might shelter yourself under the example of your parents, the teaching of your instructors, the company of those about you, the faith of your creed. I ask, O you heretic, nothing unfair, and nothing hard. As you have been brought up in the Catholic faith, do that which you would do for a wrong belief. Hold fast to the teaching of your parents. Hold fast the faith of the Church: hold fast the truth of the Creed: hold fast the salvation of baptism." Cassian,John,Incarnation of the Lord,6:5 (c.A.D. 429/430),in NPNF2,XI:593-594

"I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical pravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or any one else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they rise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church." Vincent of Lerins,Commonitory,2:4 (c.A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:132

"But the Church of Christ, the careful and watchful guardian of the doctrines deposited in her charge, never changes anything in them, never diminishes, never adds, does not cut off what is necessary, does not add what is superfluous, does not lose her own, does not appropriate what is another's, but while dealing faithfully and judiciously with ancient doctrine, keeps this one object carefully in view,ùif there be anything which antiquity has left shapeless and rudimentary, to fashion and polish it, if anything already reduced to shape and developed, to consolidate and strengthen it, if any already ratified and defined to keep and guard it. Finally, what other object have Councils ever aimed at in their decrees, than to provide that what was before believed in simplicity should in future be believed intelligently, that what was before preached coldly should in future be preached earnestly, that what was before practised negligently should thenceforward be practised with double solicitude ? This, I say, is what the Catholic Church, roused by the novelties of heretics, has accomplished by the decrees of her Councils,ùthis, and nothing else,ùshe has thenceforward consigned to posterity in writing what she had received from those of olden times only by tradition, comprising a great amount of matter in a few words, and often, for the better understanding, designating an old article of the faith by the characteristic of a new name." Vincent of Lerins,Commonitory,23:59 (c.A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:148-149

"[A]ll heresies, that they evermore delight in profane novelties, scorn the decisions of antiquity, and ...make shipwreck of the faith. On the other hand, it is the sure characteristic of Catholics to keep that which has been committed to their trust by the holy Fathers...." Vincent of Lerins,Commonitory,24:63 (c.A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:150

"His (Nestorius) first attempt at innovation was, that the holy Virgin, who bore the Word of God, who took flesh of her, ought not to be confessed to be the mother of God, but only the mother of Christ; though of old, yea from the first, the preachers of the orthodox faith taught, agreeably to the apostolic tradition, that the mother of God. And now let me produce his blasphemous artifice and observation unknown to any one before him." Theodoret of Cyrus,Compendium of Heretics' Fables,12 (c.A.D. 453),in FOC,I:449

Joseph A. Gallegos © 1997-1998 All Rights Reserved.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 14, 2002.

Kevin,

You wrote, "You get to know Christ through His Word."

But His Word is not merely the Bible! Christ Is the Word made flesh! This means that yes, the Bible Is the Word of God! However, it isn't the ENTIRE Word of God. If it were, there would have had to been a person next to Christ to catch every parable, every word He had ever spoken. Even so, if the Holy Spirit had inspired others to write the ENTIRE Word of God I'm sorry but it wouldn't be able to fit into a 4,000 page book. The Church fathers and documenters knew it would be impossible to write down ALL of Gods Word. But the Holy Spirit has kept the rest of His Word alive in Holy Tradition. Where can this Tradition be found? In the Catholic Church, and no where else!!!

I guarantee that once you ask Christ to show you the way, and you make an effort to try and understand His Church, you will never find another Home!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 14, 2002.

"John 6:52-59

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food INDEED, and my blood is drink INDEED. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." 66 AFTER THIS MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES DREW BACK AND NO LONGER WENT ABOUT WITH HIM. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.""

Kevin, please don't be one of those disciples that draws back at this "hard teaching".

You will not find the life-giving Body and Blood of Christ any where else but the Catholic Church!

I do not wish to force the Catholic beliefs on you. But I care for your soul. And I know exactly what you are looking for; Truth. And this is where you will find it.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 14, 2002.

Kevin, When you asked Gail what kind of personal relationship he has with Christ, or do he(Gail) walk in a manner worthy of the Lord or do he (Gail) try to please Him in all aspects or do he(Gail)try to bear fruit for every good work and increase in the knowledge of God. What are you actually trying to tell Gail? That he didn't do all these things? Kevin, you should NOT have ask these questions for it has reflects of your inner 'Holier than Thou' attitude. You speak like a modern day scribes and pharisee. What make you think that Gail is that sort of a person? If going to a physical church does not sanctify you than Jesus could have make a big mistake by building His Church-the Body of Christ or the Community of Christian. It seems that you are smarter than Christ to know that knowing Him is by through His Word where at the time of Christ the Bible doesn't even exist. Kevin, being a Christian does not mean you and God alone. You need the community as much as Jesus choose his first community- The Apostles. As for me, I can honestly tell you that it is throught the community that God give me my santification.

Vincent

-- Vincent Koh (vincentkoh@pd.jaring.my), August 14, 2002.

Without stepping on anyone's toes here (yeah right!!) I'd like to humbly point out that, while the word "purgatory" is not mentioned in Scripture (neither is "Trinity", by the way), the *concept* of purgatory is certainly there.

Example 1:

Matthew 5:25-26: "Come to terms with your opponent quickly while you are with him on the way, lest your opponent deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be cast into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not come out from it until you have paid the last penny."

(Where is this "prison"? It certainly isn't Heaven. And obviously it's not Hell, because Hell is eternal. Therefore, there must be some place where you must go to pay off your outstanding debts before entering Heaven -- ergo, Purgatory.)

Example 2:

1 Cor 3:12-15 - "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Now -- notice that St. Paul says some people will pass through this fire, and yet be saved. So what is this fire? Can't be Hell -- no one is saved in Hell. Can't be Heaven, there's no fire in Heaven! So what is it? What is this fire that we are going to have to pass through on our way to eternal life? Could it be ... Purgatory??

That's what all the Church fathers (and mothers) believed -- right up till the time of the Reformation, anyway.

One more thing - Purgatory is not, as it is sometimes characterized, a place where a sinner will have a "second chance" to repent. Your soul will ALREADY have been judged before you get there! You are going to end up in Heaven or in Hell. Purgatory is simply the gate that you pass through on your way to Heaven -- but you have to have your ticket punched before you can get there!

Hope this helps clarify things -- even if you don't agree with Catholic teaching, at least maybe you can see why we don't think it is unscriptural to hold it.

Love, :-)

-- Christine L. (christinelehman@hotmail.com), August 15, 2002.

Marvelous "teamwork," Gail, Jake, Vincent, and Christine! Pleasure to read your truthful and emphatic helps to Kevin. (And I learn a lot from you too, all the time!)
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 17, 2002.

It is interesting to note that an earlier post didn't highlight the following verse:

John 6:63 "IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE, THE FLESH IS OF NO AVAIL; THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE."

And this is not a "HARD TEACHING" at all for anyone who is willing to accept it.

Another post tries to say that Matthew 5:25-26 speaks of some mythical prison?

Ha!!!

This is speaking not of heaven nor of hell, but of a prison right here on earth.

So, this does not speak of Purgatory.

Then an attempt is made to use to use 1 Cor 3:12-15 as a second example to justify Purgatory.

Wrong again.

This passage plainly speaks of those who preach the gospel (Paul in verse 6) and those who teach new converts to grow (Apollos in verse 6). What this means is on the judgment day, there will be those who have been Christians who have fallen away and even though they were once saved and had a teacher to teach them to grow in grace and knowlege, they were like the "one talent man" of Matthew 25:24-30 in that they did not grow as Christians are commanded to do.

So, this being the case the unfaithful Christian would be lost and burn in Hell forever.

So, once again, this is NOT Purgatory.

So much for the comment that some posts were "Truthful".

-- Concerned (noemail@noemail.com), August 17, 2002.

Well, earth is a sort of 'purgatory' in that our characters and spirits are refined by our various testings and so forth. But the carnal Christian is certainly NOT going to take his carnal earthly man into the presence of God. PERIOD.

I really can't follow your arguments "Concerned". Your scriptural quotes and YOUR interpretations don't even make sense. 1 Cor clearly states that the believer will be tried by fire, his wood, hay and stubble will be burned up. He, himself will be saved, but only as through fire. It does not say he will go to hell like you suggested.

Ah, though, every man is his own god when it comes to scripture interpretation, no? Your interpretation is at odds with 2,000 years of Christian history, and all the Church fathers, INCLUDING AUGUSTINE, ST. JEROME, IGNATIUS, and NUMEROUS OTHERS, all of whom were martyred for their faith, but I guess your "special," you got a "special anointing to interpret scripture." Hey, perhaps you should start your own church! That's what most Protestants do when they get a "revelation"

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 18, 2002.

Thanks, Concerned, for quoting John 6:63.
Contrary to the "anti-Eucharistic" spin that your misinterpretation tries to put on the verse, St. John's words actually support what was said earlier in the thread. You see, you need to find out what Jesus actually meant, rather than try to force us to believe what you want Jesus to have meant. Are you interested in learning? Thanks.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 18, 2002.

Nice interpretation, "concerned", but that's all it is. Is this the grounds that all the protestant sects use to refute the true presents? I don't think so!

If when Jesus said that He was speaking of Spirt, He meant that you don't really have to eat His Body and Blood, and that this teaching really wasn't "hard", then why didn't all the desciples and Jews understand and continue to walk with Him? There's no doubt He spoke the words you quoted, but you have taken them out of context.

Jesus meant that his flesh wasn't just carnal nurishment, but Spiritual nurishment! This was why they murmured, because they were thinking that Jesus was talking about canabalism (when you eat human flesh for carnal nurishment). But Jesus cleared it up; His Flesh is Spiritual nurishment! Jesus didn't take back what He had previously said! He clarified it. He was saying that unless we eat His Body and Drink His Blood we have no Spiritual (eternal life)in us. Therefore, while you take it to mean that Jesus' flesh is of no avail, what Jesus really meant was that our flesh was of no avail. Of course Jesus' flesh is eternal, thus it IS of avail! And unless we eat His eternal flesh, we will NOT have eternal life (with Him) in us! But many of the desciples STILL could not grasp this, and left him. If it wasn't a big deal, why did Jesus turn to his Apostles and ask if they would leave?

Wow! I must admit that I had a bit of trouble reading that part too, though in my ignorance I still believed. But while writing this letter, it just made sense. I hope that the same vail that just was lifter from me on that particular line, will be lifted from you and all those who don't understand.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 18, 2002.

After my revelation during the my last post I went back and re-read John, 6. It now makes perfect sense!

We must look at the begining of the whole conversation. Jesus multiplied the food. Now, after he walked on water and is on the other side of the river, the crowds follow him. Why? Because He gave them food! The were hungry physically! Jesus knows this, and knows their physical need. But he basically tells them, I will give you physical food (my flesh), but it won't just be for your physical nurishment like your ansestors in the desert, my flesh will become "spiritual nurishment". Jesus said that the Isrealits were given manna in the desert but they died (phyisically and spiritually). Jesus basically says to the crowds if you eat my flesh and drink my blood, yes you will die physically (because your flesh is of no avail - or no use), HOWEVER you will NOT die spiritually because the words I am talking about are of SPIRIT and LIfE! The crowds still had hunger on their minds, and the fact that their ansesters were given manna to satisfy their physical hunger, so they could not see that Jesus wasn't talking about their carnal hunger, but their spiritual hunger!

Also note: The sentence before, in which Jesus says, "Are you offended at this? Then what about when the Son of Man rises...", didn't seem to fit. But now it does! He's showing them that His Flesh and Blood are eternal, unlike ours! His Flesh and Blood will sustain us spiritually for eternity.

I still don't feel justified simply stating in words what is so clear to me now. But all I can do is present words - the Spirti will provide the needed understanding.

- Also noteworthy. After writing my first post and having my eyes opened to the truth about that "questionable" sentance, and after re- reading Johns account, I told this to my mother (who is now in Vancouver getting ready for that cruise). She has a better Bible with foot notes. She said the footnotes basically said exactly what I am saying - but I didn't know at the time! God is so great, and He will reveal to you exactly what you need to know (the Truth), as long as you accept Him and His Church!

Thank you Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior - you have the words of eternal life!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 19, 2002.

You might just want to ask yourself ... why did ALL Christians up to the time of the Reformation -- and for quite a long time afterwards -- believe that these passages DID refer to Purgatory?

Did Christ allow His followers to be completely deceived, and in such an important matter, for thousands of years? If so, then how can His promise that the "jaws of Hell would not prevail" against His Church, and that the Holy Spirit "would lead [them] into all truth" be taken seriously?

-- Christine L. (christinelehman@hotmail.com), August 19, 2002.

Jake, I think you mean real "presence" not "presents", as in gifts. Sorry, I'm a spelling snob!

I wonder if Concerned is concerned enough to come back and finish the debate, or whether Concerned is just another hit-and-runner! I would bet the latter!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 19, 2002.

You're probably right, Gail!

Still, it's good to get this stuff out in the open. Maybe some "lurker" will see it, read it and realize he/she's misunderstood the doctrine, and try to find out more.

Love, :-)

-- Christine L. (christinelehman@hotmail.com), August 19, 2002.

You're right Gail! I am not a very good speller (I kinda dodged that part of college - whew!), and thank goodness for spell check. Unfortunately when you mix up the meaning of two words that sound the same spell check doesn’t work. They should have something that checks words with the contents of the sentence to make sure it makes sense. In any event, I hope that any "lurkers" will get the meaning of what I posted.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), August 19, 2002.